TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[JOE!]

mewtwo is like 6'7"

that, and he is super-intelligent...

that should be a factor, no?

 

[Nova9000]

mewtwo is like 6'7"

that, and he is super-intelligent...

that should be a factor, no?

Intelligence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Warrior#Ancient_match
Samurai v. Spartan bro.
Intelligence means little when you can't kill the opponent.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The deadliest warrior is in no way shape or form an accurate representation of who would win, I've said this before, they just account for weapons and armor where in reality, tactics is what defines who really wins, and certain combatants have tactical mindsets that hard counter others.


For example, ninja>spartan. Spartans were trained to fight in formation, they're relatively limited as individuals, and have absolutely no experience dealing with foes whose primary weapon is stealth, if it's possible for the ninja to kill him, then the ninja will kill him the majority of the time, taking advantage of his vulnerability to stealth, and failing that, his relative unfamiliarity with 1v1 combat.



Basically, weapons/armor only show how much of an advantage you have prior to incorporating tactics, the only exception being in a case where the opponent cannot kill you.

 

[Nova9000]

The deadliest warrior is in no way shape or form an accurate representation of who would win, I've said this before, they just account for weapons and armor where in reality, tactics is what defines who really wins, and certain combatants have tactical mindsets that hard counter others.


For example, ninja>spartan. Spartans were trained to fight in formation, they're relatively limited as individuals, and have absolutely no experience dealing with foes whose primary weapon is stealth, if it's possible for the ninja to kill him, then the ninja will kill him the majority of the time, taking advantage of his vulnerability to stealth, and failing that, his relative unfamiliarity with 1v1 combat.



Basically, weapons/armor only show how much of an advantage you have prior to incorporating tactics, the only exception being in a case where the opponent cannot kill you.

That may be true, but my point still stands with Mewtwo. Just because he's smart doesn't make him a winner.

 

[JOE!]

Well duh, all Im pointing out is that it will help him stand out from the rest of the animal tier...and maybe even some of the kingdom tier

 

[adumbrodeus]

That may be true, but my point still stands with Mewtwo. Just because he's smart doesn't make him a winner.

Depends on the circumstances, against opponents that don't have overwhelming inherent advantages, it would definitely make things more even.

 

[Nova9000]

Depends on the circumstances, against opponents that don't have overwhelming inherent advantages, it would definitely make things more even.

Mewtwo has no overwhelming advantage against anyone except Kirby/Jiggs. Nothing strikes as really lethal about him without his powers. he only has size on his side. But how does he kill something that is about his size (Yoshi), someting that will harm him physically (Sonic), and something with lethal projectiles (Tink)?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mewtwo has no overwhelming advantage against anyone except Kirby/Jiggs. Nothing strikes as really lethal about him without his powers. he only has size on his side. But how does he kill something that is about his size (Yoshi), someting that will harm him physically (Sonic), and something with lethal projectiles (Tink)?

You're really gonna wanna read what I said again, I was talking about characters that outclass mewtwo in terms of physical advantages (ex. weapons) but not overwhelmingly so.

 

[Nova9000]

You're really gonna wanna read what I said again, I was talking about characters that outclass mewtwo in terms of physical advantages (ex. weapons) but not overwhelmingly so.

But M2 is fail anyway......anyone with weapons can just about take him out....he has poor balance and has to kill with his weight or tail. The inability to be lethal is what I'm basing this off of. His intelligence is a boost for him, but because he has nothing lethal to use and he has poor balance makes him kinda hapazardly smart which is why he relies on his powers more than his body. I'm not saying you're incorrect, but I'm keepig in mind the capabilities of M2.

M2 has them...

 

[adumbrodeus]

But M2 is fail anyway......anyone with weapons can just about take him out....he has poor balance and has to kill with his weight or tail. The inability to be lethal is what I'm basing this off of. His intelligence is a boost for him, but because he has nothing lethal to use and he has poor balance makes him kinda hapazardly smart which is why he relies on his powers more than his body. I'm not saying you're incorrect, but I'm keepig in mind the capabilities of M2.

M2 has them...

Firstly, had to do that because... Doctor Who fan, that hasn't been a Dalek weakness since the early old series.


But, it does bring up a point, limitations can be beaten with resources, and being the most intelligent being on the battlefield means mental resources, which is a substantial advantage.


In terms of physical ability, he seems about human level strength, and the tail is useful, which means he can definitely kill, just needs an opportunity.


So what can he do? Manipulate the environment, lay traps, etc. I know we rarely talk about environmental factors, but it's necessary here because the fight would not take place on FD, perfectly flat locations are incredibly rare, and with the advantage for tactical knowledge mewtwo would be able to trap and kill things that normal would beat him in a straight-out fight.


Obviously, this doesn't apply for thing he cannot kill physically, no help against Bowser or Samus, but for most everyone else... especially against the stupider ones.

 

[Nova9000]

Firstly, had to do that because... Doctor Who fan, that hasn't been a Dalek weakness since the early old series.


But, it does bring up a point, limitations can be beaten with resources, and being the most intelligent being on the battlefield means mental resources, which is a substantial advantage.


In terms of physical ability, he seems about human level strength, and the tail is useful, which means he can definitely kill, just needs an opportunity.


So what can he do? Manipulate the environment, lay traps, etc. I know we rarely talk about environmental factors, but it's necessary here because the fight would not take place on FD, perfectly flat locations are incredibly rare, and with the advantage for tactical knowledge mewtwo would be able to trap and kill things that normal would beat him in a straight-out fight.


Obviously, this doesn't apply for thing he cannot kill physically, no help against Bowser or Samus, but for most everyone else... especially against the stupider ones.

Yea I remember you're a Dr. Who fan lol.

But using the envoirment is kinda iffy in a sense. From what I'm getting, you're saying lay traps in nature and such. If that were the case, then can't DK throw rocks at Roy? Can Yoshi masticate mud and spit it at Luigi? Can't Diddy swing from trees and lurk Lucario? Using the enviorment opens up a ton of variables that really cannot be controlled.

And the things he can kill with his tail and weight I took into account and he won those MUs. But against these 3, I don't really have a concise answer.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yea I remember you're a Dr. Who fan lol.

But using the envoirment is kinda iffy in a sense. From what I'm getting, you're saying lay traps in nature and such. If that were the case, then can't DK throw rocks at Roy? Can Yoshi masticate mud and spit it at Luigi? Can't Diddy swing from trees and lurk Lucario? Using the enviorment opens up a ton of variables that really cannot be controlled.

The thing is, Roy can throw rocks at DK too, Roy, being a human, is more intelligent and therefore better at general manipulation of the environment. DK only has the advantage in environmental manipulation in a true home field, and that's important to note.


That's why we have to amortize the potential environments, to figure out who has an environmental advantage in general, and this is usually due to things like superior intelligence.


I will say however, that things that are common to every environment are fair game... assuming we can prove the character would know to use it, for example, I believe there is only one case on record where gorillas used tools (not sophisticated tools, simple environmental stuff like rocks) aggressively.



I would say that mewtwo would in general have an advantage in manipulating the environment because he is simply that much more intelligent then his opponents.

 

[JOE!]

@environment & tactics:

just going off a bit here, but this is -why- they stick to just weapons and "x" factors on The Deadlies Warrior.

both opponents can use tactics and environment equally, whats to say a spartan couldnt sneak up on a ninja while the ninja is sleeping and kill him with his own ninja stars? (mind = blown)

problem here is that it is way too versatile of a thing to take into account, what is preventing the other party from using the environment in the way you described the 1st one did? (barring obvious stuff like DK being able to like uproot a small tree to use as a club or w/e) Or, as I said above, even if one character is more likley too, what prevents the 1st guy from assassination?

So what we are left with is the measureable things: weapons, abilities and design. Environment is assumed "neutral", with no envirnmental advantages or disadvantages to either party. It is also assumed that their tactics are to simply fight to the death once they encounter each other, as it is deadliest brawler, not deadliest Assassin, etc, etc.

 

[Nova9000]

@environment & tactics:

just going off a bit here, but this is -why- they stick to just weapons and "x" factors on The Deadlies Warrior.

both opponents can use tactics and environment equally, whats to say a spartan couldnt sneak up on a ninja while the ninja is sleeping and kill him with his own ninja stars? (mind = blown)

problem here is that it is way too versatile of a thing to take into account, what is preventing the other party from using the environment in the way you described the 1st one did? (barring obvious stuff like DK being able to like uproot a small tree to use as a club or w/e) Or, as I said above, even if one character is more likley too, what prevents the 1st guy from assassination?

So what we are left with is the measureable things: weapons, abilities and design. Environment is assumed "neutral", with no envirnmental advantages or disadvantages to either party. It is also assumed that their tactics are to simply fight to the death once they encounter each other, as it is deadliest brawler, not deadliest Assassin, etc, etc.

This.

10This.

And IMO M2 v. Sonic and Yoshi are draws and Tink wins.

 

[REL38]

This.

10This.

And IMO M2 v. Sonic and Yoshi are draws and Tink wins.

Mewtwo has higher mobility, power and probably intelligence

Sonic has trouble even standing with no form of attack other than his less than lethal lolspikes

Yoshi can't move all that well and has little to attack with


I don't see how he'd draw, by any stretch

 

[adumbrodeus]

@environment & tactics:

just going off a bit here, but this is -why- they stick to just weapons and "x" factors on The Deadlies Warrior.

And that makes it totally inaccurate and useless, we've gone more into depth and are giving the characters the service they need, otherwise we might as well just call this thread, "pick random characters out of a hat" thread.

both opponents can use tactics and environment equally, whats to say a spartan couldnt sneak up on a ninja while the ninja is sleeping and kill him with his own ninja stars? (mind = blown)

Because he has no training in the area, firstly he needs to drop the armor, and still 99/100 times he'll wake the ninja up (who were trained to be light sleepers) and a normal battle would start (aka, the ninja would attempt to escape and use environmental tactics).


So, no. Not at all, different characters cannot use the enviroment equally, it's entirely dependent on their training, natural abilities, and intelligence.

problem here is that it is way too versatile of a thing to take into account, what is preventing the other party from using the environment in the way you described the 1st one did? (barring obvious stuff like DK being able to like uproot a small tree to use as a club or w/e) Or, as I said above, even if one character is more likley too, what prevents the 1st guy from assassination?

Again, intelligence. DK isn't gonna uproot a tree because, barring one case in all of history, gorillas don't use tools as weapons.


What we can do is amortize their overall ability to manipulate the environment and compare it across characters. The character that loses in environmental manipulation has to be a certain amount more effective at killing the winner then the reverse to account for the disadvantage.

So what we are left with is the measureable things: weapons, abilities and design. Environment is assumed "neutral", with no envirnmental advantages or disadvantages to either party.

As I pointed out before, impossible, which is why I always amortize the environments and average the results.

It is also assumed that their tactics are to simply fight to the death once they encounter each other, as it is deadliest brawler, not deadliest Assassin, etc, etc.

Different groups have different ways of "fighting to the death", if you take the specialty of one character as the basic way, the end result is your list is incredibly inaccurate.

 

[JOE!]

Adum, the example was that a spartan could "assassinate" a ninja, not the specifics of the actual act, but moreso the idea behind they both *could* do it, thus rendering it moot. Hell, Ganon *could* go and burn down Link's house as he slept, thus making him win in Link vs Ganon, right?

and what training is needed to go in and kill a dude as they sleep? You just go in quietly, then *slice/etc*. Even if the ninja were light sleepers, they sleep with all their gear equipped to then fight off the guy? Then still have to get out of (bed), get a weapon/etc/etc all while just waking up and with a guy trying to kill them.


This is DK we are talking about, he's smarter than the average bear gorilla, I mean, he doesnt use a clip-on like those shmucks. On the subject, would it not be an even fight for Roy as well (environment wise) as he could use the trees to hide from/corner DK if need be?

And yes, it is impossible to have a perfectly "neutral" battlefield, but what I mean is that it is neutral as possible, meaning out of 1000 outcomes the environment should provide like 1-2 deaths due to randomness if anything.


and dude, will you be queit with the semantics? "Different groups have different ways of fighting to the death"

...

what does that mean? Im pretty sure fightign to the death = fight till one of you dies..its kinda black and white there. What i was trying to push across was that when they "meet" in our battles, they fight until one is defeated, they dont run off and set traps, get help, wait till the next day, etc. they fight then and there as if their life depended on it (which it does).

Not to say those other strategies dont come into play in those situations, but they are too weird to try and calculate: Why cant Ganon set somethign up while link is off planting a bomb? or what if ganon decides to let link run off until another day? The list goes on and on of what crap can happen.

Hell, we could just call it a day and say Snake calls up Colonel each time and gets an air-strike in or some crap.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Intelligence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Warrior#Ancient_match
Samurai v. Spartan bro.
Intelligence means little when you can't kill the opponent.

What are you implying?

This is not a sarcastic remark I genuinely want to know.

Spartans were trained to fight in formation,

And?

they're relatively limited as individuals,

This is untrue.

then the ninja will kill him the majority of the time, taking advantage of his vulnerability to stealth,

This is meaningless. A ninja's experience might allow him to elude armed guards and make it into a guarded location but Stealth is not a switch on "Now you can't see me" toy like the Active Camo in Metal Gear Solid or anything. No matter how good you are or are not it is MASSIVELY an environmental factor. Could a Ninja consistently use Stealth to his advantage? No it would be situational, if the Spartan was asleep or not expecting a fight or at his home. In a battle? Well generally not.

and failing that, his relative unfamiliarity with 1v1 combat.

Please don't just make things up.

Spartans have around 4 years of 2 hours a day 1v1 combat training against other Spartans as part of their training and the other 9 years of their training would have seen regular sparring and 1v1 combat in at least a once a week timescale. IF the Spartan was actually taking the Ninja on in a fight he would hold all the advantages.

ninja stars?

What is a ninja star? They only existed in the movies. Ninjas didn't throw stars.

and still 99/100 times he'll wake the ninja up (who were trained to be light sleepers) and a normal battle would start (aka, the ninja would attempt to escape and use environmental tactics).

This is stupid. Trained to be light sleepers as in if someone raised an alert a group of ninjas would wake up fast and alert and not groggily roll out of their beds. This does NOT in any way mean they would leap to their feet the minute someone walked within 30 paces of them. Anyone not trying to sneak in the style they use in Scooby Doo could easily walk up and gut a sleeping ninja they would just be able to react quickly if an armed force charged their camp is all.

JOE is entirely right a Spartan could walk up behind a distracted sleeping or simply unaware (OMG NO AMAZING REFLEXESSSSSSS you say? stfu No. Ninjas could easily be caught unawares if simply not expecting battle or violence they are not gods simply trained, if a ninja was at home watching a Friends Marathon he'd be as oblivious as any other.) and kill him. Assassination is one thing but no ninja could ever use stealth in the kind of fights The Deadliest Warrior runs. Ninjas would lose your ******** fanboyism changes nothing.

 

[UncleSam]

What is a ninja star? They only existed in the movies. Ninjas didn't throw stars.

he meant shuriken.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

he meant shuriken.

Shuriken was just a blanket term for a disjointed oddball collection of whatever random sharp stuff that one ninja personally had to throw at pursuers to slow and debilitate them. Tips of broken farming tools, needles, shards of metal etc. There is no one thing that can be labelled a "Shuriken"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum, the example was that a spartan could "assassinate" a ninja, not the specifics of the actual act, but moreso the idea behind they both *could* do it, thus rendering it moot. Hell, Ganon *could* go and burn down Link's house as he slept, thus making him win in Link vs Ganon, right?

Not at all, possibility does not equal reliability, it's possible that I'm gonna be inspired to write the next version of windows and do it tomorrow... however there are people with far better skills in that area then me, people who actually write operating systems, so while the possibility exists that I will... do you really think that I'd be able to produce it more reliably then somebody with skills in the area?


Same principal here, they can try, but individuals with less skill in the area will be far less inventive in what they can do and will be far less efficient in doing it. While it's always possible they'll pull it out... one match out of a thousand, we deal with the winners on average.

and what training is needed to go in and kill a dude as they sleep? You just go in quietly, then *slice/etc*.

I seriously facepalmed IRL here. No, that's totally and 100% incorrect.


Walking silently is a SKILL, when you're trained in it, it's quite easy to notice that most people have very loud footsteps. Did you notice how a ton of people scrape the soles of their shoes against the ground while walking? I do. This includes not just how to actually walk in a way that doesn't make noise, but also walk in a way that allows you to notice and avoid things that crack loudly.

While some people might be light sleepers naturally, in general light sleeping is a skill, you don't randomly develop it.


Camouflaging the place where you sleep is a skill, if you attempt it randomly, you will do it poorly.


Silent takedowns are a skill, you gotta know where to slice, otherwise you'll deliver a wound that will allow the opponent to alert their allies, or worse yet, survive.


There's a lot more to this, but rest assured, if a ninja were attempting to kill a spartan in his sleep, he'd be over 100 times more likely to succeed then the reverse because a spartan lacks the skillset and quite frankly the inclination.

Even if the ninja were light sleepers, they sleep with all their gear equipped to then fight off the guy? Then still have to get out of (bed), get a weapon/etc/etc all while just waking up and with a guy trying to kill them.

They'd certainly be at a disadvantage... but if you play it smart you can pretend to still be asleep and kill them while they're trying to set up a clean kill on you due to the element of surprise.

This is DK we are talking about, he's smarter than the average bear gorilla, I mean, he doesnt use a clip-on like those shmucks. On the subject, would it not be an even fight for Roy as well (environment wise) as he could use the trees to hide from/corner DK if need be?

Only really works in the jungle, he only has intrinsic knowledge of that environment, any other environment would throw him off and have him hiding in plain sight because it's all instinctive.

And yes, it is impossible to have a perfectly "neutral" battlefield, but what I mean is that it is neutral as possible, meaning out of 1000 outcomes the environment should provide like 1-2 deaths due to randomness if anything.

There's no environment that will not provide tools for more then that without fundamentally advantaging one side or the other in almost all MUs.

and dude, will you be queit with the semantics? "Different groups have different ways of fighting to the death"

...

what does that mean? Im pretty sure fightign to the death = fight till one of you dies..its kinda black and white there. What i was trying to push across was that when they "meet" in our battles, they fight until one is defeated, they dont run off and set traps, get help, wait till the next day, etc. they fight then and there as if their life depended on it (which it does).

Not to say those other strategies dont come into play in those situations, but they are too weird to try and calculate: Why cant Ganon set somethign up while link is off planting a bomb? or what if ganon decides to let link run off until another day? The list goes on and on of what crap can happen.

Hell, we could just call it a day and say Snake calls up Colonel each time and gets an air-strike in or some crap.

Well my image of fighting to the death is obviously far broader then yours, see my image of "fight to the death" is basically the "ninja vs. spartan" episode, there are strategic retreats, they attempt to use terrain to their advantage, they DISENGAGE. And honestly, that's all you need to set up traps and use the environment against your opponent.


If we keep it as a flat "this character has to be able to beat the other by this much inherently to account for superior tactical understanding and terrain manipulation ability", then it fits into the framework quite well.

What are you implying?

This is not a sarcastic remark I genuinely want to know.



And?



This is untrue.



Please don't just make things up.

Spartans have around 4 years of 2 hours a day 1v1 combat training against other Spartans as part of their training and the other 9 years of their training would have seen regular sparring and 1v1 combat in at least a once a week timescale. IF the Spartan was actually taking the Ninja on in a fight he would hold all the advantages.

RELATIVELY.


Key phrase there, ALL the fighters of the ancient world had extreme amounts of training. Do you honestly expect somebody who's primary training regime was based around fighting in formation to be as inherently effective at 1v1 fighting as somebody with the same amount of total training, but was only trained in fighting as an individual.

Not really.

This is meaningless. A ninja's experience might allow him to elude armed guards and make it into a guarded location but Stealth is not a switch on "Now you can't see me" toy like the Active Camo in Metal Gear Solid or anything. No matter how good you are or are not it is MASSIVELY an environmental factor. Could a Ninja consistently use Stealth to his advantage? No it would be situational, if the Spartan was asleep or not expecting a fight or at his home. In a battle? Well generally not.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

While stealth is NOT something you just switch on, it is a tool to begin an engagement with an advantage and a tool to disengage.

Obviously you've never played manhunt or any sort of stealth game, so let me break it down for you.


You run away, find an area that you can hide in and vanish. Bushes will do, trees, buildings, whatever, but if you're good at it, you can have people searching for an hour in a 6 feet by 6 feet approximately section of bush (yes, that was oddly specific). From there, you wait until you can regain the advantage and approach quietly.


That's how you use stealth, and a spartan lacks the training to work against that.

What is a ninja star? They only existed in the movies. Ninjas didn't throw stars.

Catch-all term for a variety of weapons.

This is stupid. Trained to be light sleepers as in if someone raised an alert a group of ninjas would wake up fast and alert and not groggily roll out of their beds. This does NOT in any way mean they would leap to their feet the minute someone walked within 30 paces of them. Anyone not trying to sneak in the style they use in Scooby Doo could easily walk up and gut a sleeping ninja they would just be able to react quickly if an armed force charged their camp is all.

JOE is entirely right a Spartan could walk up behind a distracted sleeping or simply unaware (OMG NO AMAZING REFLEXESSSSSSS you say? stfu No. Ninjas could easily be caught unawares if simply not expecting battle or violence they are not gods simply trained, if a ninja was at home watching a Friends Marathon he'd be as oblivious as any other.) and kill him. Assassination is one thing but no ninja could ever use stealth in the kind of fights The Deadliest Warrior runs. Ninjas would lose your ******** fanboyism changes nothing.

That's actually as much a modern skill as an ancient one, and it's not ninja-specific. You're at a disadvantage when you're asleep, that much is obvious, but when you're dealing with somebody untrained... from personal experience, I get woken up by footsteps nearby my bedroom all the time.


As far as distracted in general, when you receive awareness training you notice things a great deal more easily even when distracted, which people mostly are.


Most of this stuff isn't even going into ninja-specific skills, I'd expect a modern navy seal to have a lot of these abilities, as well as a lot of other modern special forces. Spartans were some of the most feared warriors of the ancient world as a group... as an individual they were decidedly less so. Still extremely powerful, but definitely a great deal more beatable.

 

[UncleSam]

Shuriken was just a blanket term for a disjointed oddball collection of whatever random sharp stuff that one ninja personally had to throw at pursuers to slow and debilitate them. Tips of broken farming tools, needles, shards of metal etc. There is no one thing that can be labelled a "Shuriken"

the main types of shuriken are 'bo' and 'hira' shuriken.
you're talking about Bo, ninja stars are Hira

 

[Xiahou Dun]

RELATIVELY.


Key phrase there, ALL the fighters of the ancient world had extreme amounts of training. Do you honestly expect somebody who's primary training regime was based around fighting in formation to be as inherently effective at 1v1 fighting as somebody with the same amount of total training, but was only trained in fighting as an individual.

Let me put this simply.

Spartans would have had more training fighting as an individual then a Ninja would have had total training.

Obviously Spartans were far from their 300 depiction but they quite simply went through more and longer training then almost any other military force that ever existed.

Not really.

Obviously you've never played manhunt or any sort of stealth game, so let me break it down for you.


You run away, find an area that you can hide in and vanish. Bushes will do, trees, buildings, whatever, but if you're good at it, you can have people searching for an hour in a 6 feet by 6 feet approximately section of bush (yes, that was oddly specific). From there, you wait until you can regain the advantage and approach quietly.

Really, Manhunt? That's your example? The Spartan is going to turn around and face the wall and count to 50?

If you're prepared to give a proper example then I will discuss it, but until then...

As a curiosity what kind of combat area and terms are you imagining here? A room, a building, a street, a forest, a city, a spaceship? Would they be aware that there is someone who is out to kill them beforehand, would they know their appearance etc? Only with the influence of some of these factors does stealth become some kind of tangible advantage.

That's actually as much a modern skill as an ancient one, and it's not ninja-specific. You're at a disadvantage when you're asleep, that much is obvious, but when you're dealing with somebody untrained... from personal experience, I get woken up by footsteps nearby my bedroom all the time.

If you INSIST that Ninjas would spring from their beds the minute a Spartan came to stab them and then somehow win, as being awake is far from a victory...*Throws Spear from long distance*

Even Bo and Hira were later inventions.

 

[dahighii]

Alright, going through and quoting everyone would really be a chore, not that I'm lazy but I just figure I can get my point across without doing so. Plus it takes up less space

So on the topic of surroundings etc., I REEEEAAALLY don't want to start allowing that as a factor in battle. If we do this then the only way to properly assess a matchup WOULD BE TO ASSESS EVERY TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT THERE IS. We could say that Marth will kill Diddy in a desert but Diddy would pwn Marth in a jungle. (This is just an example, don't try to argue this because it only serves to exemplify my point. If you disagree with this then just keep thinking until you find a matchup this makes sense in. Got one? K great ) The point is, up until now we've been just pitting the fighters against one another, and that's the way it should stay. No talk of trees, stones, nature or the like. (Unless said item is a weapon of the character. Then it can stay.)

Also, why are we talking about ninja men and spartans? I get this is an analogy for intellect vs. brute strength or what have you, but honestly I don't feel this applies. In the Ultimate Fighter they disengage? This is because IT'S A TV SHOW. They can't just put a single fight on screen and expect people to watch it. (Only anime can do that ) I really don't feel like strategic retreats should be part of our concern. From what I've seen, up until now the battles have been fought in what's basically a Colosseum. (Correct me if I'm wrong, it's very possible.) Not even a Colosseum with sand to throw in the opponents eye, just a three dimensional Final Destination. This is how it should be. If we want to make a BEST AT MANHUNT BRAWLER thread at some point, then sure that's no problem, but I really feel like that isn't in the aims of this thread.

I think I covered most of my objections. I'll edit or just post again later if I missed something.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Let me put this simply.

Spartans would have had more training fighting as an individual then a Ninja would have had total training.

Obviously Spartans were far from their 300 depiction but they quite simply went through more and longer training then almost any other military force that ever existed.

Not really.

Vs. modern military standards, yes. A lot of their advantage came from their organization.

2 hours of combat training a day strikes me as... well laughable compared to other fighting forces of the ancient world. Obviously this is only their 1v1 training, but the point is, it's far from enough to give them the edge over somebody who their primary training was 1 v 1 from a similar time period.

Really, Manhunt? That's your example? The Spartan is going to turn around and face the wall and count to 50?

If you're prepared to give a proper example then I will discuss it, but until then...

What I was explaining was that your comments display laughable inexperience with proper application of stealth.

When you're attempting to sneak, and a hostile makes visual contact with you, generally you run until you can break visual contact and attempt to re-establish cover.


Aka, guy sees you, you run till guy can't see you anymore, you get into a bush/under a bench with an obscured back/get in a hole/get into a cupboard/etc and be very quiet.

In most environments there's too many potential hiding areas to hide for them to cover in a reasonable amount of time.


Well, or you never get seen in the first place.

Always disguises and acting too.

As a curiosity what kind of combat area and terms are you imagining here? A room, a building, a street, a forest, a city, a spaceship?

And here we were talking about environment for so long, this is how the conversation came up in the first place.

Amortize it, though we're definitely talking about far more space then an individual room or building, but in almost any environment there's plenty of places to hide.


Oh, and no futuristic environments, Earth circa 2010.

Would they be aware that there is someone who is out to kill them beforehand, would they know their appearance etc? Only with the influence of some of these factors does stealth become some kind of tangible advantage.

Yes and yes, it's been established time and time again in this thread that they know who they're fighting and what the opponent looks like. Unless they're not intelligent enough to understand that of course.

If you INSIST that Ninjas would spring from their beds the minute a Spartan came to stab them and then somehow win, as being awake is far from a victory...*Throws Spear from long distance*

And that's definitely gonna hit in an area that's immediately fatal when the guy's in his lean-to/hole under a fur tree/cave/random other camouflaged hiding spot.


You realize this was mainly to illustrate how difference in skill-sets means something, right?

Also, why are we talking about ninja men and spartans? I get this is an analogy for intellect vs. brute strength or what have you, but honestly I don't feel this applies.

It was to show that different skillsets show a difference in how skilled different people are in utilizing the environment.

In the Ultimate Fighter they disengage? This is because IT'S A TV SHOW. They can't just put a single fight on screen and expect people to watch it. (Only anime can do that ) I really don't feel like strategic retreats should be part of our concern.

Firstly, it's the opposite, a more broken-up fight makes people less interested in general.


Secondly... that's a basic part of battle, we're not talking about full-on, "I leave an attempt to assassinate you 5 days later", it's just one protracted fight with a rather large areas where people can temporarily disengage, but the fight itself should not take longer then say... an hour.

From what I've seen, up until now the battles have been fought in what's basically a Colosseum. (Correct me if I'm wrong, it's very possible.)

Not really, environment got ignored period, basically it's a big space of "nothing", unless I brought it up that a "big space of nothing" ridiculously advantages one side or another, in which case, a neutral got developed.

 

[UncleSam]

stuff

maybe you don't but it has been a factor in cases.

other stuff

they're just using it as an example?

 

[Yonder]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"

And @ Yonder, I asked people for their input for weapons, and everyone has practically ignored Luigi. Seems like he has the vacuum only. [/COLOR]

How ridiculous -_-.

Whatever though. Luigi would waste alot of characters though given more of his arsenal of items. Fireballs, hammers, various suits, etc....

I mean, the items the Mario Bros use could defeat most characters, they can practically accomplish anything with them!

 

[IsmaR]

Read the OP and tell how many items from the Mario Bros. series are realistic. kthnx

 

[dahighii]

You realize this was mainly to illustrate how difference in skill-sets means something, right?

Of course. The point of me saying that I don't think it applies is that I don't believe those different skill sets aren't of any meaning here. And I'll show you why, right after this!

It was to show that different skillsets show a difference in how skilled different people are in utilizing the environment.

Not really, environment got ignored period, basically it's a big space of "nothing", unless I brought it up that a "big space of nothing" ridiculously advantages one side or another, in which case, a neutral got developed.

And this is what I'm talking about. As you just said, the battles have taken place in a big space of "nothing" - which is exactly what I meant by a 3D Final Destination. There's nothing there, it's just ground, extending in all directions. This is the environment the thread was created with; I take it to simply be unsaid. ALL battles up to this point have been fought in this space, and now you wish to change that? Do you want to render all past verdicts null and void because the environment wasn't taken into account? If environment wasn't discussed in those matchups previously, then absoulutely none of the results so far mean anything. This is why I say that all of this talk of ninjas and spartans doesn't apply - because the battles should continue as they always were, that being in this space of nothing. This is how the thread has been and how it should be if it is to retain its original purpose. If JOE! says otherwise, then alright, it's his thread, he makes the rules, but otherwise this just makes the most sense.

Firstly, it's the opposite, a more broken-up fight makes people less interested in general.

This is really just a minor point, but I'm bored One fight for an entire hour? In real-time? I mentioned anime because characters take forever to charge attacks, give dialogue, etc., but I don't think I could watch a single, real-time battle for an hour. Maybe that's just me and a short attention span for physical violence, but I doubt there's going to be much innovation in a single battle for an hour straight. I haven't seen this show, so maybe they deploy all sorts of battle twists and whatnot, and perhaps they could do this for an entire hour. Even then I'm not sure if it would make good tv. Bah, opinions, everyone's got one :suess:

 

[adumbrodeus]

And this is what I'm talking about. As you just said, the battles have taken place in a big space of "nothing" - which is exactly what I meant by a 3D Final Destination. There's nothing there, it's just ground, extending in all directions. This is the environment the thread was created with; I take it to simply be unsaid. ALL battles up to this point have been fought in this space, and now you wish to change that? Do you want to render all past verdicts null and void because the environment wasn't taken into account? If environment wasn't discussed in those matchups previously, then absoulutely none of the results so far mean anything. This is why I say that all of this talk of ninjas and spartans doesn't apply - because the battles should continue as they always were, that being in this space of nothing. This is how the thread has been and how it should be if it is to retain its original purpose. If JOE! says otherwise, then alright, it's his thread, he makes the rules, but otherwise this just makes the most sense.

Not quite, it was more like... "arbitrary space", it could have features, but utilization of any of those features wasn't banned.

But this wasn't uniform, there were a number of battles from all points in the thread where I pointed out "hey, the environment is gonna matter a lot here, we gotta account for it".


And we render previous verdicts void all the time.

This is really just a minor point, but I'm bored One fight for an entire hour? In real-time? I mentioned anime because characters take forever to charge attacks, give dialogue, etc., but I don't think I could watch a single, real-time battle for an hour. Maybe that's just me and a short attention span for physical violence, but I doubt there's going to be much innovation in a single battle for an hour straight. I haven't seen this show, so maybe they deploy all sorts of battle twists and whatnot, and perhaps they could do this for an entire hour. Even then I'm not sure if it would make good tv. Bah, opinions, everyone's got one :suess:

I think you misunderstand the format, they do research, weapons demonstrations, etc.

Then, at the end of it all, they have like a 5 minutes illustrative battle where the guy they calculated as the winner wins.

 

[dahighii]

I think you misunderstand the format, they do research, weapons demonstrations, etc.

Then, at the end of it all, they have like a 5 minutes illustrative battle where the guy they calculated as the winner wins.

Ah, that's sounds much more interesting than I originally thought it was. Maybe I'll watch it sometime, if I can find the time.

Not quite, it was more like... "arbitrary space", it could have features, but utilization of any of those features wasn't banned.

But this wasn't uniform, there were a number of battles from all points in the thread where I pointed out "hey, the environment is gonna matter a lot here, we gotta account for it".


And we render previous verdicts void all the time.

It wasn't so much the rendering "a verdict" void part that bothered me, but rather rendering "all verdicts" void that I took issue with. And alright, I suppose these are fair guidelines, but does this mean that a character that needs a certain environment to win would just cause a draw for the matchup? For instance, (to use my earlier example) if Marth ***** in the desert and Diddy rules the forest, is it called as a draw?

 

[adumbrodeus]

It wasn't so much the rendering "a verdict" void part that bothered me, but rather rendering "all verdicts" void that I took issue with. And alright, I suppose these are fair guidelines, but does this mean that a character that needs a certain environment to win would just cause a draw for the matchup? For instance, (to use my earlier example) if Marth ***** in the desert and Diddy rules the forest, is it called as a draw?

Average it, if Marth wins in all places except Jungle and deep forest, and Diddy wins in those two places, marth wins.


If they win in the same number of environments, whoever wins by a larger margin on their good environments and loses by a smaller margin on their lose environments wins.

 

[JOE!]

hmn, perhaps a better way to go about the environments would be similar to how they did it in Animal Face-off:

where *could* these characters meet?

for example, Roy vs DK could have been on the outskirts of the forest near Roy's castle or such, giving both characters familiar grounds (well, kinda for DK, but a buncha trees is good enough replica for the jungle for our purposes)

we actually did this for Wolf vs Snake:

it was an abandoned military base, where we kinda made the story of Snake looking for some files/etc, while Wolf touched down outside the base to look for ammo/etc.

 

[dahighii]

Average it, if Marth wins in all places except Jungle and deep forest, and Diddy wins in those two places, marth wins.


If they win in the same number of environments, whoever wins by a larger margin on their good environments and loses by a smaller margin on their lose environments wins.

Plausible. Alright, I suppose environments can be in play then, as you were

 

[Nova9000]

Mewtwo has higher mobility, power and probably intelligence

Sonic has trouble even standing with no form of attack other than his less than lethal lolspikes

Yoshi can't move all that well and has little to attack with


I don't see how he'd draw, by any stretch

All three fail by real standsrds, but exactly how can M2 kill Yoshi and Sonic?
That is, without getting killed/fatally injured himself?

What are you implying?

This is not a sarcastic remark I genuinely want to know.

What I mean is that M2 has no way to kill reliably. Link has an arsenal. Wolf has guns and claws. Marth has a sword. M2 has....a tail....and brainpower....so he's really going to be a huge factor if he fought any of these three. What I was implying is that even though M2 is brilliant, that won't help him in a fight with most of the characters here.

How ridiculous -_-.

Whatever though. Luigi would waste alot of characters though given more of his arsenal of items. Fireballs, hammers, various suits, etc....

I mean, the items the Mario Bros use could defeat most characters, they can practically accomplish anything with them!

IsmaR covered it already, but rather than get mad at the guy who's TRYING to save Luigi, come up with something that can be used in place of his hammer.

Stuff

*notes how much discussion took place when he was here all day*

Spoiler

US was right...even if it was the other him...

The thing is, if you feel like the environment is a huge factor, then you should have made that known in every round. IIRC, we stopped doing that in like Rd. 1. And now you want to resurrect that idea now? Maybe in Rd. 6 we can go back to doing so but that opens up other variables in every MU that we've done. The thread is on what the capabilities of the character can be. That's the main variable we wish to have uncontrolled. By what you're suggesting, you open up a second variable that has to be taken into account. And you want to control the variables in experiments, not allow more than one.

Also, saying that they disengage may work for human wars, but we're taking other things into consideration. For example, Zelda v. Diddy; Diddy can run all he wants, but Zelda has no need to chase him because of her arrows. Or take Fox v. Lucas; Lucas can try to run but railguns **** before he can even finish with that idea. This is why we do FD, 8 ins, no items, Fox only. You open up too many things with your idea of disengaging.

And going by your logic here, :uzi: because Snake has the stealth to do so. Plus he has...

in stealth and camouflage so he will never be noticed. In other words, stealth doesn't decide what happens. I hope you're seeing what I mean by the sarcasm. Case in point: adding a new variable which hasn't been implemented since Rd. 1 in Rd. 5 is a bad idea.

hmn, perhaps a better way to go about the environments would be similar to how they did it in Animal Face-off:

where *could* these characters meet?

for example, Roy vs DK could have been on the outskirts of the forest near Roy's castle or such, giving both characters familiar grounds (well, kinda for DK, but a buncha trees is good enough replica for the jungle for our purposes)

we actually did this for Wolf vs Snake:

it was an abandoned military base, where we kinda made the story of Snake looking for some files/etc, while Wolf touched down outside the base to look for ammo/etc.

I disagree. because then you have people saying the fight takes place at. Using Roy v. DK, one side will imply Roy follows DK into the jungle, and another side says DK goes to the castle to confront Roy. Neutral enviorments encompass neither having a side where there is a distinct winning side.

Not to mention, we have to make stories for these scenarios?

That takes away from what we've been doing this entire time with the thread. Instead of a wisecrack from you saying why Link beats Yoshi, we have this:

Link encounters Yoshi while searching the outer depths of Hyrule. Yoshi sees Navi and does Link a favor by swallowing it up. Link gets pissed and slices Yoshi's throat. Yoshi dies and Link stuffs the Yoshi meat in a bottle.

See what I'm getting at? We debate matches, not try to make likely scenarios for them to fight each other. Plus, how likely that some of these characters would meet? How would Sonic meet Olimar and pick a fight with him? Or Kirby and Ganondorf? And it becomes this @ 9:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUSSXyrT4Bc&feature=related
I say if you're serious about this, then we implement it in Rd. 6. But I don't see why you need to change up in the 9th inning.


Maybe I did go crazy with the posters...but I haven't posted any in a while...I apologize in advance but no ill intended by them...

 

[Xiahou Dun]

What I mean is that M2 has no way to kill reliably. Link has an arsenal. Wolf has guns and claws. Marth has a sword. M2 has....a tail....and brainpower....so he's really going to be a huge factor if he fought any of these three. What I was implying is that even though M2 is brilliant, that won't help him in a fight with most of the characters here.

No what I meant was.

What are you implying about Samurai and Spartans when you say look at the Samurai v Spartan fight...

 

[REL38]

@Nova

Mewtwo's body actually works in assaulting

His whip-like tail can easily serve as a force to be reckoned with. Bashing Sonic's head repeatively as to Yoshi with their lackluster mobility

His kangaroo-like drop kick which has been suggested before could easily be aimed towards Yoshi's head, breaking his neck/skull

Honestly, Sonic has no redeeming attributes to even pose a threat
Noodle arms, inability to even stand, only defences being keratin quils that aren't even lethal as explained once before


Yoshi lacks any real brute force



And to the Luigi stuff, WHY does Luigi get the short end of the straw JUST to make WEAPONRY DIFFFERENT?

I thought we were to take these characters to their fullest realistic abilities?
Where is the realism in limiting weaponry?
Why isn't Luigi given hammers while Mario can get bombs?
Why is Luigi restricted hammers?

Sounds o' so selective and brings about the unnecessary reasoning of "to make them different"

 

[JOE!]

I disagree. because then you have people saying the fight takes place at. Using Roy v. DK, one side will imply Roy follows DK into the jungle, and another side says DK goes to the castle to confront Roy. Neutral enviorments encompass neither having a side where there is a distinct winning side.

Not to mention, we have to make stories for these scenarios?

That takes away from what we've been doing this entire time with the thread. Instead of a wisecrack from you saying why Link beats Yoshi, we have this:

Link encounters Yoshi while searching the outer depths of Hyrule. Yoshi sees Navi and does Link a favor by swallowing it up. Link gets pissed and slices Yoshi's throat. Yoshi dies and Link stuffs the Yoshi meat in a bottle.

See what I'm getting at? We debate matches, not try to make likely scenarios for them to fight each other. Plus, how likely that some of these characters would meet? How would Sonic meet Olimar and pick a fight with him? Or Kirby and Ganondorf? And it becomes this @ 9:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUSSXyrT4Bc&feature=related
I say if you're serious about this, then we implement it in Rd. 6. But I don't see why you need to change up in the 9th inning.

i never said we need to make stories (athough that one for link and yoshi made me lol)

however, its as close to neutrality as we can get if both sides have advantageous and disadvantageous stuff at their side, and we can determine how it'd go down based on that,

otherwise we'll never hear the end of Adum's bithcing

 

[HotWings]

Just felt like reminding all of you...... new episode of Deadliest Warrior is coming on tonight!!!

I havent missed a new episode in like.. ever >_<

 

[Nova9000]

No what I meant was.

What are you implying about Samurai and Spartans when you say look at the Samurai v Spartan fight...

It was in reference to the MU on TV. Samurais said they trained the mind, but the Spartan won. It really wasn't proper evidence to support my claim, but I just watched that episode before I posted so yea...

@Nova

Mewtwo's body actually works in assaulting

His whip-like tail can easily serve as a force to be reckoned with. Bashing Sonic's head repeatively as to Yoshi with their lackluster mobility

His kangaroo-like drop kick which has been suggested before could easily be aimed towards Yoshi's head, breaking his neck/skull

Honestly, Sonic has no redeeming attributes to even pose a threat
Noodle arms, inability to even stand, only defences being keratin quils that aren't even lethal as explained once before


Yoshi lacks any real brute force

And as I've said before, M2 has kangaroo like legs but he lacks the build to perform kanga moves. Matterfact, let me dig in the archives of MUs and find some quotes of this discussed already:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9029532&postcount=15485
Post I made addressing M2 when he faced Zard.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9106622&postcount=15672
Post JOE! made about why MK beat Kirby....and why M2 is being discussed now against these three.
Now Zard lost that MU since you proved how bad his bite really is and he has too big of a weak spot to do anything about it. However, Yoshi has way more powerful jaws and Sonic can still stick him until he bleeds to neck. Consider the OHKO in the back of M2's neck and the fact that he can't really kill them and I see a draw.

M2 bashing his skull could work to Sonic, but it would harm M2 as well. And Yoshi's head is bigger than M2's tail so Yoshi could bite his tail. The drop kick thing can work on the both of them though.

Sonics's quills being non-lethal? Why was that determined?

And to the Luigi stuff, WHY does Luigi get the short end of the straw JUST to make WEAPONRY DIFFFERENT?

I thought we were to take these characters to their fullest realistic abilities?
Where is the realism in limiting weaponry?
Why isn't Luigi given hammers while Mario can get bombs?
Why is Luigi restricted hammers?

Sounds o' so selective and brings about the unnecessary reasoning of "to make them different"

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/sq...hoto_1232135198hall_of_fame_mario.preview.jpg

Pick one...

i never said we need to make stories (athough that one for link and yoshi made me lol)

however, its as close to neutrality as we can get if both sides have advantageous and disadvantageous stuff at their side, and we can determine how it'd go down based on that,

otherwise we'll never hear the end of Adum's bithcing

And this is what I agree with. keep it "FD" type and keep it neutral from there.

And since you're in charge, everything you do will have some backlash and people who complain. You can't please everyone, so do what you do best and stick to your guns.