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switching over

redzoneNRG

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
37
Location
Bay Area
Im thinking of moving my main from Lucas to Ness.

I just find Ness a little cooler in character design. I actually played his game before, and I like the baseball bat alot more than a stick style-wise.

Is there any information, or things I really need to focus on the make the transitions work? What aspects of Lucas's game will I have to switch, and what will I have to work on?
 

GhosTim14

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
59
Location
New Jersey
Im thinking of moving my main from Lucas to Ness.

I just find Ness a little cooler in character design. I actually played his game before, and I like the baseball bat alot more than a stick style-wise.

Is there any information, or things I really need to focus on the make the transitions work? What aspects of Lucas's game will I have to switch, and what will I have to work on?

Well I actually did the same thing so this will be easy for me to say:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:

Basically Lucas>Ness grounded, but Ness>Lucas when in the air.
What I'm saying is that with Ness you should focus on aerials rather than smashes.

Ness is (In my opinion a lil slower but more powerful) than Lucas.
Great example is their f-smashes Ness's Bat is Slower to get out than Lucas's stick, but his bat hits much harder.

Ness's f-air is, in my opinion, his best move for approach(has decent range, priority, and works great in combos).
Some of these include...

SHF-air-F-air
D-throw F-air or N-air
There are more but I can't remember them right now (its 6AM and I just got up)

Ness's PKfire can combo easier than Lucas's PKire His pkfire has many advanced techs here are vids.

B-Sticking Wavebouncing you should know since u use lucas)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g


PkJump Longer range pkfire.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QHePOJRNKE

Firebounding combines PKjump and Wavebouncing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Z7OFvZI6mQ


Ness's Best killing moves are.....
B-air
up-air
D-air (meteor smash)
f-smash
B-throw



Im not a Pro Ness user but he is one of my mains so this is what I can say for advice.
 

eHerbieInReverse

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
115
Location
San Diego, California
Ghost summed up a lot, but there's still plenty. I'll try to list some things specific to Ness but there probably will be some overlap.

Keep in mind that ALL of Ness' aerials, except his Fair, kill at decent percentages, just find out which ones to use:
Bair: What I call, his "Steel-Toe" sweet spot can kill pretty much with it's brute strength.
Dair: Spike with great range and pretty decent speed. (I suggest chasing someone who flew off the edge, run off the stage and double-jump + dair. With the new physics of Ness in Brawl, you may have a pretty sweet rising spike if you time it right; safe and effective.)
Uair: I've heard it's the strength of Donkey Kong's Uair, don't be afraid to throw it in there, it's stronger than it looks.
Nair: I can tell you how many times I've killed with this quick attack. Not only can you spam the hell out of it, but it also can be used for finishers. For example, spam fair until they fly off the stage, chase them with a full hopped fair, into another fair with a double jump, then finish off with a Nair when they try to get back. THen just work on getting back on the stage, which shouldn't be too hard.

Rule of thumb:
Know how to use PKThunder (and all of his other specials) optimally. As you should know by now, Ness' PKT is faster, arcs less and stops when the head makes contact with almost anything. The applications for his PKT, I would imagine are much different and varied than Lucas. It should be one of the forefronts of your offense and sometimes Defense. Some basics of PKT:

Tail-whipping: Basically, hitting someone with the trail of his PKT. This is very important in many cases because it allows you to keep the PKT while also damaging them. Usually, if you tailwhip, you can arc the head back to hit them, gaining anywhere from 2-5 more percents.
The Head: The head of PKT for Ness does roughly 8% and will usually knock the opponent in the angle that the head hit them in. For example, if you hit them on the upper left of the opponent's body, they'll fly in that general direction. Be creative with that.
PK Thunder 2 /PK Missile/ PK Rocket: Lucas has this, so you should be familiar with this. I'm sure you've seen that this move hits hard. Get used to it. Watch out for shield grabbing but definitely try to put this into your game with mind games. Trick them into thinking you're chasing them with PKT then whip it back and hit yourself towards them. Or, when they come diagonally from the air, let the PKT up a bit to whip them with the tail, then while they're airborne, being shocked, hit yourself into them.
Gimping Recoveries: I believe that, correct me if I'm wrong, Ness' PKT trail stuns the opponent longer than any part of Lucas' PKT. But with that in mind, try to use the tailwhipping technique as a way to stop people's recoveries like a wall. What I do, sometimes when I'm at risk with high percentages, is follow them off-stage with PKT, stun them with tailwhipping, and instead of hitting them with the head (which'll get them higher in the air which is risking them aerial attacking you for a KO), I'll turn the PKT back towards me, hit myself away from them as a method of hitting and running.

Quirks of Ness:
PK Fire Angle: PK Fire angles when used in the air. Get used to this as well.
Combo Potential: Ness is said to have a lot more combo potential than Lucas, get accustomed to which moves combo, and which don't. His combos tend to flow very nicely for myself. For example, if all goes well, you may get a PKFire->PKFire-> Dash attack - > Bair. That right there is easy enough to rack an upwards of 35% in 3 seconds.
The Yo-Yo I don't know if you've used it in Melee, but it's been greatly buffed in Brawl. It has decent knock back, good speed and good range. Use running U-Smashes in alternation with dash attacks. His charged USmash, when ran into, pops the opponent into the air just enough, usually, to hit them a second time when you release the charge.

This has gone on way too long. Haha, so yeah. Just ask specific questions if you want them. [: I'm willing to help. I really hoped this long response, in itself was of great assistance. But yeah, good luck and tell me whatcha think.

P.S. Welcome to the Ness-main club :p. Lucas to Ness, eh? Not many of those.
 

redzoneNRG

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
37
Location
Bay Area
Thanks for the inputs.

Ima test him out today. I like that he is more arial rather than ground-based. It will take alot of time to get used to the PK Fire angle. I spammed the living heck out of Lucass.

Do you know how much damage his fair does, and does it have any significant knockback?

Also, what are some useful ways to use his yo-yos?
 

Arcade

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
506
Location
North Dakota
I think f-air does 13% when all hits land. Maybe 11%, I can't quite remember. Only the last hit has any real knockback, and it's only mediocre. Upside is you can often pressure an opponent off the stage with it, as someone said earlier.

I like to use a running upsmash a lot, as it puts them up in the air ripe for PKT and aerials, and does good damage. It's best when your opponent is playing aggressively. I only really use downsmash to punish roll-spammers and hit someone just behind me when I think shothopping an aerial would be too slow.

As a Ness player you'll want to do a lot more grabbing than Lucas players do. Ness has a great dash grab (after you learn the somewhat odd spacing, he sort of jumps forward a bit and grabs a little further than he actually is) and great throws. Up and down throws set up for aerials and the back throw is his most reliable kill move IMO, dishing out death at ~130%.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
5,725
Location
Bowie, MD
NNID
Mikman360
**** this has to be the most helpful board ever. You guys didn't leave me, Mr. "Ness technical man" anything to explain.

Well, Ness and Lucas play nothing alike, so be careful with mixing them up. Also, PKT mindgames play a HUGE role in most pro Ness' games.

But I don't want you to ditch Lucas. Play them both! That's what all the cool people do.
 

eHerbieInReverse

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
115
Location
San Diego, California
Haha EB360 :p.

But yeah, forward throws have a somewhat fixed distance I think, so it is great for setting up early spikes or getting nice spacing done.

Backwards throw is like 100% proportional to the damage they have. Meaning, it will throw them almost nowhere at 0%.

Let me let you on to a little trick I know, though hehe : What I usually do if given the chance, is back throw an opponent off the stage, when you're really close to the edge, when they have less than 20%. They will usually try to double jump their way back the instant they can. This usually is very predictable and scores you a free Short-Hopped Bair to their face because they jump right into it [: Get me?

For the Yo-yo's. I would suggest using and charging it if you see your opponent is getting very aggressive as someone mentioned earlier. Basically, if they're running a lot. charge your up-smash and they may be tempted to hit you ASAP and they usually run into the yo-yo itself if you don't use it too often. Another practical use for the Yo-yo may be if you see someone shielding/shield-grabbing often. Run up to them, charge the yo-yo just close enough to hit them with it. As they shield, the yo-yo should damage the shield as well as when you release the charge. This, many times will not only eat through the shield and send them upwards, but also leaves you less vulnerable to a shield grab than a dash attack because of the spacing.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
5,725
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Bowie, MD
NNID
Mikman360
Ness' usmash is one of da best in da game.

Seriously. It's double hit insane duration, good priority, mindgamey, setuping, range endowed, speedy loveliness is too much to not like. The KO ability sucks, but thats all.
 

redzoneNRG

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
37
Location
Bay Area
Well today was day 1 of Ness Training. I did really good. Beat all my opponenets who stepped in my way...except Ivysaur, but thats another thread I suppose.

I really spammed his yoyos and fell in love with them incredibly. His air fights alot different than Lucas's, but I made use of fair as an approach. I use PKT alot more also.

I still short hop spam the PK Fire like crazy, but thats just my Lucas player coming into action. I found the pillar of fire really great to get in other quick hits.

Backthrow was my number one killer. BAir and Forward Smash were second and third. I really could not hit the Dair the whole night. I got it off like three times on 30 attempts, I just missed it, or missed timed it , and got punished for it usually. I really need to improve that.

And using PK thunder to edgeguard is alot more difficult than with Lucas. Off topic, I had a sweet moment where I missed with my pk thunder, and Ivysaur jumped down infront of me after air dodging it, and landed right when my PK thunder collided with my , PKT2 him off the screen.

And I still play Lucas...he'll probably be my secondary. Ness is just alot more fun after playing him today. Nothing beats that Bair sweetspot dropkick. I used Lucas every once in a while also to keep it fresh. And ZSS if the Psi Kids werent doing their jobs. Haha.

Thanks for the input you all have gave me , Like Earthbound said, really helpful.
 

GhosTim14

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
59
Location
New Jersey
**** this has to be the most helpful board ever. You guys didn't leave me, Mr. "Ness technical man" anything to explain.

Well, Ness and Lucas play nothing alike, so be careful with mixing them up. Also, PKT mindgames play a HUGE role in most pro Ness' games.

But I don't want you to ditch Lucas. Play them both! That's what all the cool people do.

Do You do that EB?
 

plasmid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
176
Location
Hawaii
PK thunder looks the same but is much faster and a little different, but thats probably the easiest thing to get used to.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
5,725
Location
Bowie, MD
NNID
Mikman360
Do You do that EB?
Yesh with a capitol 4

Also, are there any use for his tilts? I found them...well , incredibly lacking compared to Lucas's.
Yesh, but they're not as good as Lucas'

Ftilt can be used the same, just remember it cannot be used repeatedly.
Ness' utilt has nothing on Lucas' onther than a bit more kill power, but who uses this to kill?
Ness' dtilt is better. More damage, more hits, more speed, more tripping, only less range. The dtilt always has a 50% chance of tripping while Lucas' needs to be sweetspotted at the tip. And when you trip someone, if you stop dtilting, it can lead into almost anything (yesh the bat).

Also Redzone, congrats on that PKT2 kill you mentioned earlier. That's just stop numero uno on the mindgames tour of PKT. Play around with PKT, and you'll find hitting with PKT2 is a LOT easier than it may seem.

If you wanna spam PKF like Lucas, check out PK Cross thread I made. it's got great tips on how you can use PKF more effectively.
 

eHerbieInReverse

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
115
Location
San Diego, California
Mmmm, his FTilt, I find very useful actually. At over 100% it's pretty lethal. Shield their smash into Ftilting them us pretty nice.

UTilt is pretty good at low percentages. Leads to 2-3 hit combos racking in over 20%. [:

I'm really glad you're doing well with Ness, Redzone. Try out his pivot PK Fire for more spammability (it helps tremendously), as well as his Pivot Bats. Both of which do more than you think in terms of usability and landing chances. [:
 

Emperor Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
59
One thing you need to know about Ness is that his back throw and Bair(when sweet spoted) are more reliable finishers than his bat cause its too slow.



Btw I also switched from Lucas to Ness but it doesn't really mean I don't ever pick Lucas.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
5,725
Location
Bowie, MD
NNID
Mikman360
Check out PK Cross for information on Firebound
It's a guide of mine floating somewhere aroud the Ness boards
 
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