Taking another look at the Brawl ruleset

[Masky]

..........

 

[link2702]

just ban mk already and get it over with.

 

[Allied]

LOLOLOL dude its all good man

just take it to PM's brah i agree tho stingers is a little stupid drama boy XD:3

edit-
but MK is beatable dude haha its mad easy

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[o-Serin-o]

Seriously, just ****ing ban MK.


I'm kinda biased, but I'm not THAT biased.


MK = 5 jumps, glide, side b, nado. They all help planking.

Pit = 3 Jumps, up-b. This barely helps.

Jiggz = Light as hell. Pound. That is all.



All this **** wouldn't be happening with MK gone.

 

[RATED]

we have this options:

1. having scrooging banned, if the guy gets doing that the other player can pause tell TO( while the other is doing it) and reset the match in the same stage, since having infinite replays = hack and if we want smash as a MLG event again then its "profesional " and by that means nothing "illegal or hacked is not allowed." if the MK try it again in the other match , he lose just like that.


2. having the MK to drop out the stock if the TO says.

3. or banning the hell out of MK but I think that's unlikely to happen.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

LOLOLOL dude its all good man

just take it to PM's brah i agree tho stingers is a little stupid drama boy XD:3

edit-
but MK is beatable dude haha its mad easy

just ban mk already and get it over with.

I think most of the people concerned with the MK ban aren't concerned with directly beating MK themselves so much as they're concerned about the stages banned because of MK, ledgegrab rules etc. implemented because of MK, and having placing lists look like Pound:

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Meta Knight)
3: Ally (Snake)
4: Ksizzle (Meta Knight)
5: Judge (Meta Knight)
5: Shadow (Meta Knight)
7: Havok (Meta Knight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: NinjaLink (Diddy Kong)
9: Lain (Ice Climbers)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario)
9: Seibrik (Meta Knight)

At least, that's my concern.

 

[Pathetiqu3]

This is merely the discussion that precedes that discussion where the brawl community decides it's time to take the game into our hands and actively support certain hacks as the competitive norm. Anything less than that is piss in the ocean.

 

[Allied]

Seriously, just ****ing ban MK.


I'm kinda biased, but I'm not THAT biased.


MK = 5 jumps, glide, side b, nado. They all help planking.

Pit = 3 Jumps, up-b. This barely helps.

Jiggz = Light as hell. Pound. That is all.



All this **** wouldn't be happening with MK gone.

Serin your not even doing a valid arguement and theres tons and tons of countless data to disprove whatever your trying to say because all you did was list some character facts lol

and your right about you being biased this is inui status biased right here XD

*inb4 inui* <33

 

[MysteriousSilver]

This is merely the discussion that precedes that discussion where the brawl community decides it's time to take the game into our hands and actively support certain hacks as the competitive norm. Anything less than that is piss in the ocean.

lolno.

Way too much trouble, and discourages newcomers from the community.

 

[Allied]

we have this options:

1. having scrooging banned, if the guy gets doing that the other player can pause tell TO( while the other is doing it) and reset the match in the same stage, since having infinite replays = hack and if we want smash as a MLG event again then its "profesional " and by that means nothing "illegal or hacked is not allowed." if the MK try it again in the other match , he lose just like that.


2. having the MK to drop out the stock if the TO says.

3. or banning the hell out of MK but I think that's unlikely to happen.

Countless little rules and effects have been tried to be enforced but simply You dont have enough TO power to enforce rules like that and also a little bit of biased opinion comes into effect

When i say i'm a campy kirby i am thats the only way i beat some character MU's and i've accepted that and i also have my snake on clutch

Whats going to stop a TO from saying Me Zoning for 20 seconds isn't ecessive stalling?

Who actually knows? lets be serious because If you watch alot of top player matches That is all it really is most of these players are zoning and trying to find the perfect moment while containing stage control to approach

But heres the problem its alot easier not to approach in brawl making defensive play dominate

I think most of the people concerned with the MK ban aren't concerned with directly beating MK themselves so much as they're concerned about the stages banned because of MK, ledgegrab rules etc. implemented because of MK, and having placing lists look like Pound:



At least, that's my concern.

Well of course MK is Dominate in every stage in the list, thats just how it and pound placing lists weren't even that bad thats 1 national tournament where it was just mostly pure Mks i mean for every tournament like pound i can pull out a national with different mains on top

But in all honestly theres still hope why do you think theres a diddy kong on top it doesn't mean MK just snuffed out the competition it means they are just plain and simply better

I mean have you seen melee the past year AMAZING Advancement of the melee metagame and new stuff STILL being found (ex. master hand glitch 0_o!!!) and that game has been out for so many years now

So if you dont want results like that to happen attend the national with me lets make something like that happen i'm sad i couldn't enter in pound because i was notified i was going like 3 days before it happened X33

This is merely the discussion that precedes that discussion where the brawl community decides it's time to take the game into our hands and actively support certain hacks as the competitive norm. Anything less than that is piss in the ocean.

Why do you think they have all these new hacking gameplay BS because people have tried to take it into their own hands

See Brawl+, Brawl -, Melee 2.0

But this is here for simply brawl if you dont like it that much where you think we as a community need to hack it just play the other hacked versions

They are quite good

as for regular brawl we are here to discuss and figure out how to deal with this for a better, healthier growing brawl metagame

lolno.

Way too much trouble, and discourages newcomers from the community.

This :3

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Well of course MK is Dominate in every stage in the list, thats just how it and pound placing lists weren't even that bad thats 1 national tournament where it was just mostly pure Mks i mean for every tournament like pound i can pull out a national with different mains on top

You don't see an over-centralization issue when 50% of the top 12 players are the same character?

But in all honestly theres still hope why do you think theres a diddy kong on top it doesn't mean MK just snuffed out the competition it means they are just plain and simply better

No disrespect to you personally, but I knew this was coming and I hate this argument. A diddy beat an MK one time. Good for the Diddy. The matchup is almost even, possibly even at a level of play that high. Just because Metaknight can be beat (it's doable!) doesn't mean he isn't a problem.

 

[Kitamerby]

@ the OP...

It also doesn't matter if the timer is 8 or 10 minutes. All extending the timer will do is make tournaments last even longer. Brawl tournaments are already notorious for lasting long past the original curfew with the venues.

Also, you DO realize that by grabbing the ledge, there is no way for a bomb in Sudden Death to ever touch you, right?

Sudden Death is a horrible concept to base a decision on, especially with money on the line. There are really no words to describe just how horrible of an idea it is to ever consider incorporating Sudden Death into a tournament decision if there is money on the line.

 

[Seagull Joe]

They could take the time off all together or just ban MK. The only one abusing the time rule is Mk largely.

 

[MarKO X]

taking the time off means infinite planking.

face it. Sakurai is a genius. You cannot solve this puzzle.

edit: actually, from what i remember, gnw and pikachu were also pretty beast at planking. thing is, planking got "banned" before anyone even learned how to deal with it...

so many flaws with competitive brawl, so little time......

 

[HeroMystic]

Sudden Death is a horrible concept to base a decision on, especially with money on the line. There are really no words to describe just how horrible of an idea it is to ever consider incorporating Sudden Death into a tournament decision if there is money on the line.

Going by this post, that actually supports the point of Anti-Planking.

taking the time off means infinite planking.

face it. Sakurai is a genius. You cannot solve this puzzle.

More like the brawl community won't allow themselves to take the easy way out.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, since Flayl bumped my thread for this one, I guess the least I can do is make an appearance to talk about the items thing.

Trying to be as unbiased as possible, we have about a 50 / 50 chance of adding items to Brawl and having it work, but that's totally dependent on how we approach the situation. Someone brought up ISP's attempt to normalize item spawns through creative stageposition hacking; although this may work for ISP (which is, let's face it, pretty unofficial) or Brawl+/-/BBrawl, it won't work for straight-up SBR tournaments because it involves running Gecko or some other form of homebrew (which, although there are ways to do it without system modification, still presents problems). So, that's not really up for debate.

The stageposition experiment, however, does present us with some very interesting dynamics in this debate, namely that we now know, with complete certainty, how items spawn and (this is the more important one) WHERE they spawn on each stage. You see, part of the problem many traditionalists have with items comes down to randomization of the metagame; item bans / counterpicks and standardized rulesets cut down that randomization by a LOT, but there will always remain some level of it due to the nature of item spawns. Before, however, it was assumed that the game procedurally generated item spawns to favor the losing player in a Sakurai-esque way of evening the fight; we now know that this is entirely false. We now know (thanks to the hackers) that the game randomly spawns items, but only within predetermined areas of the stage.

One of the major arguments against items was the unpredictability of spawns, and while there is still no way to 100% predict a spawn, we CAN know the general area because we, as players, can study and memorize the stageposition data of each stage and know, with 100% certainty, whether a location is protected or not from item spawns.

I would say that if players release a little of their reservations and learn the stages well enough, it could work quite well, but only if the approved item lists were a little conservative (both to counteract inherent flaws in items play and simply because the community hasn't seriously played with items, minus a few major item tournaments, for ~5 years now, maybe more). Items, especially certain ones, really do curtail things like stalling the timer, planking (air or not), infinites, and things like that. It could work... but it'd DEFINITELY take some effort on the community's part.

 

[Allied]

You don't see an over-centralization issue when 50% of the top 12 players are the same character?



No disrespect to you personally, but I knew this was coming and I hate this argument. A diddy beat an MK one time. Good for the Diddy. The matchup is almost even, possibly even at a level of play that high. Just because Metaknight can be beat (it's doable!) doesn't mean he isn't a problem.

Not all check any game for example

Anyone will agree with me there are alot of top level played sagats which is regarded as one of the top and dominating characters in street fighter 4

In melee aren't there alot of spacies mains?

well in brawl there are alot of MKs

Regarding ADHD this is where i stop you, no we are not talking generally anymore ADHD has beaten M2k and Especially Ally ALOT now its not just 1 diddy main what this does give us is prove there are even mutilple characters now that can beat Metaknight and even if the matchup is even who says its a problem, the only reason metaknight is seen as a problem atm is because alot of players pick him up and abuse him but thats a problem in alot of fighting game communities and theres NO way to get rid of this sadly other than ban metaknight but that won't solve the problem and we all know it

What i want to know is now that Pound 4 the top 12 is flooded with MK users doesn't that wanna make anyone else try harder with another character? (inb4 Nope Lulz)

I definitally plan on stepping it up this year and this year brings more opportunity than the previous for more upcoming top players so if you REALLY don't like how the results are lets see you change em instead of standing back watching them take top 12

so come on lets see also you gotta understand even with this many entrants we STILL were missing alot of top player XDDD and we still have a whole another year of metagame developing so i mean don't give up now

It also doesn't matter if the timer is 8 or 10 minutes. All extending the timer will do is make tournaments last even longer. Brawl tournaments are already notorious for lasting long past the original curfew with the venues.

Also, you DO realize that by grabbing the ledge, there is no way for a bomb in Sudden Death to ever touch you, right?

Sudden Death is a horrible concept to base a decision on, especially with money on the line. There are really no words to describe just how horrible of an idea it is to ever consider incorporating Sudden Death into a tournament decision if there is money on the line.


Also, MysteriousSilver, if the Meta Knight didn't even take first, then what's the problem?

Actually It matters ALOT because thats now a extra 2 minutes, 2 REALLY REALLY long minutes where if anyone is definitally stalling, or playing REALLY defensive it makes it that much harder you ask any player that knows how to time people out 8 minutes of avoidng and reading, and playing with the clock and the percentage to your side is PAINSTAKINGLY hard 10 just makes it close to unbearable especially against top players

However you are right about the venue curfew too as well so its a bit of a win lose but then again the timing out stuff only really happens against top players (inb4 wifi mains saying their so good they time people out too)

I doubt honestly people are going to be using the sudden death thing so i'm sure thats nothing to worry about. it really is too messy

<3

 

[Allied]

They could take the time off all together or just ban MK. The only one abusing the time rule is Mk largely.

Not true even i time people out with snake or kirby XD

Well, since Flayl bumped my thread for this one, I guess the least I can do is make an appearance to talk about the items thing.

Trying to be as unbiased as possible, we have about a 50 / 50 chance of adding items to Brawl and having it work, but that's totally dependent on how we approach the situation. Someone brought up ISP's attempt to normalize item spawns through creative stageposition hacking; although this may work for ISP (which is, let's face it, pretty unofficial) or Brawl+/-/BBrawl, it won't work for straight-up SBR tournaments because it involves running Gecko or some other form of homebrew (which, although there are ways to do it without system modification, still presents problems). So, that's not really up for debate.

The stageposition experiment, however, does present us with some very interesting dynamics in this debate, namely that we now know, with complete certainty, how items spawn and (this is the more important one) WHERE they spawn on each stage. You see, part of the problem many traditionalists have with items comes down to randomization of the metagame; item bans / counterpicks and standardized rulesets cut down that randomization by a LOT, but there will always remain some level of it due to the nature of item spawns. Before, however, it was assumed that the game procedurally generated item spawns to favor the losing player in a Sakurai-esque way of evening the fight; we now know that this is entirely false. We now know (thanks to the hackers) that the game randomly spawns items, but only within predetermined areas of the stage.

One of the major arguments against items was the unpredictability of spawns, and while there is still no way to 100% predict a spawn, we CAN know the general area because we, as players, can study and memorize the stageposition data of each stage and know, with 100% certainty, whether a location is protected or not from item spawns.

I would say that if players release a little of their reservations and learn the stages well enough, it could work quite well, but only if the approved item lists were a little conservative (both to counteract inherent flaws in items play and simply because the community hasn't seriously played with items, minus a few major item tournaments, for ~5 years now, maybe more). Items, especially certain ones, really do curtail things like stalling the timer, planking (air or not), infinites, and things like that. It could work... but it'd DEFINITELY take some effort on the community's part.

Jack just check a couple of pages before i mention how potentially MESSY this could get and also you would have to have the many brawl players adapt to this style of change would could potentially ruin the growing metagame of brawl you would have to force this style of gameplay to tournaemnt attends everywhere, TOs, i mean its just too much of a change its like banning half the roster

i'm sure most of the SBR would recognize this too however i do commend you for awesome thinking its just SIMPLY too messy

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So basically you're saying adopt Japans rule set.

 

[RATED]

Countless little rules and effects have been tried to be enforced but simply You dont have enough TO power to enforce rules like that and also a little bit of biased opinion comes into effect

When i say i'm a campy kirby i am thats the only way i beat some character MU's and i've accepted that and i also have my snake on clutch

Whats going to stop a TO from saying Me Zoning for 20 seconds isn't ecessive stalling?

Who actually knows? lets be serious because If you watch alot of top player matches That is all it really is most of these players are zoning and trying to find the perfect moment while containing stage control to approach

But heres the problem its alot easier not to approach in brawl making defensive play dominate



This :3

biased opinion? also I was not trying to enforce rules... and I don't like to be TO lol, I was giving a opinion if people liked it or not, not about me being TO or having TO "power".

 

[Xebenkeck]

@ the OP...

It also doesn't matter if the timer is 8 or 10 minutes. All extending the timer will do is make tournaments last even longer. Brawl tournaments are already notorious for lasting long past the original curfew with the venues.

Also, you DO realize that by grabbing the ledge, there is no way for a bomb in Sudden Death to ever touch you, right?

Sudden Death is a horrible concept to base a decision on, especially with money on the line. There are really no words to describe just how horrible of an idea it is to ever consider incorporating Sudden Death into a tournament decision if there is money on the line.

Not that i disagree with you about this, but i wish to give the other side.
If there was a ten minute timer and sudden death was implimented, what would be the point of stalling and plaking then? You could lose in a sudden death, you could lose lots of money. If a match lasts ten minutes its obvious someone is trying to plank/stall, and if the community ACTUALLY frowns on that, you should be punished for planking/stalling by going to a sudden death and potentially losing or losing money.

Also if i were to suggest a rule it would be you are not aloud to go under the stage at all.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I've timed out people with Tink in friendlies purely by running away and throwing ****.
Just saying.

 

[Allied]

biased opinion? also I was not trying to enforce rules... and I don't like to be TO lol, I was giving a opinion if people liked it or not, not about me being TO or having TO "power".

I wasn't talking about you dude XD lolol this is just all general things i'm thinking about and discussing its fine mah boy

 

[Allied]

Not that i disagree with you about this, but i wish to give the other side.
If there was a ten minute timer and sudden death was implimented, what would be the point of stalling and plaking then? You could lose in a sudden death, you could lose lots of money. If a match lasts ten minutes its obvious someone is trying to plank/stall, and if the community ACTUALLY frowns on that, you should be punished for planking/stalling by going to a sudden death and potentially losing or losing money.

Also if i were to suggest a rule it would be you are not aloud to go under the stage at all.

Because what could happen is if sudden death was enforced people could just wait until then and just hit that 1 guy for an easy dsmash or whatever and get an easy win instead of fighting a real match. Its a Lose - Lose

That rule wouldn't work either because many top players still use that as a legit spacing maneuver to reposition themself when they are under alot of pressure

*Inb4 OH REALLY CUZ I NEVER SEE PEOPLE DO IT* people do it dont worry about it lol XD

I've timed out people with Tink in friendlies purely by running away and throwing ****.
Just saying.

i believe you bro lol XD

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack just check a couple of pages before i mention how potentially MESSY this could get and also you would have to have the many brawl players adapt to this style of change would could potentially ruin the growing metagame of brawl you would have to force this style of gameplay to tournaemnt attends everywhere, TOs, i mean its just too much of a change its like banning half the roster

i'm sure most of the SBR would recognize this too however i do commend you for awesome thinking its just SIMPLY too messy

I'm really not meaning to be rude or anything, so I hope it doesn't come off that way, but ISP started doing its formal research 2 months after Brawl released in the US; I've had plenty of people tell me that it's too messy / just can't be done, and plenty of time to think about the ramifications. That's why I say it has to do with the community's approach to the situation.

Honestly, it's not really THAT big of a change. Responsibly done, items don't change much; Meta doesn't become more God-like, but he isn't totally nerfed. The tier list probably wouldn't change much (although faster characters like Fox, Falcon, or Sonic get buffed, and they have lots of vBrawl problems anyway). In terms of the metagame, most of the top tier cast don't benefit from items any more than they get benefits from their inherent abilities (for instance, most of the top tier projectiles are better and more reliable than items anyway) and the people who gain the most usually are lower down on the list, too (see the above example about speed).

In addition to that, players actually don't have that hard of a time adapting; no one, top pro players and noobs alike, at any ISP events I've ever been to (read: almost all) complained about perceived unfairness or about having to adjust any more than actually learning item-based techs and/or learning about the inherent qualities of any given item (the exact detonation timer on a Gooey Bomb, the total shots of a Super Scope, the range/spacing of Lip's Stick or a fully charged Beam Sword, etc.). Granted, I've been testing the fiddly little b*stards for close to a full year now, so I'm DEFINITELY biased in terms of general knowledge, but most people I've talked to were able to attribute failure in a properly run items tournament to a lack of knowledge about the format (rules, procedures, and general knowledge).

Like I said, it's been so long that most people just don't really know anymore about items enough to accurately judge how easy/difficult the transition would be; after all of my research and first-hand knowledge, I really do think it's 50/50, based on how we handle ourselves. I think in the capable hands of the SBR (assuming they do their research properly ^_-), a workable ruleset could be done, but they, too, have to know what they're doing; trust me, it's not easy making a balanced item ruleset. It took us at ISP almost 6 months.

 

[Kitamerby]

Not that i disagree with you about this, but i wish to give the other side.
If there was a ten minute timer and sudden death was implimented, what would be the point of stalling and plaking then? You could lose in a sudden death, you could lose lots of money. If a match lasts ten minutes its obvious someone is trying to plank/stall, and if the community ACTUALLY frowns on that, you should be punished for planking/stalling by going to a sudden death and potentially losing or losing money.

Also if i were to suggest a rule it would be you are not aloud to go under the stage at all.

You forget though that the core problem with Sudden Death, along with the fact that it's random, is that by simply grabbing the ledge, or with knowledge of item spawn points, it becomes virtually impossible to lose, and the match can potentially last forever. If Sudden death occurs, there is absolutely no excuse for losing unless the battlefield is frigate orpheon, at which point the winner is whoever spawns closest to the left. :\


Also, whenever I think of ISP, I remember that one tournament in which during the grand finals of an ISP doubles tournament, both teams agreed to TURN OFF items for the grand finals because they believed that items were just plain annoying. I think it was CoT4.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm all for food being turned on low. I feel like it could slightly help vs Planking.

 

[Allied]

I'm really not meaning to be rude or anything, so I hope it doesn't come off that way, but ISP started doing its formal research 2 months after Brawl released in the US; I've had plenty of people tell me that it's too messy / just can't be done, and plenty of time to think about the ramifications. That's why I say it has to do with the community's approach to the situation.

Honestly, it's not really THAT big of a change. Responsibly done, items don't change much; Meta doesn't become more God-like, but he isn't totally nerfed. The tier list probably wouldn't change much (although faster characters like Fox, Falcon, or Sonic get buffed, and they have lots of vBrawl problems anyway). In terms of the metagame, most of the top tier cast don't benefit from items any more than they get benefits from their inherent abilities (for instance, most of the top tier projectiles are better and more reliable than items anyway) and the people who gain the most usually are lower down on the list, too (see the above example about speed).

In addition to that, players actually don't have that hard of a time adapting; no one, top pro players and noobs alike, at any ISP events I've ever been to (read: almost all) complained about perceived unfairness or about having to adjust any more than actually learning item-based techs and/or learning about the inherent qualities of any given item (the exact detonation timer on a Gooey Bomb, the total shots of a Super Scope, the range/spacing of Lip's Stick or a fully charged Beam Sword, etc.). Granted, I've been testing the fiddly little b*stards for close to a full year now, so I'm DEFINITELY biased in terms of general knowledge, but most people I've talked to were able to attribute failure in a properly run items tournament to a lack of knowledge about the format (rules, procedures, and general knowledge).

Like I said, it's been so long that most people just don't really know anymore about items enough to accurately judge how easy/difficult the transition would be; after all of my research and first-hand knowledge, I really do think it's 50/50, based on how we handle ourselves. I think in the capable hands of the SBR (assuming they do their research properly ^_-), a workable ruleset could be done, but they, too, have to know what they're doing; trust me, it's not easy making a balanced item ruleset. It took us at ISP almost 6 months.

Oh you didn't insult you big cutie ;]

but when i say it will definitally be some big changes, there will definitally be some big changes like i said even tho you think "Oh it won't be so big people just have to learn this , this and that, and then sbr have to implement into the current ruleset and other stuff"

I mean just think of the voting for each item that will have to be done to ensure its legal that alone will most likey take months

Not only that a memorization of item spawns which will be nuts (kinda cool i think but for most players NUTS!)

Then different character uses for each item allowed (remember there are still character specific item specific glitches=0)

idk dude either way good luck but its too much for my brain to handle but if you can honestly do it man good for you :3

 

[Allied]

I'm all for food being turned on low. I feel like it could slightly help vs Planking.

check the first couple of pages brah i explained why it wouldn't work

 

[MarKO X]

So basically you're saying adopt Japans rule set.

that would be awesome.
then maybe brawl players would know what yomi is.

 

[Allied]

Japan saw this coming faster than we did i would say

 

[BSP]

I mean just think of the voting for each item that will have to be done to ensure its legal that alone will most likey take months

Just how many items would be legalized if they were given a chance? I wouldn't really go for anything besides food.

 

[stingers]

So basically you're saying adopt Japans rule set.

Hah, yeah. It seems like they're doing it right over there. Who wants a match to time out if it means sudden death?

 

[BSP]

But then what happens if it does time out? I think we can all agree that sudden death really isn't a viable option.

Man, this is hard.

 

[Allied]

Just how many items would be legalized if they were given a chance? I wouldn't really go for anything besides food.

I mean who knows dude every item has countless abilties, outcomes, circumstances they would have to go thru and reevauluate EVERY item on the list

You could have some items you would think are bull**** like red shells, and some items that you think are legit banned like food

Because also it would also go by vote

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh you didn't insult you big cutie ;]

but when i say it will definitally be some big changes, there will definitally be some big changes like i said even tho you think "Oh it won't be so big people just have to learn this , this and that, and then sbr have to implement into the current ruleset and other stuff"

I mean just think of the voting for each item that will have to be done to ensure its legal that alone will most likey take months

Not only that a memorization of item spawns which will be nuts (kinda cool i think but for most players NUTS!)

Then different character uses for each item allowed (remember there are still character specific item specific glitches=0)

idk dude either way good luck but its too much for my brain to handle but if you can honestly do it man good for you :3

Whew, good to know I'm not offending.

Personally, having the SBR make an item ruleset isn't really a "big" change for two really important reasons:

1 ) It's not really a big change, just a lengthy one. A properly made item ruleset has two changes at heart: neutral/counterpick/banned lists and item counterpick integration into the already existing counterpick structure. One of these has already been done by ISP. I can, however, see the SBR taking a while to deliberate, though; that's seems like them.

2 ) Most of the work has been done for them. ISP has a retardedly detailed OP with breakdowns of all relevant data (minus exact kill %'s, but I can dig up my old research data/worksheets and type that up). Really, most of the SBR's work would consist of working off of what we've already done. They'd have to deliberate on the data we already provide freely, and then vote.

Not to mention, players really don't have to learn much. The stageposition data shows that item spawns are, for the most part, pretty intuitive and easy to memorize. Particulars of items, like spacing, kill %'s, etc., are also pretty easily learned through practice that the community is already participating in. Finally, the only REALLY important item tech (general, that is) is glide tossing, and mains of characters that spawn their own items (like Peach, Diddy, or the Link's) learn that, anyway. Honestly, EVERYONE should know that. I'm sure that new character-specific item tech will be found, but as of now, not that many exist / are really helpful in tournaments anyway.

I can see how it's daunting, but it's really not. Well, like you said, though... maybe that's just me speaking. I have played WAY too many matches with those things.

EDIT:

I mean who knows dude every item has countless abilties, outcomes, circumstances they would have to go thru and reevauluate EVERY item on the list

You could have some items you would think are bull**** like red shells, and some items that you think are legit banned like food

Because also it would also go by vote

If you want an estimate on how many items there'd be, look at ISP's current ruleset. Then, make that MORE conservative. The SBR might cut up to half of what we already have; they're a VERY conservative bunch.

Also, Brawl doesn't even HAVE Red Shells. Like I said... misinformation.

...Doh. MarKO X beat me.

 

[MarKO X]

brawl don't have no red shells.

 

[Luigi player]

Playing out sudden death benefits the camper.

Imagine I have 0 % and my enemy 50 %, though he keeps camping and running away so I have to approach him... because time's running out. But approaching sucks, that's why I don't want to risk it. Then there's sudden death and that's too random.


I love Brawl. I would ****ing hate it if you'd play with items. It would be too boring to play it.

Just leave Brawl alone... >_> <_<

 

[bobson]

Have you ever played sudden death? Grab a ledge and the bombs can't hit you, and your opponent will have to deal with the bombs unless they too grab a ledge.

You're not going to fix stalling by playing a round where stalling is even more effective.