Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Smudges]

In that case Diddy indeed has all the rights to be higher than Pikachu, because even if ZeRo uses Sheik more, his Diddy would beat pretty much anyone else most likely.

I don't think that applies, because Zero isn't a solo Diddy main. What we're saying is that just because only one player uses a character doesn't mean that they're not top tier material. Diddy has a bunch of notable players besides Zero, like MVD and C3PO.

So I don't understand how this means that Diddy is higher than Pikachu.

 

[A10theHero]

Glad I sparked pika debate without even including him. I love this thread.

I'm glad you did. Pikachu is the character I know the most about, so I can actually contribute a lot to discussion about him.
And I don't think this is much of a debate. "Discussion" is more fitting.

In that case Diddy indeed has all the rights to be higher than Pikachu, because even if ZeRo uses Sheik more, his Diddy would beat pretty much anyone else most likely.

Diddy Kong is a good character, but the way I would rephrases Feelicks's statement is this:
Pikachu's most notable results come from ESAM. He doesn't see much top level play mostly because his risk to reward ratio is not as, for lack of a better word, rewarding as, say, ZSS or Sheik. You have to put in a lot of effort (in comparison to some other top tiers) to make him work (note that by saying this, I am not calling any of the other top tiers braindead). He does get other top level results from great players such as NAKAT and the ones Feelicks mentioned, but ESAM's is most prominent for whatever reason. Probably because he is the de facto Pikachu even though he doesn't play the character to his fullest "potential" (by which I mean the potential we know about currently). For example, only fairly recently has he started incorporating Down tilt, a very important spacing tool of Pikachu's, into his play.
Note that Pikachu's high place is not because of ESAM's high (and inconsistent) placings. It's because he has amazing tools that theory can back up pretty nicely, and although his results are lacking compared to some other top tiers, it is "good enough" since the frame data and such more than make up for it.

 

[atreyujames]

I may be a little late to the party but at the moment my personal tier list looks something like this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Any criticism is welcome and encouraged

 

[Smudges]

I may be a little late to the party but at the moment my personal tier list looks something like this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Any criticism is welcome and encouraged

Your list looks a lot like DMWN 's list, which is good, because that list is pretty top notch.

I have no complaints about this.

 

[DMWN]

atreyujames Easily my favorite list besides my own. There are a few things I would change around, such as Robin's and Shulk's positioning (I'd bump them a little higher and put Bowser into D), but aside from that nitpick of mine, I believe this list is extremely accurate.

 

[atreyujames]

atreyujames Easily my favorite list besides my own. There are a few things I would change around, such as Robin's and Shulk's positioning (I'd bump them a little higher and put Bowser into D), but aside from that nitpick of mine, I believe this list is extremely accurate.

I'll admit, Robin's placement might be pure personal bias. She has and probably always will be my least favourite character, and that opinion has probably seeped into my placement of her. Shulk is pretty hard to place and I COULD see him a bit higher if need be. But Bowser I feel has earned a bump up to C tier with his buffs. This opinion is mostly speculator y at the moment, and might change as I see more of how his buffs function in actual tournament play.

 

[Deleted member]

I may be a little late to the party but at the moment my personal tier list looks something like this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Any criticism is welcome and encouraged

• Ganon is not better than Dedede. Dedede is bad but he's not burdened with as massive of flaws Ganon does.
• Mewtwo and Samus are not bottom 10. I've explained why in detail multiple times before in this topic so saying it again would be beating my own opinion into the ground.
• How is Wii Fit Trainer worse than Little Mac, Charizard, Lucina and Duck Hunt? I'm legit curious on your reasoning for this.
• Lucas is too high. Has practically no high level results or any notable players besides Pink Fresh, at least in the West. And no, NAKAT isn't a notable Lucas player before anybody says so. Put him in C tier above Falco.
• The Pits are better than R.O.B., I say put R.O.B. at bottom of B tier.
• I don't believe Ness is better than Meta Knight. I'd also put Villager above Ness.
• Shulk is too high. Bottom of D is a better place for him. Huge lack of results in nationals and his erratic MU spread don't help matters.

 

[Bors The Stylish]

I may be a little late to the party but at the moment my personal tier list looks something like this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Any criticism is welcome and encouraged

Pretty solid list. The only major change I'd make is moving Lucas down a little bit.

 

[DMWN]

I made a few tweaks here and there.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
Z:

-Moved Palutena up two spaces
-Moved Robin down two spaces
-Moved Shulk down a few spaces
-Moved Kirby up quite a few spaces
-Moved R.O.B. down after Pit and Dark Pit (yet the thought of allowing Cloud to rise any more pains me)
Once again, I will move Ryu back down to A if one more person wishes it.
Samus still has the potential to rise.
Ike may move down a few places with the next list.

ShadowGuy1 I'd like to agree with your opinion on Little Mac, but the fact of the matter is his few results do not help his placement. If you can provide some justification for your ideas, however, I would be happy to bump him up based on what you find. As far as Roy vs. Link goes, Link has the combos and projectiles Roy lacks, even while lacking Roy's speed. They're truly similar characters in terms of viability.

@Feelicks Lucas is a touchy subject. As I'm sure many others did, I initially copied and pasted this thread's main list into my reply box and edited it there, and looking at his placement in that list right now, it only seemed logical for him to be moved up at least into B given that his grab buffs solved one of his bigger flaws, and his landing lag reductions certainly helped with comboing and attacking on-shield. About Meta Knight, Villager and Ness in particular, I don't feel you're wrong. Villager and Meta Knight are fairly new to the American metagame, and as such, I'm hesitant to place them higher than Ness--a character we already know is very capable--until further notice. I hope you understand.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I may be a little late to the party but at the moment my personal tier list looks something like this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Any criticism is welcome and encouraged

Pit is SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS++++++ Teir...trust me on this

• Ganon is not better than Dedede. Dedede is bad but he's not burdened with as massive of flaws Ganon does.
• Mewtwo and Samus are not bottom 10. I've explained why in detail multiple times before in this topic so saying it again would be beating my own opinion into the ground.
• How is Wii Fit Trainer worse than Little Mac, Charizard, Lucina and Duck Hunt? I'm legit curious on your reasoning for this.
• Lucas is too high. Has practically no high level results or any notable players besides Pink Fresh, at least in the West. And no, NAKAT isn't a notable Lucas player before anybody says so. Put him in C tier above Falco.
• The Pits are better than R.O.B., I say Pit R.O.B. at bottom of B tier.
• I don't believe Ness is better than Meta Knight. I'd also put Villager above Ness.
• Shulk is too high. Bottom of D is a better place for him. Huge lack of results in nationals and his erratic MU spread don't help matters.

Leave Duck Hunt out of this. They are a beautiful/adorable pair and are great...in Japan atleast. Stop hurting me!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Actually, most of Roy's sweetspotted tilts and smashses are stronger than Marth's tippered ones. Not only that Roy has consistant actual follow ups from both forward and down throw, whereas Marth only has one . While it may be true that Roy's move aren't the safest on shield, because he is a rushdown fighter and has good mobility, he can easily close the distance and grab his opponent. The advantage is Roy's ability to deal a pressure and do mixups with high mobility and power.

I'm putting this in spoilers to prevent such a long post from clogging up this page. It initially compared their ground attacks, and then grew into a full blown comparison. I used to secondary Roy on his release, and dual main Marth now so I know my fair bit about them both.

So, actually that is incorrect. Most of Marth's sweetspots are stronger than Roy's. But going strictly off of grounded attacks as you were saying, they are generally even. Examples (assuming sweetspots are landed):

Spoiler: Ground Attacks

- Dash Attacks are much the same.
- Roy's Ftilt does kill earlier, by about 10%.
- Roy's Utilt does kill earlier, by about 20%.
- Dtilt's are much the same.
- Marth's Fsmash is stronger, killing about 10% earlier. Also worth noting that it comes out quicker, has a longer lasting hitbox and - ends quicker than Roy's.
- Usmashes are weird. Marth's sourspot is slightly weaker than Roy's Usmash, but his has no sweetspot or sourspot, and Marth's sweetspot kills much earlier than Roy's, by at least 30% IIRC.
- Dsmashes are also odd. Roy's front hit is slighlty stronger at low percents due to higher damage, but as percents rise, Marth's becomes stronger due to the knockback and growth. Marth's back hit is stronger anyway.
- Marth's Uthrow is stronger. I know it kills earlier, but I think it's by something like 20%.

Aerials go...

Spoiler: Aerial Attacks

- Marth's tipper Nair 2 is one of the, if not the strongest Nair in the game IIRC. Regardless, still deals more damage, and has more KBG than Roy's.
- Fair's are much the same, but Marth's will start killing slightly earlier.
- Bair's are much the same. Marth's will still kill earlier at realistic percents, but at much higher percents Roy's will overtake Marth's. Roy's sourspot on the other hand is incredibly weak, where as Marth's is only slightly weaker than the sweetspot.
- Marth's Uair is stronger, killing about 30% earlier. It's worth noting that Roy's Uair supposed to be mainly a juggle move on the sweetspot which deals 9%. However, Marth's sweetspot deals 12% and can kill, and the sourspot is like Roy's sweetspot, dealing 9% and juggles, essentially meaning Marth can juggle and kill with his.
- Dair's are the most different moves in their moveset, in terms of utility, hitboxes, and power. I can't tell you much about them, but looking at the frame data, Roy's is very slightly stronger at having a stricter and worse range.

Spoiler: Conclusions

I won't go into specials much, because they all have different utility (aside from Counter, where Marth's is easier to use but Roy's can kill slightly earlier). But in general, Marth's moves are stronger than Roy's. Adding to this, Marth's attacks have more range than Roy's. This is part of the reason why Roy's attacks, despite having an easier sweetspot, are still less safe than Marth's. If Roy lands a sweetspot on shield, he can still be punished, because he will be closer to the opponent. Marth will be at a distance, and an even longer distance than Roy can achieve thanks to Marth's higher range. Because of this, even if Marth lands a far range sourspot, it still very similar to one of Roy's close range sweetspots due to the distance. Of course, the tipper makes this better, as a tipper is very hard to punish on shield in most cases.

Overall, Marth and Roy are actually quite different. Roy has a slightly more versatile combo game (I don't say "better", because Marth does indeed have one, but it's harder to set up and doesn't have as much ability to mix it up), and can rush down and pressure slightly better. However, Marth can kill safer and in most cases earlier, and also has a much better defensive game, though his sweetspots require more skill to land. Marth can bait easier than Roy thanks to his higher range and safer sweetspot placement, and also gets punished less hard than Roy, thanks to his main commitment moves having less lag. Roy also get's combo'd easier than Marth, falling quicker and being heavier. They also have different playstyles. People trying to play Marth like he played in Brawl will be getting nowhere, and will be playing a bad Marth. He is played a lot more patient, and gets great reward from baiting and landing that initial hit. Roy however, has much more ability to rush down and combo, but has far less room for error, and one error can result in a serious punish. Marth can also mix up his approaches and combos a bit more due to his aerials autocancelling and having less landing lag. Roy's do not, and have more landing lag (albeit slightly).

 

[Furret24]

Remember back in June when everyone was saying Roy was just a better Marth?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Remember back in June when everyone was saying Roy was just a better Marth?

I'll be honest, as a Marth main, I feel that Roy doesn't lose/have a disadvantage in as many matchups as Marth, but I also feel that he doesn't win/have an advantage in as many matchups as Marth either. I also feel that Roy's combo throws are what make him shine. If Marth had slightly better throws, I'd no doubt, 100% say that Marth was better. It's this what still makes me think that Roy can still potentially still outdo Marth, safety or not.

I will say that in the past I believed Roy to be much higher than Marth. After letting Roy settle in, and me discovering the proper way to play Marth in Smash 4, now I think they are within a few spaces of eachother, somewhere near the middle. It's debatable of who is better than the other at the moment, and totally up to personal opinion. However, if Marth got good combo throw options like Roy in a patch, that could be interesting. Then I'd see Marth being clearly above him.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Updated Tier List after seeing other comments.
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

Changes:
Mewtwo to Top of D
Samus out of Bottom 10
Shulk to E
Meta Knight above Mario
Robin above Roy
Rob above Pits
Palu above Duck Hunt
Bowser below Samus

EDIT:Falco above Kirby

 

[Bowserboy3]

Updated Tier List after seeing other comments.
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

Changes:
Mewtwo to Top of D
Samus out of Bottom 10
Shulk to E
Meta Knight above Mario
Robin above Roy
Rob above Pits
Palu above Duck Hunt
Bowser below Samus

This is... actually pretty good! Though I think Mewtwo isn't the best in tier D, he is still somewhere near the top of it. The only other things I have problems with are Falco and Bowser. Falco IMO should be near Marth and G&W and Bowser should be near his son. But that's it. You have Samus out of bottom 10, Marth is fairly placed (though I do feel he can be at bottom of C, that is still nice), Rosalina isn't in S, Villager in top 10... very nice!

Edit: I don't see Doc.

Double edit: I also don't see Fox!

 

[Deleted member]

This isn't a tier list, but I'm gonna list all the veterans and show how they went in the transition from Brawl (or Melee for characters like Mewtwo, Roy and Doc) to SSB4. Just thought it'd be interesting to do.

Spoiler: Sm4sh Veterans: Buffed or Nerfed?

: Immensely buffed.
: Buffed. Now I can never think of Brawl Falcon ever again.
: Nerfed.
: Bodied.
: Nerfed, but still one of the best characters in the game.
: Buffed.
: Significantly nerfed, but a viable CP/secondary.
: One of the characters hit hardest by the nerf hammer.
: Nerfed, but far better relative to the cast compared to Brawl.
: Buffed. Not enough to make up for his glaring flaws, unfortunately.
: Buffed.
: Nerfed.
: Nerfed.
: Buffed.
: Nerfed in most other departments besides Aura.
: Nerfed.
: Buffed.
: Buffed.
: Nerfed. Ditto as Falco.
: Nerfed. Ditto as Diddy.
: Buffed from Melee.
: Nerfed. Ditto as Falco and Marth.
: Incredibly buffed.
: Nerfed, but still a viable character.
: Buffed.
: Buffed.
: Mix of buffs and nerfs, but has a better place in the meta compared to Brawl's.
: Buffed.
: Buffed. Went from terrible in Melee to just mediocre here. Something, I suppose.
: Mix of buffs and nerfs, but buffed overall from Brawl despite her issues.
: I don't need to explain this one.
: Buffed.
: Slightly nerfed from Brawl, but still a viable character.
: Slightly nerfed. Ditto as Toon Link.
: Buffed heavily.
: Slightly buffed. Still awful though.
: Ditto as Sheik.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

This is... actually pretty good! Though I think Mewtwo isn't the best in tier D, he is still somewhere near the top of it. The only other things I have problems with are Falco and Bowser. Falco IMO should be near Marth and G&W and Bowser should be near his son. But that's it. You have Samus out of bottom 10, Marth is fairly placed (though I do feel he can be at bottom of C, that is still nice), Rosalina isn't in S, Villager in top 10... very nice!

Edit: I don't see Doc.

Double edit: I also don't see Fox!

Thanks for the catch, I am on mobile so I can't edit it. Fox above Diddy and Doc at 11th from worst. EDIT:I edited with Falco by Marth must have not seen it.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's finally time for me to make a list:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Drink it all in before judging it. This tier list is the culmination of a lot of thought over the past few weeks.

 

[Deleted member]

It's finally time for me to make a list:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Drink it all in before judging it. This tier list is the culmination of a lot of thought over the past few weeks.

• Ike is far too low. Pikachu also shouldn't be that low.
• Mega Man needs to be in C tier above Olimar, and Robin is nowhere as low as you put him.
• Meta Knight is a very good character, but top 5? In't that stretching it a bit?
• No way is Yoshi better than Villager.
• Ness is missing. So is Samus.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Updated Tier List after seeing other comments.
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

Changes:
Mewtwo to Top of D
Samus out of Bottom 10
Shulk to E
Meta Knight above Mario
Robin above Roy
Rob above Pits
Palu above Duck Hunt
Bowser below Samus

EDIT:Falco above Kirby

You're missing Fox and Dr. Mario

Also Kirby is way too low

 

[Xandercosm]

• Ike is far too low. Pikachu also shouldn't be that low.
• Mega Man needs to be in C tier above Olimar, and Robin is nowhere as low as you put him.
• Meta Knight is a very good character, but top 5? In't that stretching it a bit?
• No way is Yoshi better than Villager.
• Ness is missing.

You didn't notice ZSS above Sheik? Teeheehee!

I added Ness. To answer your questions:

1. The Ike hype died long ago. He never should have been in B tier.
2. Mega Man doesn't have the rep, nor the frame data, combo potential, etc to be in C tier. Olimar doesn't have much rep either but he is better in theory in my opinion.
3. Meta Knight being in top five is kind of my prediction for the future. I think he's going to rise even harder. Also, Earth had Meta Knight in top tier so don't look at me
4. Neither Yoshi, nor Villager have any rep in America so I picked the one with better theory.

I also made some other edits to it. I was missing a couple characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

It's finally time for me to make a list:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Drink it all in before judging it. This tier list is the culmination of a lot of thought over the past few weeks.

Robin's a bit low, but more importantly Marth is not worse than Roy. I'll accept still being in Tier 5, but he's either on par with or higher than Roy.

 

[Xandercosm]

Robin's a bit low, but more importantly Marth is not worse than Roy. I'll accept still being in Tier 5, but he's either on par with or higher than Roy.

I really didn't think that much about Marth and Roy. Why would you say that Roy is worse than Marth, though. To me he seems better in every way other than tipper.

 

[Deleted member]

You didn't notice ZSS above Sheik? Teeheehee!

I added Ness. To answer your questions:

1. The Ike hype died long ago. He never should have been in B tier.
2. Mega Man doesn't have the rep, nor the frame data, combo potential, etc to be in C tier. Olimar doesn't have much rep either but he is better in theory in my opinion.
3. Meta Knight being in top five is kind of my prediction for the future. I think he's going to rise even harder. Also, Earth had Meta Knight in top tier so don't look at me
4. Neither Yoshi, nor Villager have any rep in America so I picked the one with better theory.

>Mega Man has no rep

Tell that to ScAtt getting top 8 placements at MLG and Tipped Off 11 only using Mega Man. Do your damn research.

>Villager or Yoshi has no rep in America

Oh **** off. I'm so tired of people saying this. We have two PR'd Yoshis here in Florida that get good placements at bigger tournaments: Poltergust and KDB. Yoshi also has The Wall and Raptor, who were the Yoshis who got into top 50 at Genesis 3. ESAM having a Yoshi secondary is also of note.

Contrary as to what you're saying, Villy has American players. CaptAwesum, jamnt0ast and Skillager not ring a bell?

 

[Wintermelon43]

>Mega Man has no rep

Tell that to ScAtt getting top 8 placements at MLG and Tipped Off 11 only using Mega Man. Do your damn research.

>Villager or Yoshi has no rep in America

Oh **** off. I'm so tired of people saying this. We have two PR'd Yoshis here in Florida that get good placements at bigger tournaments: Poltergust and KDB. Yoshi also has The Wall and Raptor, who were the Yoshis who got into top 50 at Genesis 3. ESAM having a Yoshi secondary is also of note.

Contrary as to what you're saying, Villy has American players. CaptAwesum, jamnt0ast and Skillager not ring a bell?

Esam dropped Yoshi, in favor of somebody else for Mario. Point is still accurate though, espicially considering there is also Firefly.

Villager has SS and MJG too.

You didn't notice ZSS above Sheik? Teeheehee!

I added Ness. To answer your questions:

1. The Ike hype died long ago. He never should have been in B tier.
2. Mega Man doesn't have the rep, nor the frame data, combo potential, etc to be in C tier. Olimar doesn't have much rep either but he is better in theory in my opinion.
3. Meta Knight being in top five is kind of my prediction for the future. I think he's going to rise even harder. Also, Earth had Meta Knight in top tier so don't look at me
4. Neither Yoshi, nor Villager have any rep in America so I picked the one with better theory.

I also made some other edits to it. I was missing a couple characters.

Oh my god, I didn't notice either LOL

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've often wondered what made Roy be ranker higher than Marth. I know that Roy runs faster, has better air mobility, and has less difficulty hitting with his sweetspots.

 

[Furret24]

Also Kirby is way too low

Not really. Low tier seems about right for him.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I really didn't think that much about Marth and Roy. Why would you say that Roy is worse than Marth, though. To me he seems better in every way other than tipper.

It seems not very often we agree on much, but I am a Marth dual main, and I do agree that Roy could be slightly better than Marth, though on par is also believable (albeit, I think both are slightly higher than you placed them, but that's beside the point), if only that Roy's combo game is slightly more effective. Marth may have superior/safer approachs, better baiting and defensive games, safer punishes etc, but Roy's combos allow him to rack up damage pretty easily. When both of them can kill insanely early, the ability to rack up damage pretty easily merges well with this. I think they are at least on par with each other.

Also, I don't know whether you were doing this intentionally, but you missed Samus out on that list. Oh I also saw no Cloud. But your tier B is very good. I also like that you also seem to see more in Greninja. I too think he is better than most people give him credit for these days. Also, no Mii's included? Or is this a FG tier list?

Mario & Sonic Guy It really it just depends what you see is effective. The paragraphs above summaries my opinions at least (coming from a Marth player).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Not really. Low tier seems about right for him.

Low tier? wth? Kirby has great combos, an up tilt that follows inot itself a billion times, and good down tilt too, great throw, forward throw being great for comboing, down throw good for comboing, and up throw great at KOing, pretty good recovery, good frame data on many moves, the ability to copy neutral specials, great aierals, great edgeguarding, and has even matchups aganist and possibly (Probably 45:55 though) and 55:45 matchups aganist . That defitenly doesn't sound like low tier to me.

 

[Deleted member]

How does Kirby go even with Sheik or ZSS at all? It's another erroneous claim I'm sick of people spreading around, they both outpace and overwhelm Kirby in neutral, and can take advantage of his average ground mobility and terrible air speed. They're also very adept at edgeguarding Kirby because of this, and his matchup with them is impaired due to them having projectiles. You can say "oh, but Kirby can duck under them". I doubt a human has reflexes as fast to constantly duck under Sheik's needles.

Also, down throw has no reliable followups at all. Only his forward throw is good for combo'ing. His recovery isn't good either. Even though he has five jumps they're all low in height, and it's slow in speed so he's basically free for edgeguarding. Doesn't help when Final Cutter offers little horizontal distance.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Also, down throw has no reliable followups at all. Only his forward throw is good for combo'ing. His recovery isn't good either. Even though he has five jumps they're all low in height, and it's slow in speed so he's basically free for edgeguarding. Doesn't help when Final Cutter offers little horizontal distance.

Yeah the fact that Kirby's air speed is set at 0.8 means that his recovery is rather poor, even with 5 mid-air jumps. And since you're not always permitted to use custom specials, you won't be able to use Upper Cutter over Final Cutter.

 

[Furret24]

Low tier? wth? Kirby has great combos, an up tilt that follows inot itself a billion times, and good down tilt too, great throw, forward throw being great for comboing, down throw good for comboing, and up throw great at KOing, pretty good recovery, good frame data on many moves, the ability to copy neutral specials, great aierals, great edgeguarding, and has even matchups aganist and possibly (Probably 45:55 though) and 55:45 matchups aganist . That defitenly doesn't sound like low tier to me.

He's also slow, light, has poor recovery, subpar range, and somewhat prone to juggling.

As for strengths you listed, utilt only combos into itself 3-5 times on most characters. Down throw doesn't combo. All specials are quite laggy, and most of his moves have poor startup.

I can't comment on how accurate those you MUs are, since I'm not experienced enough to have an educational say, though I'm pretty sure he does not go even with Sheik and ZSS. Could you comment on how accurate they are @Feelicks?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

It's finally time for me to make a list:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Drink it all in before judging it. This tier list is the culmination of a lot of thought over the past few weeks.

Nobody likes Duck Hunt or Megaman anymore...

 

[Xandercosm]

It seems not very often we agree on much, but I am a Marth dual main, and I do agree that Roy could be slightly better than Marth, though on par is also believable (albeit, I think both are slightly higher than you placed them, but that's beside the point), if only that Roy's combo game is slightly more effective. Marth may have superior/safer approachs, better baiting and defensive games, safer punishes etc, but Roy's combos allow him to rack up damage pretty easily. When both of them can kill insanely early, the ability to rack up damage pretty easily merges well with this. I think they are at least on par with each other.

Also, I don't know whether you were doing this intentionally, but you missed Samus out on that list. Oh I also saw no Cloud. But your tier B is very good. I also like that you also seem to see more in Greninja. I too think he is better than most people give him credit for these days. Also, no Mii's included? Or is this a FG tier list?

Mario & Sonic Guy It really it just depends what you see is effective. The paragraphs above summaries my opinions at least (coming from a Marth player).

Oh dang it! I missed a bunch of characters. No worries. I'll add them. Also, I didn't include the Miis because I have no knowledge of them and they are basically excluded from all competitive play at this point.

>Mega Man has no rep

Tell that to ScAtt getting top 8 placements at MLG and Tipped Off 11 only using Mega Man. Do your damn research.

>Villager or Yoshi has no rep in America

Oh **** off. I'm so tired of people saying this. We have two PR'd Yoshis here in Florida that get good placements at bigger tournaments: Poltergust and KDB. Yoshi also has The Wall and Raptor, who were the Yoshis who got into top 50 at Genesis 3. ESAM having a Yoshi secondary is also of note.

Contrary as to what you're saying, Villy has American players. CaptAwesum, jamnt0ast and Skillager not ring a bell?

Feelicks, I think you need to calm down already. You have spent the past few pages raging at people over their opinions. Just chill out. We're just trying to have a mature discussion and everyone has their own opinions.

 

[wedl!!]

I've got a bit on my plate here.

Kirby is a secret "MU destoryer" in the sense that he's a good pocket for ZSS/Fox/Falcon (aka not beating them but doing pretty good) but pretty awful at everything else.

No Kirby does not go even with Sheik. At all. Pretty much any Kirby knows this. She's far too safe and fast for Kirby to properly handle in neutral. He doesn't really outpunish her anyways.

ZSS/Fox/Falcon are characters Kirby can consistently beat in neutral and can outpunish (Kirby has a 0-72% on Fox).

I'm not too versed in Kirby although I have a friend who discusses him often and that's a heavily abridged version of what he says.

@Feelicks

Peach is nerfed from Brawl imo. She lost a lot of tools (Turnip nerfs, nair nerfs, fair/bair autocancel changes) but has a better punish game. Not a trade I would have made.

She's only better because of engine changes and MK/Marth/Diddy being replaced with much tamer matchups she gets bodied in.

Anyways.
S:
A:
B+:
B:
B-:
C:
D:

 

[Deleted member]

He's also slow, light, has poor recovery, subpar range, and somewhat prone to juggling.

As for strengths you listed, utilt only combos into itself 3-5 times on most characters. Down throw doesn't combo. All specials are quite laggy, and most of his moves have poor startup.

I can't comment on how accurate those you MUs are, since I'm not experienced enough to have an educational say, though I'm pretty sure he does not go even with Sheik and ZSS. Could you comment on how accurate they are @Feelicks?

I haven't played Kirby seriously in a while now, so my thoughts are rusty. I can't comment on Lucario or Pac since I haven't been through that MU commonly with Kirbs at all but I'll give my best thoughts on the other characters. Gonna call @Mazdamaxsti since he still plays him more consistently, and can give more insightful input and correct what wrong observations I've made from my experience.

: Kirby loses this matchup, no questions asked. He gets camped, spaced out and killed early, especially with Purple Pikmin around. Less volatile than it was in Brawl, but still not very good. Despite Olimar's own poor aerial mobility, he at least makes it with it with his disjoints and hella good aerials.

: He actually does kinda alright here. Close to even, but it'd be more in Fox's favor if I had to pick. Though after the up throw buff, it'd definitely benefit Kirby more since he now has a good option to close out Fox's stock due to his own poor endurance. This set shows very well how the MU goes, imo. One of the best Fox players vs. one of the best Kirby players.

: Uh, how does Kirby win this again?? Villager is a monster at zoning and keeping people out, and Kirby is very susceptible to just that. Villager doesn't have much trouble killing off Kirby, especially with dtilt, utilt, and up air. His edgeguarding game is also potent to Kirby, especially since he can take advantage of Kirby's linear, slow recovery. Villager also has a frame 3 nair to break out of Kirby's combos. He's also practically impossible to edgeguard thanks to Balloon Trip covering so much distance and having good maneuverability.

: Wario beats Kirby as well. He has one of the best air speeds in the game, and can just air camp Kirby out most of the time on stages with platforms to get a free Waft charge. He can weave in and out with rising aerials, and back air is even a kill move. He benefits well from Rage thanks to him being a heavyweight, making it even more deadly if Kirby gets hit by something like his forward tilt, Waft, or his forward throw. It also helps Wario has one of the best command grabs in the game to assist him in racking up damage. Kirby can Inhale it and copy him, but good luck catching him first.

: As a running tread in this post, Kirby struggles against zoners. Unfortunately R.O.B. is one of the best of said field in the game, and can easily keep him out of his range with lasers, gyro and nair. Kirby's poor vertical survivability bites him here too since he's susceptible to being Beep-Booped (even if he can DI out of it), and R.O.B. has a myraid of finishers and moves that can put Kirby in an uncomfortable position. Down smash is a semi-spike, and Kirby hates semi-spikes. Up smash has a hitbox that pulls opponents into the actual hit, is great below platforms and comes out fast and has large range, and a fully charged Robo Beam is good for KOing offstage at high percents. R.O.B. is still combo food and Kirby goes get good reward once he gets in and penetrates his defenses, but it'll be a uphill battle for him to do so.

: I don't know how to feel about this one. Sometimes I feel like it's even, sometimes I feel like Kirby is at a big disadvantage thanks to Falcon's speed, juggle game, KOing power and great dash grab. Falcon is combo food like R.O.B. due to his high weight, but Kirby has trouble getting in thanks to Falcon's own great movement and frame data. Both characters are at a significant risk offstage due to their below-average recoveries, so I suppose that's a thing.

Oh dang it! I missed a bunch of characters. No worries. I'll add them. Also, I didn't include the Miis because I have no knowledge of them and they are basically excluded from all competitive play at this point.



Feelicks, I think you need to calm down already. You have spent the past few pages raging at people over their opinions. Just chill out. We're just trying to have a mature discussion and everyone has their own opinions.

Sorry if I've been getting heated, promise to be more chill about this entire thing. I really do take this kinda stuff way too seriously, and I apologize. It just bothers me when I see many people make the same incorrect statements a lot of times.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Got to serious to quick

 

[Xandercosm]

Sorry if I've been getting heated, promise to be more chill about this entire thing. I really do take this kinda stuff way too seriously, and I apologize. It just bothers me when I see many people make the same incorrect statements a lot of times.

Thank you for your acknowledgement. I think we all need to remember that this discussion is for the betterment of the community so we can feel out where all the characters stand in the metagame. So, we can all relax and enjoy working on our tier lists. It's actually quite enjoyable to discuss character placements.

 

[FamilyTeam]

For GOD's sake, people, I leave for 14 hours and you people write two entire pages of stuff.
Anyway, updated list.
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D:

E:

N/A:

• I must admit I kinda derped an put WFT a bit lower than I thought I did. Same reason the original didn't have G&W, I was going to think about it harder but then I forgot to change it before posting.
  
• I had never seen that many Shulks, so that's why he was higher than he probably should've been.
  
• Sometimes I forget it's not Mid 2015 when people still attempted to play Roy.
• Meta Knight is in the position he is because I think that's how good he is, yeah. Did some adjustments with Fox, though, so now he's lower.
• Lifted Dr. Mario a bit because he can be good and I've seen Nairo do well with him.
• I changed Zelda's position because I'm a bit biased and I didn't want to put her in last place... but yeah, I did. Sad.

What do you people think of this new one?
I really, really don't want to get into an argument as to why Lucie's lack of tipper isn't that big a deal.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Can people explain why they think shulk is bottom 10? He's bad, but not THAT bad.