Switching to Zamus Mid-match: Invaluable?

[JettythatSamus]

In melee, let's say a person mained Sheik. There was a nice way to start the match using Sheik, and she was a very fast character with good grabs and aerials.
Now, I think most people would agree with me in saying that if you wanted to use Zelda, you either:

a. Learned how to use peach a lil bit
b. Used peach instead because of her strength
c. Used Zelda exclusively, and not Sheik so much.
d. Did not switch between the two mid-match unless to use Zelda's recovery.

The point is that in melee, the two character's were worlds different, and you did not see the usefulness in learning both character's movesets to the point where she could be considered a double main. I could be incorrect, but work with me here as I try to state what I'm really trying to say.

In Brawl, Samus is an amazing character. Yes, it is still difficult to win with her, it is difficult to kill using attacks instead of gimping recovery, but she is great. The zair, her comboing ability, and her recovery are all wonderful. We watch videos of Hylian and Mars and Dyna and Hugs, but we are ALL missing one very important thing, I feel.

Zero Suit Samus is just as good.
She can kill on the ground. She can grab in the air. She is faster. Sweetspotting the bair still kills, dairing still spikes (just watch out), and since Samus aerials have to be aimed carefully Zamus' won't be difficult at all to master.

So WHY ISN'T ANYONE LEARNING BOTH CHARACTERS SO THEY CAN SWITCH MID MATCH???

This is nothing like Sheik/Zelda.
Zamus has a completely different approach style, which means that if you just put a little dedication into it, you could totally destroy your opponent's confidence and concentration if all of the sudden you weren't zairing as much, but still stunning your opponent from a distance.

Maybe Samus was gimped for a reason. Even without a smash ball handy, in a four stock match, if you removed two stocks off of your opponent, and then switched styles, you're easily going to remove two more theoretically before your opponent catches on to your new methods. This could be huge.

C'mon guys!! I think we have something here. Learn both of these characters. Everything Samus lacks Zamus has, and vice versa. Start a match as Samus for sure, but be ready to switch up the game. With a simple up+down+up on the dpad while your opponent is sent over the top or off the sides, you add some increased tension to the match.

I'm going to practice a bit more, and then I hope to come up with some videos. I really think this is something that should be looked into.

 

[MrNaruhodou]

Doesn't switching to zss leave you open a bit? Unless you just KOed the opponent, switching to zss is risky, imo.

 

[ADHD]

Sorry but I'm not attached to zero suit, and I don't want to ruin ZSS's precious boobies in battle

 

[Cobra]

C'mon guys!! I think we have something here. Learn both of these characters. Everything Samus lacks Zamus has, and vice versa. Start a match as Samus for sure, but be ready to switch up the game. With a simple up+down+up on the dpad while your opponent is sent over the top or off the sides, you add some increased tension to the match.

I'm going to practice a bit more, and then I hope to come up with some videos. I really think this is something that should be looked into.

...the reason why Sheik/Zelda isa viable combination is because you can start the match off with Sheik, rack up damage fast with her speed and then transform to Zelda for the kill.

THEN, while they are in the process of dying/respawning, transform back to Sheik to repeat the process.


...Samus cannot do this. You get ONE transformation, then you're stuck (unless you're playing with Smash balls, in which case you aren't seriously playing anyways). That's why you don't see this...it's an all or nothing transformation with no way back. I can see the argument from a "mixing it up" style of play hoping to confuse, but still...it's just not as viable an option as Zelda/Sheik since there is no way back.

 

[JettythatSamus]

...the reason why Sheik/Zelda isa viable combination is because you can start the match off with Sheik, rack up damage fast with her speed and then transform to Zelda for the kill....


...Samus cannot do this. You get ONE transformation, then you're stuck (unless you're playing with Smash balls, in which case you aren't seriously playing anyways). That's why you don't see this...it's an all or nothing transformation with no way back.

But that's not my point. This isn't melee, and in brawl, Zamus isn't a character good only for killing. You don't NEED to go back to Samus for good combos and moves. There are combos for Zamus that do an easy 55% just like samus. My point is that the variety of play styles you can create from learning both characters really make learning the two invaluable, since your opponent will now have to switch his strategy mid match, and watch out for the increased use of different moves coming from you.

*EDIT: I'm not plugging ZSS solely. I absolutely love Samus to death, and am excited at her potential despite her drawbacks. I'm simply saying, if we adopt the mindset that without all that armor on Samus kicks *** in a different way, we can still be Samus.*

Think of it this way. Most character's **** samus in melee combat, but they can't do that with Zamus. Her neutral A combo is better, and her dsmash stuns. But Samus has a projectile game that really sets you up for some good control of the stage and match, if you know what you're doing.

If you establish control with Samus, then your opponent will make mistakes you can capitalize on once he assumes that control is lost with ZSS.

For example: You could spend the first couple of stocks "training" your opponent to attack you from the air while you're on the ground with multiple projectiles and a sparing use of Up+B out of shield. Then, when you switch, you still spam projectiles, but now when your opponent approaches you, you can do what samus couldn't, which is effectively upsmash them into some good uair combos or whatever. Now your opponent has to come at you from the ground, outspam your projectiles, or accept ownage as his fate.

You change, and being familiar with both characters who have similiarities makes it easy for you to continue your playstyle, while your opponent stays the same character and must adjust to you without you having to do the same.

 

[Da N]

I change mid battle i just havnt posted any vids online yet becuasei don't have a camera or a way to record it yet.

Ive gotten realy good with the taunt transform, being able to do it in only about a second (not couting the actual transormation) but i only do it when im at low percentages so i don't get killed.

The only thing im dissapointed about is that Samus's super missils have gotten a lot worse.

 

[GotACoolName]

There's no point. There's nothing the two incarnations can do with synergy, so there aren't any viable reasons to do this other than to "destroy your opponent's confidence and concentration", but I've never heard of someone breaking down like that in the middle of a game. It's way more trouble than it's worth.

 

[JettythatSamus]

I disagree. I'm seeing people approach this with a melee mentality.

 

[Gum]

I disagree. I'm seeing people approach this with a melee mentality.

ZS is one of my proficient characters and I do switch sometimes, but I only do it if I need to either catch up on a stock or if I want to take my opponents last stock really quick and I can afford to do so (but mostly just to **** around if I know I can win the match).

Now, Im a Samus main, and this is my argument from a Brawl standpoint. If you are really good with Samus, you really have no reason to change mid match at all. At this point, you have found ways to KO your opponent at reasonable %'s, and you can manuever and mind game well. Even though ZS has a good moveset, she does in fact have LESS options than Samus in many situations. Not to mention the fact that Samus is more resilient than ZS. By changing mid match, you MIGHT do just as well, but because you cant change back, you could also end up regretting your decision. In a nutshell, Samus has more survivability and larger number of approaches, which gives her more versatility than ZS, so in most cases there is no point.

Also, most characters do NOT **** Samus in melee combat (incorporate short hop dair into your close range combat and you will see what I mean) and ZS's neutral A combo is most certainly garbage and should't even be used all the way. Its better to jab cancel into a tilt than finish the whole thing. In fact Samus' first jab is more useful that Zs's entire A combo. True story man.

 

[Hylian]

Um....

Zamus's jab >>>>> Samus's jab.

 

[Gum]

yeahhh...no. wtf r u talking about?

 

[Eldiran]

Um....

Zamus's jab >>>>> Samus's jab.

Can't you... interrupt Zamus' jab? I've also heard lots of rants about Samus' jab having spectacular priority, not that rants are reliable...

 

[nandez]

I change mid-match but usually only during Sudden Death or if I'm playing one on one with someone using a speedy character and/or uses a lot of mindgames.

 

[JettythatSamus]

Can't you... interrupt Zamus' jab? I've also heard lots of rants about Samus' jab having spectacular priority, not that rants are reliable...

Samus jab is amazing for clanks, and very strong when jc'ed, but Zamus' three hit combo is faster and has the same knockback on the last hit.

 

[Visani]

I assumed everyone who seriously used Samus to be proficient with ZSS and visa versa.

You don't have to be good with ONLY one character. No one is forced to stick with one character the entire time they play. You aren't cheating on Samus with ZSS. Trust me, they don't mind.

The play styles of Samus and ZSS are different. Being able to switch to a completely different character mid-match is something I would consider to be advantageous. Not being able to or refusing to, is just hurting yourself. Sure you can't change back. Why would you change to begin with if it did not give you an advantage?

Time will show which match ups will favor either Samus or ZSS. If you find yourself in a match where ZSS would be a better choice than Samus, why on earth would you stay Samus? Bragging rights?

 

[GotACoolName]

Being able to switch to a completely different character mid-match is something I would consider to be advantageous. Not being able to or refusing to, is just hurting yourself.

How do you figure? I can imagine that destroying the Power Suit midmatch and leaving yourself open to attack is more suicidal than just sticking to one character throughout the match.

 

[distr0ia]

just for the record

the very first thing I did after getting Brawl was dedicate a good 2-3 weeks to becoming well aquainted with both Samus & ZSS and it does have it's rewards...but I dunno...I'll always have a place in my personal roster for Sammy, but playing her is just frustrating now; especially after familiarizing myself with the other characters and analyzing Sammy in relation to the rest of the cast

I always tell myself that I'm through b*tching about it and I'm just going to get over it, but come ON! LOL why did they take sooooo much away from her!? her missiles & bombs are so sh*tty now, it's mind boggling. I just can't get my head around it. yeah, you can still make things happen with her, but is it worth it? she's simply not as fun to play now and don't tell me that I have to immediately forget everything about Melee after maining Samus for 5+ years, 'cause that's just not how it works. I haven't completely given up on her yet, but her future with me ain't looking too bright and I've already taken a bigger interest in Mario


P.S. if you happen to be playing with smash balls and you K.O. anyone with Samus's FS, all they have to do is fast-fall off of the revival platform, run right up next to you while you're transforming, charge up a smash attack and BOOM; you're a grease spot....uh-huh, that's just great. thanks for that

P.S.S. her zair is nifty little trick to mix it up, but if you think that it's somehow going to bring her from awful to awesome, you're in for a big surprise. *shrug* sorry...Samus players have a tough road ahead of them and that's a FACT

 

[0RLY]

Samus is pure awesomeness for her spectacular ability to control your opponents with perfect spacing tools such as her aerials, hmissles, screw attack, jabs, ftilt, etc. I can use these great moves in conjunction with her weight and speed to a very powerful degree.

Though I did at one point try to master Zamus, I did not feel the same qualities in her moves that I felt with Samus. Zamus was fun to use when I first started, but spawning with suit parts beneath you puts you at a somewhat unfair advantage.

Also, I have trouble using 3 of her aerials fair, dair, and nair. They feel as if they have no use. Some may disagree with her fair though. I find her fair to be similar to cfalcon's without the combo utility that I miss in Samus and my other character's fairs. Uair and bair are usable due to their similarity to other character's bairs and uairs.

Her jumps are also crazy weird. Her shorthop is too high, her double jump is too high (I guess that power suit really weighs her down, eh?), her wall jump is too low, her Bv wall jump can't be controlled and you can only attack out of it (or footstool if applicable). Her Bv also is hard to use as a recovery move since it, in reality, only gets horizontal distance and all you can do is perform the sex kick which will lead to your death if used too late.

In general, Zamus doesn't 'flow' through combat the way I would like her to. Her individual attributes are good, such as strength, comboability, and such. I just don't feel right when I use her. Samus ftw.


---
On a side note: Does anyone ever remember seeing a movie made by Monty Oum entitled, Haloid? Zero Suit Samus is wonderfully portrayed in that I was really hoping for brawl to make Zamus similar to that.

 

[JettythatSamus]

In general, Zamus doesn't 'flow' through combat the way I would like her to. Her individual attributes are good, such as strength, comboability, and such. I just don't feel right when I use her. Samus ftw.

This doesn't have anything to do with what you're saying really but have you ever tried dittos (termed loosely) with a Samus and a Zamus?

Samus beats herself hands down without her suit on. Try it. Even with the zair, you'll realize the potential that she has more agile like that.

 

[Gum]

Samus jab is amazing for clanks, and very strong when jc'ed, but Zamus' three hit combo is faster and has the same knockback on the last hit.

ZS's jab combo can be shield grabbed in the middle of it, plus other characters can interrupt it easily with their own jab combo because of its lack of stun between the hits. Its terrible. The first jab is fine, but doing the whole thing sucks. Better to jc dtilt or something.

 

[k4polo]

Samus is pure awesomeness for her spectacular ability to control your opponents with perfect spacing tools such as her aerials, hmissles, screw attack, jabs, ftilt, etc. I can use these great moves in conjunction with her weight and speed to a very powerful degree.

Though I did at one point try to master Zamus, I did not feel the same qualities in her moves that I felt with Samus. Zamus was fun to use when I first started, but spawning with suit parts beneath you puts you at a somewhat unfair advantage.

Also, I have trouble using 3 of her aerials fair, dair, and nair. They feel as if they have no use. Some may disagree with her fair though. I find her fair to be similar to cfalcon's without the combo utility that I miss in Samus and my other character's fairs. Uair and bair are usable due to their similarity to other character's bairs and uairs.

Her jumps are also crazy weird. Her shorthop is too high, her double jump is too high (I guess that power suit really weighs her down, eh?), her wall jump is too low, her Bv wall jump can't be controlled and you can only attack out of it (or footstool if applicable). Her Bv also is hard to use as a recovery move since it, in reality, only gets horizontal distance and all you can do is perform the sex kick which will lead to your death if used too late.

In general, Zamus doesn't 'flow' through combat the way I would like her to. Her individual attributes are good, such as strength, comboability, and such. I just don't feel right when I use her. Samus ftw.


---
On a side note: Does anyone ever remember seeing a movie made by Monty Oum entitled, Haloid? Zero Suit Samus is wonderfully portrayed in that I was really hoping for brawl to make Zamus similar to that.

Hmm I am the opposite actually. I main ZSS and I am learning Samus for the heck of it. Samus feels very slow to me and feels like a ranged defensive fighter. I find it hard to connect with her moves because of her speed.

I feel as though my speed is at a huge disadvantage to me. I whiff alot. Samus doesn't flow right with me at all but I still trying. (I am a speed-type character person). I feel as tho anybody who is fast has an advantage against her but its IMO.

With ZSS's Jabs, from my understanding, it can be shield canceled into another attack. An expert ZSS never finishes the jab combo but does the first hit then shield cancel(I forgot the technique name, DDD has it,I think it is jab cancel or fake) then a tilt. Usually down tilt/Up tilt then combo/pillaring. From my understanding it is a guessing game after the first jab. I don't think it can shield grab if you do an up tilt after one jab is blocked.Up tilt is fast with her.

Also an Expert Samus vs an Expert Zamus would be very interesting to see. I wish someone would do this and youtube it. IT be fun to watch.

And yes I seen Haloid and I agree with you.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I've already learned to use both of them proficiently. I prefer Samus due to her superior camping and, of course, the airdodge canceling, but Zero Suit Samus is amazing too, because I can simply switch playstyles on a dime.
Learning both characters isn't a bad idea. However, it isn't essential. It isn't even necessary.

 

[Subach]

Because I hate what ZSS represents: A desperate ploy to sell more Metroid titles in Japan through the use of the "sex sells" strategy. Not only do I dislike that Nintendo would do this to my favorite and the most badass video game character ever, but I just don't her fighting style, period.

Her aerial maneuverability sucks in every way which severely reduces the effectiveness of her (I shall admit) good aerials, her ranged moves have crappy lag and her quicker moves have crappy range and priority.

I simply can't create with her that GTFO buffer zone that Samus has which allows me to move in on my opponent when and where the hell I want.
If I felt the need to use ZSS as a counter, I'll change BEFORE the match so I'm not ***** by my own power suit.
Never mind, the power suit pieces still spawn even if you go into the match as ZSS, correct?

 

[Chozo01]

If I felt the need to use ZSS as a counter, I'll change BEFORE the match so I'm not ***** by my own power suit.
Never mind, the power suit pieces still spawn even if you go into the match as ZSS, correct?

Yes, but at least you can't get hit during the tranformation and you can just throw the pieces offscreen.

 

[Boolossus]

I really do like Zamus. The funny thing is, that there are FAR more people who just start the match as Zamus and never touch Samus.

I would like to do this, but it's just too darn hard to transform. I usually have to input up down on the dpad for a good 5 seconds until I'm able to transform. And what's more, once I've done it a few times in a day, I can't do it again for a while; my hands are too tired!

 

[0RLY]

Hmm I am the opposite actually. I main ZSS and I am learning Samus for the heck of it. Samus feels very slow to me and feels like a ranged defensive fighter. I find it hard to connect with her moves because of her speed.

Preferences eh? I guess that's why I love using Ike and Ganon as well. And ranged defensive fighters=love. Movement speed is a slight problem, as is falling speed. Her attacks are quick though. If Samus could fall faster, she could make better use of her lag-free aerials. Cmon, that several hundred kilograms of armor has to do SOMETHING!

I feel as though my speed is at a huge disadvantage to me. I whiff alot. Samus doesn't flow right with me at all but I still trying. (I am a speed-type character person). I feel as tho anybody who is fast has an advantage against her but its IMO.

I respect your opinion. Don't do it again. (lol JAY KAY)

With ZSS's Jabs, from my understanding, it can be shield canceled into another attack. An expert ZSS never finishes the jab combo but does the first hit then shield cancel(I forgot the technique name, DDD has it,I think it is jab cancel or fake) then a tilt. Usually down tilt/Up tilt then combo/pillaring. From my understanding it is a guessing game after the first jab. I don't think it can shield grab if you do an up tilt after one jab is blocked. Up tilt is fast with her.

I admit, Zamus has an awesome uptilt. Jabs were made to be canceled! =3

Also an Expert Samus vs an Expert Zamus would be very interesting to see. I wish someone would do this and youtube it. It would be fun to watch.

*Bets 9999 coins on Samus* >:Y

And yes I seen Haloid and I agree with you.

Those jet boots would've been awesome! I would SO give up her B-up or B-down for that! (Preferably b-down, pillaring with B-up is too good) All those fancy (and sexy) whip combos would look so sweet (and broken) in brawl!

Comments in bold/italics.

 

[k4polo]

*Bets 9999 coins on Samus* >:Y

Bet Accepted lol.

 

[3Years]

sry jet but i personally dont like zamus so i just stay samus through out the match

 

[Hylian]

Hmm I am the opposite actually. I main ZSS and I am learning Samus for the heck of it. Samus feels very slow to me and feels like a ranged defensive fighter. I find it hard to connect with her moves because of her speed.

I feel as though my speed is at a huge disadvantage to me. I whiff alot. Samus doesn't flow right with me at all but I still trying. (I am a speed-type character person). I feel as tho anybody who is fast has an advantage against her but its IMO.

With ZSS's Jabs, from my understanding, it can be shield canceled into another attack. An expert ZSS never finishes the jab combo but does the first hit then shield cancel(I forgot the technique name, DDD has it,I think it is jab cancel or fake) then a tilt. Usually down tilt/Up tilt then combo/pillaring. From my understanding it is a guessing game after the first jab. I don't think it can shield grab if you do an up tilt after one jab is blocked.Up tilt is fast with her.

Also an Expert Samus vs an Expert Zamus would be very interesting to see. I wish someone would do this and youtube it. IT be fun to watch.

And yes I seen Haloid and I agree with you.

The match of the week on www.smashbrawlrankings.com is My samus vs a good ZSS. Go look.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

The match of the week on www.smashbrawlrankings.com is My samus vs a good ZSS. Go look.

You are my god. That was amazing!

 

[Ares And Enyo]

that zero suit has no idea how to play off the edge ... far from expert

SHE JUST LETS YOU RECOVER AHH WTF! :'(

good game though

I do have to agree with Hylian though ZS jab >> samus jab ... comon it is a hit on frame one attack .... I mean really (not to say though that samus jab is bad ... just ZS is better)

 

[JettythatSamus]

I noticed that the beginning of the match no one just jumped in and started getting owned. There was a very stragetic and long period of proper spacing being set up first. Especially good considering the frustration those suit pieces were causing both players.