Super Smash Con 2015 Ruleset

[Shears]

Discuss and vote on what you would like the ruleset for smash con to be.

Official Super Smash Con Ruleset:

General Rules

·Game Settings: 5 Stocks, Optional 8 Minute Time Limit

·Items are disabled.

·Accidental pausing mid match forfeits a stock.

·A tie is determined by most stocks, and then if still tied, by percentage.


Doubles Rules

·Friendly Fire enabled

·Life stealing stocks from a teammate is allowed


Stage List

Neutral Stages

·Dream Land



Match Procedure

1.Players select their characters. Either player may choose to Blind Pick. In this case, each player secretly tells a third player their character before picking with the third player verifying their selections.

2.Players play Rock-Paper-Scissors. Winner chooses controller port.

3.The players play the first match of the set.

4.The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change characters.

5.The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change characters.

6.The losing player of the preceding match may change their controller port.

7.The next match is played.

8.Repeat steps 4-7 until best of 3, or best of 5 for Top 8, is finished.


Additional Rules

·Optional Timer: There is an optional 8 minute timer a player/team can request before the start of a game. If requested by any player or team, the match will have an 8 minute timer. The player/team must seek a TO to oversee the match with a timer. The timer will be placed next to the TV so both players/teams can see it. If the timer is up and the match is not finished the TO will declare the victor using the tie breaking rules.

·Stalling (if option timer is not invoked): Excessive unwillingness to engage the opponent is disallowed at the risk of being forced to forfeit the match by the TO. If there is no movement from either player, the losing player is considered to be stalling.

·Neutral Start: The following ports are to be used when a player/team invokes the neutral start rule:

Singles: Port 2, Port 4
Doubles: Team A, Team B, Team B, Team A

 

[BananaBolts]

One of the issues I have with polls like this is say I vote DL only, no timer, 5 stock. Then, DL loses the poll to Hyrule but no timer wins. Now we have Hyrule in the mix and my vote counted towards no timer but if I had to choose Hyrule, I would have chosen (for example) a mandatory 10 minute timer.

I wish the poll system was designed a bit better.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I voted for DL only despite being an enforcer of the 4 stage list lel

 

[MrMarbles]

i dont see any reason to not have a timer guys. at least make it optional by request

 

[Shears]

One of the issues I have with polls like this is say I vote DL only, no timer, 5 stock. Then, DL loses the poll to Hyrule but no timer wins. Now we have Hyrule in the mix and my vote counted towards no timer but if I had to choose Hyrule, I would have chosen (for example) a mandatory 10 minute timer.

I wish the poll system was designed a bit better.

Vote what you want. If everyone does this and doesn't try to manipulate the poll then I'm pretty sure we won't have this issue. Its unlikely the results are going to come down to a single vote thats going to turn the whole thing upside down. Vote what you want independent of anyone else and things will work out fine. You're raising a concern for something that hasn't happened yet and all that leads to is people ruining the integrity of something helpful. Seriously though, why are people so pessimistic in this community and always trying to ruin everything for everyone? Like just help out and be constructive instead of nitpicking for things to break a good system.

"What if a nuclear war starts at smashcon and blows up DC and the event and the last stage I play is DL because I voted DL when I would rather have my last living memory be Hyrule because that stage is more fun? I would've voted Hyrule then if I knew in the future that Russia @The Star King was going to blow us all up." - @ BananaBolts 4/28/2015

To be honest, I didn't even have to create a poll, Nintendude and I could have just used his dictatordude powers and made the ruleset whatever we wanted.

 

[BananaBolts]

I'm not trying to be pessimistic. I'm just stating the obvious flaw in the poll system. The data will be inaccurate, that's all I'm saying. It's not nitpicking when it's a legitimate issue that should be reconfigured, presumably by Warchamp. I was getting ready to vote when I noticed and it bothers me to a small extent. If I want to vote on something, I'd hope that my vote counts towards the exact purpose that I intend it to count towards.

In regards to this thread, or rather your other Smash con thread, I appreciate the attempts to spur discussion.

To be honest, I didn't even have to create a poll, Nintendude and I could have just used his dictatordude powers and made the ruleset whatever we wanted.

What's up with this passive aggressiveness, Shears?

"What if a nuclear war starts at smashcon and blows up DC and the event and the last stage I play is DL because I voted DL when I would rather have my last living memory be Hyrule because that stage is more fun? I would've voted Hyrule then if I knew in the future that Russia @The Star King was going to blow us all up." - @ BananaBolts 4/28/2015

Now you're just being a jerk. I voiced a legitimate concern and now you're just mocking me. Thanks, dude.

 

[Shears]

These "concerns" are raised in every discussion by every person everywhere in the smash community. Its like the community is its own cancer. If you definitely want a timer for Hyrule but feel a timer is not necessary for DL, do you think the timer is actually counterproductive on a DL only ruleset which is what you want? Probably not, so vote for the timer and DL only and you solved your own problem. This passive aggressiveness comes from my impatience with explaining why a discussion is taking place and nuances of it instead of actually taking part in the heart of the discussion. Discussions get derailed into criticism instead of being enlightening because of people raising minor concerns. Maybe you didn't have the intent to be as destructive as I interpreted it, but with how commonplace that destruction is its easy for me to assume that is the intent. I go back to the timer discussion thread I created over a year ago and it was the first time I really got involved in a discussion that I was trying to pioneer and direct to improve the community and the thread turned into a junkyard of pessimistic theorists to be as corrosive as possible. I've seen it so many times that I can't great even the smallest comments that may be meaningless but present the smallest amount of toxicity with any bit of respect. You're guilty by association, if thats unsettling then sorry you took it harshly but in all honesty I don't have respect for any bit of negativity and hole punching.

I also find myself having to figure out peoples answers for themselves because they couldn't figure it out on their own and that is so frustrating to have people discredit something because they were not inventive enough or had even the common sense to see past the wall they put up themselves. Whats holding people back is their inability to put a foot in front of the other and because they can't imagine the possibility of it they will instead stand still as the world crumbles around them instead of wasting a calorie to chance a step in any direction whether its the right or wrong way.

 

[BananaBolts]

If you definitely want a timer for Hyrule but feel a timer is not necessary for DL, do you think the timer is actually counterproductive on a DL only ruleset which is what you want? Probably not, so vote for the timer and DL only and you solved your own problem.

This doesn't solve the problem. Requiring every setup to have a timer is a big deal and its enforcement is really difficult. What kind of community would we be if we never thought of the side effects or the flaws in a system? We'd be a circlejerk community.

You're guilty by association, if thats unsettling then sorry you took it harshly but in all honesty I don't have respect for any bit of negativity and hole punching.

I'm not just trying to punch holes in this. I'd like to see a proper solution, it's that simple. This "negativity" is often an attempt at constructive criticism but you, as a forum member, have become really defensive against any "negative" comment that arises.

Back to the OP discussion, I'd like to see Smash Con do DL only. From what I know, the 64 community in the US hasn't held a big tournament with DL only so we might as well try it. I just don't see Hyrule as a legit neutral due to campy playstyles. Hyrule is so fun when people actually play like respectable people but when they just sit there and camp it sucks. If timer implementation weren't so difficult, I could be pro-Hyrule. I'd love to see an end-all solution to timer issues.

 

[Phislamajama]

well this train derailed rather quickly

 

[$$$ Jim $$$]

i think it's about time to transition to 4 stocks. i can't remember the last time i saw a set whose outcome was changed by having an additional stock, and having shorter games means tournaments don't drag on for quite so long.

it seems like any argument for doing 5 stocks instead of 4 stocks could also be applied to saying we should do 6 stocks instead of 5 stocks. the only difference is that we're used to doing 5, so people are reluctant to change.

 

[BananaBolts]

Ehhh, if it's DL only, 5 stocks is probably best. The number of stocks isn't necessarily intended for comebacks (comebacks are combacks no matter if it's 4 or 5 stocks); it's likely intended for the optimal number of stocks for the speed at which matches are played.

 

[Synesthesia]

As a player, and a long-time viewer to a lot of the major tournaments. I think a timer should be implemented and Hyrule should be a legal stage. My opinion may be slightly biased, because I do love Hyrule, but watching and playing a dreamland only tournament is kind of boring. On the same note, watching campy Hyrule matches is boring as-well. A timer on Hyrule completely takes away this concern, and allows for the stage to be legal. We're trying to bring viewers and players into the 64 community and limiting our stages and character choices(link is garbage on dreamland) really takes away from the enjoyment of new players and viewers. I personally love seeing the crazy combos pulled off in the tent, and I don't want that to be something that dies out. Implement a timer, I'm sure it will be rare that the timer actually has to decide the outcome of the game. Just the fact that it's in place will cause the players to play more quickly, and less campy towards the end of the match, and make for much more interesting to watch sets.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I voted for timer optional. I'd like it to be mandatory but I know first hand the kind of red tape nightmare that is standardizing mandatory external equipment into a vanilla game

 

[Sedda]

As a player, and a long-time viewer to a lot of the major tournaments. I think a timer should be implemented and Hyrule should be a legal stage. My opinion may be slightly biased, because I do love Hyrule, but watching and playing a dreamland only tournament is kind of boring. On the same note, watching campy Hyrule matches is boring as-well. A timer on Hyrule completely takes away this concern, and allows for the stage to be legal. We're trying to bring viewers and players into the 64 community and limiting our stages and character choices(link is garbage on dreamland) really takes away from the enjoyment of new players and viewers. I personally love seeing the crazy combos pulled off in the tent, and I don't want that to be something that dies out. Implement a timer, I'm sure it will be rare that the timer actually has to decide the outcome of the game. Just the fact that it's in place will cause the players to play more quickly, and less campy towards the end of the match, and make for much more interesting to watch sets.

hyrule + timer doesnt take away camping. it just makes it so that camping can be done for 8 minutes which is also boring.

I love Hyrule, but it's a bad idea in tournaments.

also, people, stahp. link is so good omg

 

[felipe_9595]

5 Stocks, DL Only, optional timer. I have yet to see a +5 minutes match in Dreamland.

Also, this is the Chilean ruleset since 2006 XDDD

 

[Synesthesia]

hyrule + timer doesnt take away camping. it just makes it so that camping can be done for 8 minutes which is also boring.

I love Hyrule, but it's a bad idea in tournaments.

also, people, stahp. link is so good omg

Having to sit through 1 or 2 campy matches is better than banning the entire stage from all future tournaments. It's a price I'd gladly pay. Not everyone plays super campy so every match would not be like this just a few.

 

[Shears]

I have yet to see a +5 minutes match in Dreamland.

You haven't played m2k then. I had a bo5 set with him take literally an hour.

 

[Fireblaster]

Having to sit through 1 or 2 campy matches is better than banning the entire stage from all future tournaments. It's a price I'd gladly pay. Not everyone plays super campy so every match would not be like this just a few.

It's not just about whether spectators will suffer from having to watch a few campy matches on hyrule. Hyrule breaks a lot of character matchups and anyone that isn't kirby or pikachu will get counterpicked to hyrule nonstop. Ness, Samus, DK, Fox, Yoshi, etc. will get taken to hyrule a lot because once these characters lose the lead it is extremely hard for them to get the lead back, if it's even possible.

 

[felipe_9595]

You haven't played m2k then. I had a bo5 set with him take literally an hour.

m2k needs like 10 minutes Break every match lmao

 

[MrMarbles]

As a player, and a long-time viewer to a lot of the major tournaments. I think a timer should be implemented and Hyrule should be a legal stage. My opinion may be slightly biased, because I do love Hyrule, but watching and playing a dreamland only tournament is kind of boring. On the same note, watching campy Hyrule matches is boring as-well. A timer on Hyrule completely takes away this concern, and allows for the stage to be legal. We're trying to bring viewers and players into the 64 community and limiting our stages and character choices(link is garbage on dreamland) really takes away from the enjoyment of new players and viewers. I personally love seeing the crazy combos pulled off in the tent, and I don't want that to be something that dies out. Implement a timer, I'm sure it will be rare that the timer actually has to decide the outcome of the game. Just the fact that it's in place will cause the players to play more quickly, and less campy towards the end of the match, and make for much more interesting to watch sets.

i could argue that adding a timer would make more hyrule matches campy. as it stands now there is little motivation for a player to stall/circle camp on hyrule because you cant win that way. However if there was a timer you could gain a lead and then infinitely camp

 

[Synesthesia]

i could argue that adding a timer would make more hyrule matches campy. as it stands now there is little motivation for a player to stall/circle camp on hyrule because you cant win that way. However if there was a timer you could gain a lead and then infinitely camp

that's true, however, how often do you think things like this would actually happen? I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least try, and see what happends? I see where you're coming from though, and the thought did cross my mind. I just find it difficult to accept the fact such a fun stage to play on is being banned. On another note, why are congo and peaches even up for debate if they should be legal or not? They aren't campy at all. I think some players are just so used to dreamland they'd rather it be the only stage based on their own competitive advantage. I think this is a very bad thing for the 64 community to continue to ban stages that certain players aren't comfortable playing on.

 

[MrMarbles]

that's true, however, how often do you think things like this would actually happen? I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least try, and see what happends? I see where you're coming from though, and the thought did cross my mind. I just find it difficult to accept the fact such a fun stage to play on is being banned. On another note, why are congo and peaches even up for debate if they should be legal or not? They aren't campy at all. I think some players are just so used to dreamland they'd rather it be the only stage based on their own competitive advantage. I think this is a very bad thing for the 64 community to continue to ban stages that certain players aren't comfortable playing on.

im not sure how often it would happen. it's all theory craft really. I love hyrule as well so if there was a way to keep it a legal stage i would be all for it. also i agree about congo/peaches. Im not a big fan of congo but i respect it as a viable stage. Also peaches is really fun and underrated

 

[Fireblaster]

that's true, however, how often do you think things like this would actually happen? I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least try, and see what happends? I see where you're coming from though, and the thought did cross my mind. I just find it difficult to accept the fact such a fun stage to play on is being banned. On another note, why are congo and peaches even up for debate if they should be legal or not? They aren't campy at all. I think some players are just so used to dreamland they'd rather it be the only stage based on their own competitive advantage. I think this is a very bad thing for the 64 community to continue to ban stages that certain players aren't comfortable playing on.

https://youtu.be/X_ZFH2Z7Up4?t=805

 

[Kirbstomper]

I say instead of a stock system we just play for 5 minutes and have 3 judges decide the result based on who played better in a boxing-style manner. This completely takes away the need for a timer, and if its a split decision because one of the judges went to the bathroom or something then we can have a winner take all game of soggy biscuit to decide who wins

 

[firo]

https://youtu.be/X_ZFH2Z7Up4?t=805

I had almost blocked that out of my memory.

A character like ness has no options when someone wants to camp on either side of this stage. The slants prevent ness from DJCs and he has tons of trouble getting to the top platforms. People don't pick peaches and congo to switch things up - they pick them to make the low tier characters even less viable.

Most of the arguments for peaches and congo often come from newer players and usually are "people never play here - why should we ban them?" For players who are counterpicked to these stages (myself included) - we have played there, and the stages stink. Please, the ruleset needs to be dreamland only.

 

[Synesthesia]

I completely agree @ firo . Ness completely slipped from my mind when I made that comment. I understand how congo makes it difficult to djc and peaches makes it very difficult to recover with certain characters, while pikachus and kirbys have a very easy time recovering, however I do believe hyrule is slightly better for lower tier characters with a worse recovery simply for the fact its much harder to knock them off-stage, but as said before.. camping the edges and waiting for an opportunity to gimp these characters is a major concern. Its really sad to admit that this game may only have one stage that's tournament legal, but that may be the future we might be looking at

 

[Morin0]

https://youtu.be/X_ZFH2Z7Up4?t=805

This video is a waste of bandwidth

 

[Fireblaster]

I'm so ****ing sick of people who aren't good or have no idea what the tournament scene is like that feel like they have to come in here and tell us that we're doing it wrong and we should keep "fun and fair" stages like kongo's and peach's and hyrule. Then we have to show a mountain of evidence and argument before they finally come to the same conclusion the players have already reached.

YES, IT ****ING SUCKS THAT WE HAVE FEW STAGES.
YES, IT'S DUMB THAT EVEN FEWER OF THEM ARE PLAYABLE ON A SERIOUS LEVEL.
COMPARED TO THE OTHER SMASH GAMES 1 STAGE IS "BORING" BUT THE BULL**** THAT CAN HAPPEN ON OTHER STAGES CAN BE EVEN WORSE I ASSURE YOU.

Now please shut up and let the north american metagame develop and catch up to the rest of the ****ing world, thank you

 

[<Fruity>]

People don't pick peaches and congo to switch things up - they pick them to make the low tier characters even less viable.

idk why ppl dislike peaches so much, imo it is the best stage for the bottom chars (except Link).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Hmm, for once I went with the majority.

I only support Hyrurle/Congo for doubles.

Peach's is bad. Congo was proved to be bad for a part of the cast. I mean 99% of 64 matches are already on Dreamland. Let's make it DL only.

In short, people learned how to play to win in 64, stages that allow camping suck.

Also, in my terrible opinion, DK/Samus are also worse on Peach's. I think the only characters that benefit are Luigi/Mario, inb4 Maafia now likes the stage.

 

[Synesthesia]

I'm so ****ing sick of people who aren't good or have no idea what the tournament scene is like that feel like they have to come in here and tell us that we're doing it wrong and we should keep "fun and fair" stages like kongo's and peach's and hyrule. Then we have to show a mountain of evidence and argument before they finally come to the same conclusion the players have already reached.

YES, IT ****ING SUCKS THAT WE HAVE FEW STAGES.
YES, IT'S DUMB THAT EVEN FEWER OF THEM ARE PLAYABLE ON A SERIOUS LEVEL.
COMPARED TO THE OTHER SMASH GAMES 1 STAGE IS "BORING" BUT THE BULL**** THAT CAN HAPPEN ON OTHER STAGES CAN BE EVEN WORSE I ASSURE YOU.

Now please shut up and let the north american metagame develop and catch up to the rest of the ****ing world, thank you

Wow, man.. You didn't have to go off like that I was just putting in my opinion. I understand that I have no idea about the tournament scene, but i finally agreed with you. I'm sorry you had to put in super hard labor to come up with that video, and I'm sure you were sweating really hard moving that mountain of evidence to this thread, but I really think your reaction was unnecessary, considering I was putting in my opinion to try to understand the situation?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Wow, man.. You didn't have to go off like that I was just putting in my opinion. I understand that I have no idea about the tournament scene, but i finally agreed with you. I'm sorry you had to put in super hard labor to come up with that video, and I'm sure you were sweating really hard moving that mountain of evidence to this thread, but I really think your reaction was unnecessary, considering I was putting in my opinion to try to understand the situation?

Sorry, people have strong opinions in this scene. I was hoping to forget that Firo match also.

 

[BananaBolts]

I've been playing DL-only ever since I got interested in becoming a competitive player.

Spoiler

Saffron City will always be my favorite though

 

[Shears]

Wow, man.. You didn't have to go off like that I was just putting in my opinion. I understand that I have no idea about the tournament scene, but i finally agreed with you. I'm sorry you had to put in super hard labor to come up with that video, and I'm sure you were sweating really hard moving that mountain of evidence to this thread, but I really think your reaction was unnecessary, considering I was putting in my opinion to try to understand the situation?

His anger comes from his exhaustion. This topic has been beaten to death so many times that he, and many others, feel sick to their stomachs having to go over it so many times. To many of us, imagine it like you had a child that asked every day why the sky is blue and would keep asking why to every answer you gave. By the end of the day the child understands now why the sky is blue but by morning forgets and so asks why again putting you in this cyclical hell of explaining the same thing over and over and over again. With the way the current voting seems, and this voting took place for Apex as well, SmashCon will probably be DL only, 5 stocks, with an optional 8 minute timer. I will be meeting with Nintendude and the SmashCon staff this weekend where the final tournament ruleset will be decided.

The question I have now is, should the timer be mandatory for Top 8/16 or should it be optional for that as well?

Also, Pikachu/Jigglypuff on Saffron City with Pokeballs Very High is getting a good number of votes...

 

[BananaBolts]

For those who voted for 4 stocks, why do you think Smash Con should be 4 stocks?

Also, I noticed Xanadu switched to 5 stocks recently. Was this a test to see what stock count would be better?

 

[DumpsterMidget]

I'll preface this reply by saying I'm new to the tournament scene so my opinion holds little weight. That said, I do believe that Congo, peach's, and hyrule should all be legal, albeit probably with a timer on hyrule. Here is my reasoning:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm actually asking here because I could be wrong, but isn't the entire point of a counter pick to give the losing player of the previous match a slight edge in the next match? If someone loses as link on dreamland, why should they not be able to counterpick hyrule, where link is a more viable character?
I think Firo brought up the point that ness is considerably worse on hyrule or Congo, and this is a valid statement. However, if you are in a position where someone would be counter picking you to Congo or hyrule, it means that you won the first match on dreamland, and even if you were to lose this second match you have the choice of map for the third match, where you would presumably go back to dreamland and win. Furthermore, how is it any more fair to say "ness sucks on hyrule so it should be banned" than saying "link sucks on dreamland it should be banned"? Having different stages be legal basically just encourages people to diversify their character portfolio rather than stick with one character.
Now please don't get angry at me for giving my opinion.

Oh also one other thing. Several people have mentioned that people new to the tournament scene shouldn't have any say in this and dreamland only is the only thing that works and all advanced players know this blah blah blah, but if I remember correctly (I do), when Isai played as link at Apex 2012 it was on hyrule because he wouldn't have had a chance on dreamland. Then at Apex 2014 when Isai lost a game to dexter, he counter picked to peaches because it changes up the matchup. Now obviously isai isn't a microcosm for the 64 scene as a whole, but I think this helps my argument at least a little bit.

Again, just my opinion.


Edit: when I said match I meant game

 

[Combo Blaze]

How about an OFFICIAL yolo tournament side event?

 

[Shears]

For those who voted for 4 stocks, why do you think Smash Con should be 4 stocks?

Also, I noticed Xanadu switched to 5 stocks recently. Was this a test to see what stock count would be better?

The 4 stocks at Xanadu was the test to see how it would run. We all felt that despite it being viable for tournament play, the minor outcome changes were an impact noticeable over time and that 5 stocks gave a better representation of how the players compare without extending match length to something detrimental to logistics. Basically, does 4 stock break the tournament? No. Is 5 stock better an equally feasible? Yes.

I'll preface this reply by saying I'm new to the tournament scene so my opinion holds little weight. That said, I do believe that Congo, peach's, and hyrule should all be legal, albeit probably with a timer on hyrule. Here is my reasoning:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm actually asking here because I could be wrong, but isn't the entire point of a counter pick to give the losing player of the previous match a slight edge in the next match? If someone loses as link on dreamland, why should they not be able to counterpick hyrule, where link is a more viable character?
I think Firo brought up the point that ness is considerably worse on hyrule or Congo, and this is a valid statement. However, if you are in a position where someone would be counter picking you to Congo or hyrule, it means that you won the first match on dreamland, and even if you were to lose this second match you have the choice of map for the third match, where you would presumably go back to dreamland and win. Furthermore, how is it any more fair to say "ness sucks on hyrule so it should be banned" than saying "link sucks on dreamland it should be banned"? Having different stages be legal basically just encourages people to diversify their character portfolio rather than stick with one character.
Now please don't get angry at me for giving my opinion.

Oh also one other thing. Several people have mentioned that people new to the tournament scene shouldn't have any say in this and dreamland only is the only thing that works and all advanced players know this blah blah blah, but if I remember correctly (I do), when Isai played as link at Apex 2012 it was on hyrule because he wouldn't have had a chance on dreamland. Then at Apex 2014 when Isai lost a game to dexter, he counter picked to peaches because it changes up the matchup. Now obviously isai isn't a microcosm for the 64 scene as a whole, but I think this helps my argument at least a little bit.

Again, just my opinion.


Edit: when I said match I meant game

I used to have that same mindset but after playing in tournaments for almost 2 years now I see that as the wrong way to view matches. The fact that it makes a character better (more viable) is equal to if it made the other character worse. This makes the second match a gimmick and just to keep the set closer than it needed to be. Hyrule makes Link better, but it also makes certain other characters better which only leads to the other player switching to Kirby/Pika to counter Hyrule and Link. This can break the game because it leads to players just saying screw Link or other low tiers if the stage favoritism is more for a high tier than a low tier. As far as camping goes, there is a plethora of matches (and their videos) out there to show how easy and effective camping is on Hyrule. Adding a timer to this stage brings conclusion to the match but in a short and quick 8 minute camp/stall fest. No matter what ruleset is implemented for Hyrule, the stage can break the integrity of the match and a ruleset is designed to prevent these things from being possible whether or not they are probable. In sports, they have rules for freak occurrences not because they probable but because they are possible. In soccer, they have a case for if a player takes off their cleat and throws it at the ball and the ball crosses the goal line what the resulting play should be, not because it has happened or will happen, but because it can happen. This is how rulesets should be designed, not for gentlemen, not for fun, and not for probability, but for possibility. Before @ Fireblaster comes in here and rips you a new one, use the search tool on the forum and look for the Hyrule discussion as well as all of the Studstill ruleset discussions and educate yourself on why the community stands where it stands and what the community has gone through to get there. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence and discussion about stage legality.

 

[Fireblaster]

I'll preface this reply by saying I'm new to the tournament scene so my opinion holds little weight. That said, I do believe that Congo, peach's, and hyrule should all be legal, albeit probably with a timer on hyrule. Here is my reasoning:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm actually asking here because I could be wrong, but isn't the entire point of a counter pick to give the losing player of the previous match a slight edge in the next match? If someone loses as link on dreamland, why should they not be able to counterpick hyrule, where link is a more viable character?
I think Firo brought up the point that ness is considerably worse on hyrule or Congo, and this is a valid statement. However, if you are in a position where someone would be counter picking you to Congo or hyrule, it means that you won the first match on dreamland, and even if you were to lose this second match you have the choice of map for the third match, where you would presumably go back to dreamland and win. Furthermore, how is it any more fair to say "ness sucks on hyrule so it should be banned" than saying "link sucks on dreamland it should be banned"? Having different stages be legal basically just encourages people to diversify their character portfolio rather than stick with one character.
Now please don't get angry at me for giving my opinion.

Oh also one other thing. Several people have mentioned that people new to the tournament scene shouldn't have any say in this and dreamland only is the only thing that works and all advanced players know this blah blah blah, but if I remember correctly (I do), when Isai played as link at Apex 2012 it was on hyrule because he wouldn't have had a chance on dreamland. Then at Apex 2014 when Isai lost a game to dexter, he counter picked to peaches because it changes up the matchup. Now obviously isai isn't a microcosm for the 64 scene as a whole, but I think this helps my argument at least a little bit.

Again, just my opinion.


Edit: when I said match I meant game

Hyrule breaks almost every matchup and makes them take forever. Dreamland just makes link play like garbage. This isn't about playing favorites, it's about making the game ****ing PLAYABLE.

Also **** this dumb mentality of "just lose the counterpick and win the 3rd game". Yes, I'm sure every ****ing matchup between players in a tournament is so black and white that you're just BETTER or WORSE than your opponent and you can easily give up a ****ing game in a set and the third one easy. I guess in your world there's no such things as close games huh? You won the first game as ness with 1 stock left at 200%? LOL **** YOU WE'RE GOING TO KONGO I HOPE YOU BROUGHT YOUR LUBE *****.

 

[DumpsterMidget]

Hyrule breaks almost every matchup and makes them take forever. Dreamland just makes link play like garbage. This isn't about playing favorites, it's about making the game ****ing PLAYABLE.

Also **** this dumb mentality of "just lose the counterpick and win the 3rd game". Yes, I'm sure every ****ing matchup between players in a tournament is so black and white that you're just BETTER or WORSE than your opponent and you can easily give up a ****ing game in a set and the third one easy. I guess in your world there's no such things as close games huh? You won the first game as ness with 1 stock left at 200%? LOL **** YOU WE'RE GOING TO KONGO I HOPE YOU BROUGHT YOUR LUBE *****.

In response to you and Shears, let's forget I said anything about hyrule at all if you are that adamant that it completely destroys most matchups (I disagree with this but both of you are more experienced than myself, thus your opinion on that matter is definitely more valid).

However, to counter your point about close games, I don't get how you don't see your exact point the other way as well. You lost the first game as luigi to a falcon who had 1 stock and 200%? TAKE THEM TO PEACHES WHERE LUIGI IS RELATIVELY BETTER


Edit: didn't exactly get my point across, I meant that if you lose the first game on a map that is relatively worse for your character than peaches or Congo then why should you then not be able to play on a map that is relatively better?