Taj is the best Mewtwo (Ask Taj Stuff Thread)

[KAOSTAR]

if anybody has anything they want me to look at Id prob be willing to if I am able. Right now I was just messing around with some stuff, making sure I know how to collect the frame data so that I can put it to good use aka finally make a thread.

Yea pretty much. The Fsmash oos and Dsmash oos, tho cool, are over all just too slow. The smashes themselves are slow and then u have to use dj **** and landing which wastes another like 9 frames or something on top of the hitboxes not being out for another 18-20 frames.

I was only considering Dtilt, for certain moves. Like sometimes raptor boost will be just outside of shield grab range, but it will still be inside dtilt range. I normally just WD and punish anyway, but I was thinking potentially catching somebody off guard with an attack the didnt expect.

I just thought it was interesting that you can actually Dtilt oos(active hitbox) vs some attacks b4 they even regain control of their character ie they cannot shield it. I agree in that it prob wouldnt be of much use vs space animals. possibly, if they WD away, or fade back with their aerial and shine....but Id prob rather sit in my shield and try to get away.

So far dtilt oos has worked on raptor boost, fox upsmash tho he was too far unless you shield DI, and falcos fsmash


Just for referenceerfect nair


0 knee bend
1
2
3
4 input double jump/wait
5 Wait/ input double jump
6 wait/attack
7 attack
8
9
10
11 comes out
12 comes out
13
14
15

Its actually faster to allow yourself to jump and then dj and attack vs dj a frame earlier...and then having to wait 2 frames so your hitboxes will actually come out.

 

[AXE 09]

Holy crap Kaostar. I'm gonna have to try all this stuff out

 

[KAOSTAR]

OMG. M2s uptilt hitbox is beautiful. Its almost as big as him, and its only 1 frame slower than dtilt, as far as getting a hitbox out.

There is a small hitbox on frame 6, but on frame 7 when M2 is on his head..that **** will eat the **** outta fox falco nairs(takes 4 frames to come out). Its literally a wall a little bigger than twice width of falco and its just as tall, but it starts a lil off the ground so it reaches higher than falco.

I would have never thought that M2s uptilt was better suited for stopping frontal attacks than ones from above. Its crazy disjointed in the front.(frame 7 below)

Also, I was thinking about a post that Taj made some time ago, I think in the Philosophy thread, I couldnt find it but he was basically talking about how at times it could be advantageous to take hits and leave yourself "open" as a bait and basically was saying how in depth this game really is.

Idk if u have put much thought into it, and it never occurred to me because I have never intentionally taken a hit to put myself in a better position...at least in the regards to CCed and baiting. Its just never been my style and I try to avoid getting hit at all cost. Getting hit as M2 ****ing sucks lol, I dont mind as much with other characters, but I really try to stay at low percents, I think its more I just never want to be on the dying end of a trade.

But after all that mumbo jumbo I was only asking what do you think about using confusion, to bait a backair. A situation in which by not truly being in control, M2 is in fact in control. Basically confusion lasts 55 frames, the opponent is in Mewtwo throw animation for 28 frames, which means frame 27 u can input your attack. Take Falco for example, the soonest he can hit M2 is frame 48. But its required that you Fade in pretty much the whole time in order to even reach. More experienced PPl will start to use that bair to punish the idea of using the move confusion lol.

But what if thats what you want them to do. A situation...they have mid to high damage, u may have just lost a stock, or are at low percent. On alot of ppl it may be beneficial to just CC the bair and punish. If they dont tech, tech, or airdodge, that still keeps u in an advantageous situation, but they are forced to choose and it may end up on the wrong end for them.

Idk so much of this game is just mindset, Ive always thought of getting baired as **** this move sucks, they are in complete control, but I dont know if thats completely the case anymore....thoughts.??? (and also low platforms is coo)

 

[V3ctorMan]

uhh yeah

Yoshi > Mewtwo...

even w/that amazing data...

/troll still love the M2 players and Taj <3

 

[omgwtfToph]

yea yoshi *****

m2 sucks lol

 

[V3ctorMan]

^lol woot

what he said...

I still love M2 though

 

[ChivalRuse]

That u-tilt hitbox is just plain sexy.

 

[stingers]

dang @ that utilt hitbox. will use more

 

[Shadow Huan]

So I was just ****ing around with some AR stuff, and I realized....again, that M2 like peach/ness can do smash attacks oos.

From my exp and talking to Vman, upsmash oos is decent but thats simply jump canceled and probably definitely the fastest lol, requiring only 1 frame to start your jump and then another to start the attack.

but Im gonna **** around with Fsmash/dsmash to see if I can even do it in a combat situation. Basically the rundown is

from shield
0 start kneebend
1
2
3
4 start DJ
5 Press A to "start nair"(you havent even left the ground yet)
6 landing 0
7 landing 1
8 landing 2
9 landing 3 Flick c stick/input smash attack
10 attack animation
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 Fsmashhitbox
29 Fsmash
30 Dsmash hitbox
31 Dsmash

Fsmash has more range but Dsmash you get done faster because you can IASA cancel like 10 frames or so b4 the move animation ends. It takes like 15-16 frames just to drop your shield by releasing R/L.

and obviously you can just use fair or nair oos if its permitted, but they do have less range but the attacks themselves come out on frame 5. 5 to jump and then 5 to attack, so a third of the time. but maybe you can catch somebody while they are landing using fsmash or something.

and I think I can actually fsmash oos nearly frame perfectly, The reason I say this is because you only have a 2 frame window at which you can aerial and not leave the ground, so if you can do it at all then ur either frame 7 or 6. 0-4 prejump, 5 dj 6, 7 attack.

Those nairs have to be frame perfect(attack animation starts on frame 8, hitbox comes out 13) in order to just get the single hitbox and players, you, me, vman are able to do those. The hardest part is acting when the shield stun end.
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**** LMAO, I just realized that you dont have to smash attack lol, you can do whatever you want. Its the only thing Ive tried so far but you can for sure punish falcos fsmash with your dtilt oos. Same **** from above except the dtilt comes out on frame 5 which is hella faster. Also if you hold down during your jumps and shield stun its precision thats actually doable.

I was only experimenting with the smash attack and as of right now I dont recommend trying to do them oos(except upsmash), unless ur just trying to show off and not do any damage.

Possible punishes...dtilt oos

Falco, Fsmash
Falcon Raptorboost
fox upsmash

if anybody has anything they want me to look at Id prob be willing to if I am able. Right now I was just messing around with some stuff, making sure I know how to collect the frame data so that I can put it to good use aka finally make a thread.

Yea pretty much. The Fsmash oos and Dsmash oos, tho cool, are over all just too slow. The smashes themselves are slow and then u have to use dj **** and landing which wastes another like 9 frames or something on top of the hitboxes not being out for another 18-20 frames.

I was only considering Dtilt, for certain moves. Like sometimes raptor boost will be just outside of shield grab range, but it will still be inside dtilt range. I normally just WD and punish anyway, but I was thinking potentially catching somebody off guard with an attack the didnt expect.

I just thought it was interesting that you can actually Dtilt oos(active hitbox) vs some attacks b4 they even regain control of their character ie they cannot shield it. I agree in that it prob wouldnt be of much use vs space animals. possibly, if they WD away, or fade back with their aerial and shine....but Id prob rather sit in my shield and try to get away.

So far dtilt oos has worked on raptor boost, fox upsmash tho he was too far unless you shield DI, and falcos fsmash


Just for referenceerfect nair


0 knee bend
1
2
3
4 input double jump/wait
5 Wait/ input double jump
6 wait/attack
7 attack
8
9
10
11 comes out
12 comes out
13
14
15

Its actually faster to allow yourself to jump and then dj and attack vs dj a frame earlier...and then having to wait 2 frames so your hitboxes will actually come out.

OMG. M2s uptilt hitbox is beautiful. Its almost as big as him, and its only 1 frame slower than dtilt, as far as getting a hitbox out.

There is a small hitbox on frame 6, but on frame 7 when M2 is on his head..that **** will eat the **** outta fox falco nairs(takes 4 frames to come out). Its literally a wall a little bigger than twice width of falco and its just as tall, but it starts a lil off the ground so it reaches higher than falco.

I would have never thought that M2s uptilt was better suited for stopping frontal attacks than ones from above. Its crazy disjointed in the front.(frame 7 below)

Also, I was thinking about a post that Taj made some time ago, I think in the Philosophy thread, I couldnt find it but he was basically talking about how at times it could be advantageous to take hits and leave yourself "open" as a bait and basically was saying how in depth this game really is.

Idk if u have put much thought into it, and it never occurred to me because I have never intentionally taken a hit to put myself in a better position...at least in the regards to CCed and baiting. Its just never been my style and I try to avoid getting hit at all cost. Getting hit as M2 ****ing sucks lol, I dont mind as much with other characters, but I really try to stay at low percents, I think its more I just never want to be on the dying end of a trade.

But after all that mumbo jumbo I was only asking what do you think about using confusion, to bait a backair. A situation in which by not truly being in control, M2 is in fact in control. Basically confusion lasts 55 frames, the opponent is in Mewtwo throw animation for 28 frames, which means frame 27 u can input your attack. Take Falco for example, the soonest he can hit M2 is frame 48. But its required that you Fade in pretty much the whole time in order to even reach. More experienced PPl will start to use that bair to punish the idea of using the move confusion lol.

But what if thats what you want them to do. A situation...they have mid to high damage, u may have just lost a stock, or are at low percent. On alot of ppl it may be beneficial to just CC the bair and punish. If they dont tech, tech, or airdodge, that still keeps u in an advantageous situation, but they are forced to choose and it may end up on the wrong end for them.

Idk so much of this game is just mindset, Ive always thought of getting baired as **** this move sucks, they are in complete control, but I dont know if thats completely the case anymore....thoughts.??? (and also low platforms is coo)

so much technical stuff. i should probably dig out my setup and see about these smashes oos, i didn't know mewtwo could do that.

as for the utilt disjointed hitboxes will still eat it alive, but it's interesting that it reaches that far, i knew it has range but dang look at that lol.

while you're at it, where to the hitboxes for the three smashes extend to? esp Dsmash, that thing's BIG

 

[KAOSTAR]

don't worry about the smashes oos. the moves are naturally too slow except up smash, thats mainly because u can just jc up smash oos vs djc smash attack oos. its also twice as fast as d smash in terms of when a hit box comes out.

as far as hit boxes, as soon as I find the best way to make the gifs ill get em posted.

 

[Doval]

as for the utilt disjointed hitboxes will still eat it alive, but it's interesting that it reaches that far, i knew it has range but dang look at that lol.

Swords, possibly, but as you notice the trail it leaves covers a very wide area, so it could beat out a lot of things if you use the trail and not the tail itself. That thing could beat Jiggs' Pound.

I've read Sheiks sometimes use their f-tilt in this way to beat Fox's n-air instead of trading with it.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I guess I should get in the habit of up-tilting more. Maybe an up-tilt to a high f-tilt...

 

[KAOSTAR]

Obviously my suggestion is to simply use it occasionally to stop nairs, Ive tried it and it aight. Thing is uptilt has alot more cool down than dtilt, so if ur gonna use it u wanna be sure an attack is coming.

I dont recommend using it as an approach either, just moreso if they come to you.

Dont get spam happy or lazy because thinking this move will solve all your problems will get u baited almost every time and leave u in a world of hurt.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I used to be in a bad habit of spamming moves with Mewtwo. (Think d-tilt, fair, and up-throw) But I have gotten more varied now. But even now, the number of times I use an up-tilt in a match is about...zero. I think I should incorporate it in my game just to mix things up a bit. I shouldn't spam it because as you said, the lag time would leave me open to a attack if I up-tilt at the wrong time. I wonder if an up-tilt will help defend against a Dr. Mario nair or dair approach...

 

[Taj278]

I've found up tilt to be pretty strong against stopping Falcon approaches, but don't mess up! =D

 

[KAOSTAR]

Doing a turn around jab occasionally as you WD away seems to be really beneficial vs fox. The way I see a piece of the MU, once fox gets you to shield. Jus making good decisions to minimize the damage you take from those encounters is a very big portion of the MU, and also the more you can avoid that the less pressured u will feel. Im just saying that jab seems to be pretty decent at stopping nairs that are more on the spaced side.

anyone have any exp with using m2s jab and having it be effective? Im starting to think its not a complete piece of trash. I just think its bad as a traditional jab if u hit with it But I kinda like using it to punish jumps oos and short ranged aerials. Its slow for a jab but when u think about it its about the speed of foxes upsmash. If u catch ppl out of the air u are in the advantageous position, unlike hitting them on the ground. basically they have to fall and have 4 frames landing lag...also they cannot do an aerial being so low to the ground, or if they can its poorly spaced and adds more lag cuz they have to l cancel.

thoughts?

 

[Taj278]

I've been over this a few times, but yeah, Mewtwo's jab is best used as a soft interrupt for aerial approaches, something to deny out of shield and is best when they're too low to neutral air and they're forced into landing lag from the recovery. I like it a lot on peach players when I land a low-mid percentage down tilt so they're at the perfect height for jab and they can't neutral air in time, and essentially extending my combo so I can do another down tilt into forward air and possibly chase with up air or shadow balls.

It does like 6% the first time I think, so it's not absolutely horrible, but it's really bad. Having it come out in 8 frames makes it arguably Mewtwo's most situational move assuming people don't know about confusion. If it at least had more hit stun, or came out 4 frames, then it would fill that spacing role and hole in Mewtwo's game so much better.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Kind of random, but once its hitbox is out, Kirby's aerial up-b has amazing air to ground priority. I just decided this.

 

[Taj278]

I agree. Kirby for 25th best character!

 

[ChivalRuse]

He can take Pichu any day!

 

[The Phenom]

anyone have any exp with using m2s jab and having it be effective? Im starting to think its not a complete piece of trash. I just think its bad as a traditional jab if u hit with it But I kinda like using it to punish jumps oos and short ranged aerials. Its slow for a jab but when u think about it its about the speed of foxes upsmash. If u catch ppl out of the air u are in the advantageous position, unlike hitting them on the ground. basically they have to fall and have 4 frames landing lag...also they cannot do an aerial being so low to the ground, or if they can its poorly spaced and adds more lag cuz they have to l cancel.

thoughts?

I like the idea of this. I'll experiment with this tomorrow...

EDIT:Awesome post time for me....

 

[SleepyOwl]

I'm having trouble approaching with mew2 (when I dont want to shadow ball camp)

The only reasonably safe I have found is to wavedash -> dtilt, then combo from there, but obviously this doesn't work every time

I've been doing some DJC bair stuff, but marths **** that

Taj, how do you usually like to approach with mew2?

 

[Taj278]

Shadow balls and down tilt are generally your best moves for approaching. You don't just camp with shadow balls, you use them to influence your opponent to move in a way that you can out space them with down tilt, move them into neutral air range, and/or open up grab opportunities.

You have to be meticulous with your approach, because Mewtwo isn't like spacies. Mewtwo's approaches are kinda like Peach, but not as good I guess. The plus side is that Mewtwo can cross up and close in with teleports. You just have to keep trying to invade their comfort zone and beat them out with your grabs/tilts, or call their approaches and punish with dash dances and pivot shields that distort original spacing of their approaches.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Just a vid of m2ks m2. dont know if u guys have seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WvET6YM2c

LOL, but he used my djc fair regrab djc nair regrab dthrow >follow up tho(its not really mine but im claimin it lol )

 

[XAQ]

Excuse me, but taj sucks. m2k would be him a m2 isnt even m2ks main!

 

[SDC]

taj sucks

lol try harder next time

And here's my questions from the frame data thread that I thought would be better asked here:

1. The yellow boxes are Mewtwo's "hurtbox", right? So that means that his bair and uair are slightly disjointed, albeit a bit slow?

2. I've heard this a few times from different people, can you actually L-cancel his d-smash, and how, or is that just a rumor?

 

[Taj278]

1. Yes.
2.You can't L-cancel his down smash, but it does have a quick IASA. The confusion from those people is probably because you can shield so quickly after doing it.

 

[N64]

Taj is the greatest! I want to get not-consistently-3stocked next time we playyyy.

rarara

 

[SDC]

1. Yes.
2.You can't L-cancel his down smash, but it does have a quick IASA. The confusion from those people is probably because you can shield so quickly after doing it.

Thanks, and what exactly is "quick IASA", "immediate after shield action" lol? Does it basically mean it has low endlag?

 

[KAOSTAR]

u can cancel the ending animation of the d smash by doing an action. if u don't do anything u will see that d smash takes more time to finish.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I.e., IASA frames.

 

[XAQ]

mewtwo has very fast attacks but they take long time to charge up

 

[KAOSTAR]

o_0 once you "charge it up" all of M2s moves come out in 1 frame loololol

 

[SDC]

I've been playing more recently, and I noticed my mewtwo is (obviously) better in singles than in teams.

How do you play mewtwo in teams? What do you do, really?

 

[Taj278]

I ****. Nah, I just harass. I don't know why people talk about Mewtwo's size in teams. I spend like half the match being invincible, lol. Neutral airs set up for your teammate, I can pick at people with tilts, stab with more neutral airs, and Mewtwo's shield isn't great, but it is tied with Sheik for 3rd largest shield, so I can move in and force lag on people's attacks to break up combos.

You can't be too aggressive, and your up throw is pretty easy to interrupt since it doesn't make them a projectile until it completes unlike back throw. So, Mewtwo is kinda forced to play with more offensive characters since he's good at holding stocks. So basically Fox/Falco/Pikachu/Falcon are optimal, but I have had some success with DJN's Bowser at Pound 4 in friendlies, lol. Floaties don't work too well, but I can imagine Ganon/Marth/Marios doing ok, too.

So... TLDR, stay by ledges when people try to go after you. Move around the stage and look for opportunities to Neutral Air or isolate someone with your tilts. Hold stocks, save your teammates. Be annoying. You are one of the best 2v1 closers in the game with shadow ball infinite and your grab holds away from your body for easy team infinites. Play with a top tier.

 

[ShadowSpear]

Yo Taj, when i play people with my M2, i sometimes feel invincible and in control of the match. But, when my opponet breaks my rythem and flow, i find it difficult to take back my control over the match as M2 sometimes.

My question to you is: How should a M2 player react if their flow is broken during an intense match??

 

[Taj278]

If it is just rhythm and flow that seem off, I guess the best thing you can do is take your time, find your rhythm again because Mewtwo is one of the best characters for doing that, and if they fall into your pace while you're trying to find yours, great. If they're more reserved and wait for you, then take your time, then start working out how you're going to disrupt their flow.

Mewtwo can teleport stall, cross up, and move through anyone that approaches and indefinitely avoid anyone that stays away. If you survive a combo, he has a long recovery that gives you tons of space the higher you recover to safely land center stage or at ledge.

When you fall behind against most characters it really sucks for Mewtwo, because he's not as good at gimping, and a lot of spacing is done on a needle. The floatier character, the more likely that you're going to take more damage trying to catch up, and the more likely that they'll be able to camp you.

Keep your cool, minimize errors, take your time regaining your character control, and take your time in figuring the other player out because Mewtwo is one of the best characters for allowing you to do just that.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

taj it's good to see you still active on the mewtwo boards, just stopping by to say <3 and i hope to some day play you in this game again. maybe we'll team at something if i REALLY get into it (don't expect that to happen LOL)

 

[Taj278]

<3

That would be awesome.

How goes your MVC3 endeavors?

 

[AXE 09]

Taj!!!!!! Only 2 more posts until 1337