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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Isaac is playable. Isaac is playable. Isaac is playable.

If I say it enough, it must be true.

Isaac is playable. Isaac is in. Isaac is a playable fighter in Smash Ultimate.

In less than 24 hours, we will know the truth.
 

Dhragen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
132
Location
Puerto Montt, Chile
NNID
Dhragen
I have the same fear like the others about the possibility of our Golden Boy being an AT, but i feel there could be a small posibility that maybe he could be both..? Like making his AT with his adult appearence (which makes sense since he has a more supporting role in Dark Dawn), and his young appearence being playable with Matthew as an alt, so you can pair both versions of isaac or pair both dad and son on the game.

It's very ridiculous to think about that, so its understandable if you dont take my idea seriously, heheh.
 

StrawHatX

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
1,086
So what’s do you guys think of the theory that a lot of these sources that some of the “insiders” have actually saw Matthew as an assist trophy and they thought it was Isaac. That’s why half the insiders say he’s playable and half say he’s an assist trophy.

And the reason the Matthew assist trophy hasn’t been shown off yet because it would then be clear Isaac is a playable character. So once Isaac is revealed we’ll see the Matthew AT.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Can I post this again for you all?
6E9DFD0F-4192-48CF-8BC8-57F47DB5FE6E.jpeg

Don’t forget it’s all about the ballot and sakurai’s picks from the past that he wanted but didn't work out
 
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ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
So what’s do you guys think of the theory that a lot of these sources that some of the “insiders” have actually saw Matthew as an assist trophy and they thought it was Isaac. That’s why half the insiders say he’s playable and half say he’s an assist trophy.

And the reason the Matthew assist trophy hasn’t been shown off yet because it would then be clear Isaac is a playable character. So once Isaac is revealed we’ll see the Matthew AT.
Is there any kind or proof that such a thing happened?

It'd be hilarious if true, but I'm wondering where this idea is coming from.
 

StrawHatX

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
1,086
Is there any kind or proof that such a thing happened?

It'd be hilarious if true, but I'm wondering where this idea is coming from.
There is no proof. It’s just the theory that they look so similar some of the sources saw him and figured it was Isaac. That’s why there is so much conflicting info with insiders on Isaac.
 

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
The Grinch Leak is pretty much an ESRB situation without the videos. Nobody, besides Artsy Omni, has actually tried to debunk the leak without resorting to "my sources say otherwise" and he still was unable to say anything conclusive about the character portrait based on what he deduced. He even stated he will not contribute anymore to the Grinch Leak:

1541023923093.png

Source: https://twitter.com/artsyomni/status/1056645513766952960

1541024019846.png

Source: https://twitter.com/artsyomni/status/1056644339437395968
 

Organization XIII

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
2,083
And trust me, if he doesn't make it into the base game, his chances of DLC are as strong there. Isaac's demand is quite amazing honestly, I've come across a lot of lists that have him on it, some of which are from very popular people in the community.
I don't trust you and my reasons were made quite plain already. It is foolish to think that Isaac will be DLC if that wasn't even good enough to get back an assist trophy. And you know what back in Smash 4 he was just as popular and people were so sure that the AT not being there opened the gates for Isaac to be DLC. It didn't happen there it won't happen here. You can hold out hope if you'd like but if popularity didn't make a difference now why is it going to for DLC? No, I'd much rather hedge our bets on AT promotion because at least in that scenario our popularity got him something and that means a whole more than "oh he's not here so he' been saved for DLC.. maybe.. probably.. possibly"
 
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KoopaDasher

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
18
Pull yourselves together, friends. Remember the image. It's far too good to be fake. Far too different from the source to be edited.
 

spaceperson741

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
35
The Grinch Leak is pretty much an ESRB situation without the videos. Nobody, besides Artsy Omni, has actually tried to debunk the leak without resorting to "my sources say otherwise" and he still was unable to say anything conclusive about the character portrait based on what he deduced. He even stated he will not contribute anymore to the Grinch Leak:


Source: https://twitter.com/artsyomni/status/1056645513766952960


Source: https://twitter.com/artsyomni/status/1056644339437395968
Omni's one of the best people covering the leak. He hasn't picked sides. He acknowledges the possibility that he's wrong, and doesn't shove it down people's throats that they're stupid for disagreeing. In fact, if memory serves, he appeared amicably on a discussion about the leak, and it wasn't even about debating it, just talking about it.
 

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
Omni's one of the best people covering the leak. He hasn't picked sides. He acknowledges the possibility that he's wrong, and doesn't shove it down people's throats that they're stupid for disagreeing. In fact, if memory serves, he appeared amicably on a discussion about the leak, and it wasn't even about debating it, just talking about it.
At least Artsy Omni tried to prove the Grinch Leak was fake without using the "my sources said so". For handling it that way he has my respect.
 

TechnoHighlander

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
6
Hey fellow Isaac fans! I have been a reader of these posts ever since the rathalos pic and this board is like a breath of fresh air compared to Gamefaqs.
Personally, I find the speculation around this Grinch Leak is very fun to discuss and I just thought I would add a few things in.
Lets break the leak down and present it like a Danganronpa Class Trial.

Note: I am not a serious analytic of any sorts. I am just trying to pull together what has already been said about the Grinch Leak.

The final trail for the Grinch Leak is now in session:

Fitting Music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLfU6UP2Dj4

CASE:

On Wednesday the 24th of October, an anonymous 4Chan user
posted a picture from Snapchat depicting what could be actual
legit banner instructions for a mural displaying all the characters
in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

TRUTH BULLETS:

.The Leak in question
.Grinch Promotional Material
.Grinch Movie and Smash Ultimate release dates
.ACP PLV
.Linkedin Name
.The Autocad Commands
.Deleted ACP PLV Youtube Video
.Attention To Detail
.Banner instructions
.Multiple banner layers
.Gematsu Leak Accuracy/Chorus Kids + Chrom
.Evidence for each characters Inclusion
.PapaGeno's Source Account
.Marina's Denial Statement
.Blurred Picture
.Background Inconsistancies
.Mashiro Sakurai's Statement
.Evidence for opposing characters
.Gamexplain/Spawnwave/Nintendo Life's Source Accounts
.Vergebans Source Account
.Emily Rodgers Source Account

It would take too long for me to explain each Truth Bullet, but plenty have of users have explained each of these much better then I can. Sure I have missed a few too. I am trying to present this fairly so arguments against the leak also count as a Truth Bullet.

This may be unpopular opinion, but I did not count Chadgannon on this because these characters are common requests and I think the Chadgannon
post having the same characters is a coincidence.

CONCLUSION:

If Fake, clearly more than one person was involved because NO WAY is one person able to produce new artwork so meticulously and have access to professional printing gear AND have so much knowledge on who is likely to get into smash bros.

I personally believe if it is Fake, 3 people did this:

1. An artist hired to draw renders of characters, the background and mix them together.

2. The Linkedin guy at ACP hired to print the fake art, interrupting his work on The Grinch promotional material.

3. The Mastermind instructing these 2, telling them how it should go together, plotting what characters to use and ultimately leaking the fake work.


I can not say for certainty that this is 100% real thanks to the insiders, I am still on the fence and I will be up until the direct but here is hoping Isaac is given a slot as a fighter.

On a final note, if Fake it will be really disappointing but none of us are to feel stupid because this was a meticulously well crafted leak and
the speculation has been very fun regardless of its legitimacy.

The only bad thing asides disappointment would be the flame wars evoked on the net. Worst case scenario if real, that means someone is in big trouble for this leak same with 2014's ESRB but it should serve as a warning not to break NDA's.

Thank you anyone who read my super long post. Please add what you think of how this leak came about.
 

Dihan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
90
Location
Wales
My main issue with Assist Trophy Isaac is that 'Move' hardly represents all that Golden Sun has to offer. I suppose I'd be ok with an Assist that did more than Move, but at that point why not just make a full character...
 

Ninetales Commander

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
36
I see far less hope of having Isaac magically be DLC when his popularity meant nothing than having an AT back and hoping for the chance ATs get upgraded through DLC.
I don't understand this comment, Little Mac and Isabelle have both been promoted to playable from assist so there's no reason for Isaac to not be.
Besides, Isaac not being in the base roster doesn't mean he wasn't popular, it could have been that they simply didn't have the time to include him in the base game and decided to hold him off for DLC. I mean, Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta are way more popular than Isaac and they had no problem adding them as DLC so there's no reason Isaac wouldn't be.
 

TappyBat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
596
Hey fellow Isaac fans! I have been a reader of these posts ever since the rathalos pic and this board is like a breath of fresh air compared to Gamefaqs.
Personally, I find the speculation around this Grinch Leak is very fun to discuss and I just thought I would add a few things in.
Lets break the leak down and present it like a Danganronpa Class Trial.

Note: I am not a serious analytic of any sorts. I am just trying to pull together what has already been said about the Grinch Leak.

The final trail for the Grinch Leak is now in session:

Fitting Music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLfU6UP2Dj4

CASE:

On Wednesday the 24th of October, an anonymous 4Chan user
posted a picture from Snapchat depicting what could be actual
legit banner instructions for a mural displaying all the characters
in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

TRUTH BULLETS:

.The Leak in question
.Grinch Promotional Material
.Grinch Movie and Smash Ultimate release dates
.ACP PLV
.Linkedin Name
.The Autocad Commands
.Deleted ACP PLV Youtube Video
.Attention To Detail
.Banner instructions
.Multiple banner layers
.Gematsu Leak Accuracy/Chorus Kids + Chrom
.Evidence for each characters Inclusion
.PapaGeno's Source Account
.Marina's Denial Statement
.Blurred Picture
.Background Inconsistancies
.Mashiro Sakurai's Statement
.Evidence for opposing characters
.Gamexplain/Spawnwave/Nintendo Life's Source Accounts
.Vergebans Source Account
.Emily Rodgers Source Account

It would take too long for me to explain each Truth Bullet, but plenty have of users have explained each of these much better then I can. Sure I have missed a few too. I am trying to present this fairly so arguments against the leak also count as a Truth Bullet.

This may be unpopular opinion, but I did not count Chadgannon on this because these characters are common requests and I think the Chadgannon
post having the same characters is a coincidence.

CONCLUSION:

If Fake, clearly more than one person was involved because NO WAY is one person able to produce new artwork so meticulously and have access to professional printing gear AND have so much knowledge on who is likely to get into smash bros.

I personally believe if it is Fake, 3 people did this:

1. An artist hired to draw renders of characters, the background and mix them together.

2. The Linkedin guy at ACP hired to print the fake art, interrupting his work on The Grinch promotional material.

3. The Mastermind instructing these 2, telling them how it should go together, plotting what characters to use and ultimately leaking the fake work.


I can not say for certainty that this is 100% real thanks to the insiders, I am still on the fence and I will be up until the direct but here is hoping Isaac is given a slot as a fighter.

On a final note, if Fake it will be really disappointing but none of us are to feel stupid because this was a meticulously well crafted leak and
the speculation has been very fun regardless of its legitimacy.

The only bad thing asides disappointment would be the flame wars evoked on the net. Worst case scenario if real, that means someone is in big trouble for this leak same with 2014's ESRB but it should serve as a warning not to break NDA's.

Thank you anyone who read my super long post. Please add what you think of how this leak came about.
oh hi keebo! :3
 

Golden Icarus

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,132
Location
USA
papagenos papagenos always manages to comfort me lol

Alpharad also made a really good video going over the pros of the leak.

With the amount of people still convinced that this is real, I can not imagine the idea that someone managed to pull a fake like this off. Even after being a strong believer in everything Vergeben has said, I’m going against him and 100% backing Team Real. I will not be one bit ashamed if I’m wrong.
 

Delta64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 25, 2014
Messages
373
Just a reminder of how reveals have been handled in Ultimate up to this point:

Nintendo Direct March 2018 (Smash is teased): Inkling is shown in the tease (pretty much confirming they are playable). (Inkling appeals to casual Nintendo fans)

Nintendo E3 2018 Smash segment: Daisy and Ridley are revealed (Daisy for casual Nintendo fans and Ridley for Smash fans).

Smash Direct August 2018: Simon/Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus, King K. Rool. (Simon, Chrom, Dark Samus, and King K. Rool were all highly requested by Smash fans).

Nintendo Direct September 2018: Isabelle is revealed (Isabelle appeals to casual Nintendo fans).

If I had to guess, the reveals in this smash direct will focus on characters requested by Smash fans. Just like the last Smash direct.
 
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TempestSurge

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
832
My main issue with Assist Trophy Isaac is that 'Move' hardly represents all that Golden Sun has to offer. I suppose I'd be ok with an Assist that did more than Move, but at that point why not just make a full character...
Which is the thing, no returning assist has changed what they've been made to do upon their first implementation so Isaac will be no different. If he was shown off at E3 or August the initial disappointment would have worn off by now. But Sakurai saving his assist for the final direct? Nah, I can't see him doing that with no payoff.
 

Organization XIII

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
2,083
I don't understand this comment, Little Mac and Isabelle have both been promoted to playable from assist so there's no reason for Isaac to not be.
Besides, Isaac not being in the base roster doesn't mean he wasn't popular, it could have been that they simply didn't have the time to include him in the base game and decided to hold him off for DLC. I mean, Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta are way more popular than Isaac and they had no problem adding them as DLC so there's no reason Isaac wouldn't be.
It's not that he isn't popular. I know he's popular but if his AT can't he be added back something less popular characters get I can't see us getting him as DLC. If he was intended for base yeah that's a little different there's a chance then but until the data miners find the Isaac file in Ultimate don't think he has a chance to be DLC if his popularity meant so little he couldn't even get an assist trophy.
 

Deathcarter

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,358
Good afternoon Isaac thread. I'm simply a poster who's not a Golden Sun fan (though I've played Dark Dawn) and is pretty much only interested in Isaac on the basis of him being a cute anime boy with more moveset potential than most of the existing roster so I'm looking at the latest Isaac drama as somebody with no real investment in your series but I'd been thinking about the character more since's he's come back into the broader discussion so I'd like to give my two cents on him. Ignoring everything about the Grinch Leak, the leakers, that item, the Rathalos tweet for a second and just discussing Isaac's merits as a character, outside of Incineroar I honestly see the boy as the front runner of the remaining 1st parties and I don't see anybody else outside of Skull Kid who really compares with him:

-He's pretty much the only widely popular choice for a non-retro new series rep remaining given Rhythm Heaven's obscurity in the West and pretty much everything else is a lot more niche than even Golden Sun or is something like Nintendoland which everybody including Nintendo themselves forgot about.
-We know he's hugely popular with online audiences, the audience this game has made a specific point of catering towards, not only with Ridley and K-Rool but also with many of the changes to the gameplay.
-Sakurai has a tendency to add a more niche non-retro franchise each game, see Ness, Marth, Olimar and Shulk. Yeah those series were actually relevant when they got in but relevancy hardly matters this time given the presence of Dark Samus and K. Rool. Isaac would even share similar timing with Shulk and Olimar, two character who represented newly represented niche franchises revealed late in the pre-release cycle.
-Pokémon aside, Sakurai generally tends to go with central characters even if they're from a somewhat niche franchise over tertiary characters from a more known series. Rosalina is pretty much the only exception who isn't an easy clone or was a part of a transformation gimmick and she's a lot bigger than characters like Majora or Bandana Dee. Granted Elma is also essentially the main character in her game but the ballot was long over by the time her game released in the West so I don't think Sakurai would choose her over characters who's popularity are more certain.

Regardless of whether the Grinch Leak is real or what some leakers like Vergeban say (I think the leak is real personally, ACP-PLV's behavior is pretty fishy imo), Isaac just comes off as one of the strongest choices for a late reveal and I'd say y'all should continue to have confidence that your boy will pull through. Thank you folks for taking the time to read this post.
 
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KoopaDasher

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
18


I just wanted to draw attention to a few things that I don't see anyone mentioning.

First of all, look at Daisy. Completely moved to now be behind Sonic.
Olimar, Pikmin, and Mr Saturn, moved in front of Greninja and Snake.
Mii Fighter and Mii Gunner, moved from two locations to being next to King K Rool.
Sheik has been moved left, to be directly over Bowser's head.
Yoshi has been moved right, giving more space between himself and Bowser.
Isabel is now behind Cloud.
Pikachu is now in front of Cloud's sword.
Samus has been shifted right to be above Zelda.
Diddy Kong was also moved right, but not by as much.
Kirby has been moved up and left.
So have Fox and Wolf.
Inkling Girl was moved left.
Ness now matches Marth's head level.
Pokemon Trainer, Ivysaur, and Squirtle moved right, and the space between them decreased.
Jigglypuff now above Ness.
Luigi and ROB have both been moved, but I can't tell where.

I say all this to say this: This banner is only available as a single image. Whoever did this moved all of these character images relative to one another, without leaving "holes" behind in the image, which would be nearly impossible for someone to do with the banner image alone.

Add to that the fact that none of the leaked character images appear to match any existing renders, and it becomes nearly impossible for someone to do this as a fake. If it is a fake, I believe someone with access to the individual character images made it. But I do believe it is legitimate.
 
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Ledfarmer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
7
I still believe Isaac is in. There’s just been so many clues and hints, I don’t think Vergeben’s words alone should make everyone give up hope entirely.

...But if he is an AT, will anyone join my #Kraden4DLC campaign?
 

?!?!?!

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
585
I still believe Isaac is in. There’s just been so many clues and hints, I don’t think Vergeben’s words alone should make everyone give up hope entirely.

...But if he is an AT, will anyone join my #Kraden4DLC campaign?
Idk bout that one chief
 

Ninetales Commander

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
36


I just wanted to draw attention to a few things that I don't see anyone mentioning.

First of all, look at Daisy. Completely moved to now be behind Sonic.
Olimar, Pikmin, and Mr Saturn, moved in front of Greninja and Snake.
Mii Fighter and Mii Gunner, moved from two locations to being next to King K Rool.
Sheik has been moved left, to be directly over Bowser's head.
Yoshi has been moved right, giving more space between himself and Bowser.
Isabel is now behind Cloud.
Pikachu is now in front of Cloud's sword.
Samus has been shifted right to be above Zelda.
Diddy Kong was also moved right, but not by as much.
Kirby has been moved up and left.
So have Fox and Wolf.
Inkling Girl was moved left.
Ness now matches Marth's head level.
Pokemon Trainer, Ivysaur, and Squirtle moved right, and the space between them decreased.
Jigglypuff now above Ness.
Luigi and ROB have both been moved, but I can't tell where.

I say all this to say this: This banner is only available as a single image. Whoever did this moved all of these character images relative to one another, without leaving "holes" behind in the image, which would be nearly impossible for someone to do with the banner image alone.

Add to that the fact that none of the leaked character images appear to match any existing renders, and it becomes nearly impossible for someone to do this as a fake. If it is a fake, I believe someone with access to the individual character images made it. But I do believe it is legitimate.
This is what I'm talking about, as someone that has Photoshopped for years and knows what level of work something like this would need, it would be almost impossible to fake this UNLESS it was made by someone from within the business that has access to the renders and backgrounds.
Edit: And even if that's true, why the phone quality screenshot? If I had access to those files and I wanted to trick people into thinking it's real, I would want to make the images as clear as possible, not take a screenshot from a mobile phone.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I still believe Isaac is in. There’s just been so many clues and hints, I don’t think Vergeben’s words alone should make everyone give up hope entirely.

...But if he is an AT, will anyone join my #Kraden4DLC campaign?
Your right ? ?!?!?! That ain’t it chief
 
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Jibunzo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
23
Location
Nebraska
papagenos papagenos always manages to comfort me lol

Alpharad also made a really good video going over the pros of the leak.

With the amount of people still convinced that this is real, I can not imagine the idea that someone managed to pull a fake like this off. Even after being a strong believer in everything Vergeben has said, I’m going against him and 100% backing Team Real. I will not be one bit ashamed if I’m wrong.
Fear and doubt cloud my mind, but every time I see a message from the Baz, I feel better. Golden Icarus Golden Icarus keep posting, and be my guiding light.
 

Ledfarmer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
7
Idk bout that one chief
His normals are him hitting people with books or scrolls or his beard, and his down-b is like Sing except Kraden just starts talking and nearby opponents fall asleep. And then his side-b is like wario’s bike except it’s the Grinch’s sleigh
 

?!?!?!

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
585
His normals are him hitting people with books or scrolls or his beard, and his down-b is like Sing except Kraden just starts talking and nearby opponents fall asleep. And then his side-b is like wario’s bike except it’s the Grinch’s sleigh
Sounds like perfect assist trophy material.
 

jweb23

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
416
PapaGeno brought up an interesting point!

What if adult Isaac from Dark Dawn is an Assist Trophy but teenage Isaac from the first two games is playable?

We have Samus and Zero Suit Samus as well as Mario and Dr. Mario who are literally the same exact people but are different playable characters!

It wouldn’t shock me if Sakurai tried to troll the Isaac fans like he did the King K Rool fans last direct.
 
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StrawHatX

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
1,086
PapaGeno brought up an interesting point!

What if adult Isaac from Dark Dawn is an Assist Trophy but teenage Isaac from the first two games is playable?

We have Samus and Zero Suit Samus as well as Mario and Dr. Mario who are literally the same exact people but are different playable characters!

It wouldn’t shock me if Sakurai tried to troll the Isaac fans like he did the King K Rool fans last direct.
It’s possible. It’s also possible Matthew is an AT and some sources got confused and said “that Golden Sun guy is an AT”.

We’ll find out tomorrow.
 
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