Technicalities of Stale Move Negation

[Praxis]

I've got a number of questions on Stale Move Negation; if someone could answer, it'd be most appreciated, and if it is not known, it might be something worth investigating by SBR.

As a Peach main, my greatest problem is landing that final kill. Peach's only low % kill move is difficult to sweetspot and thus not consistently reliable (if you land it, it's changing the match around). Her aerials have decent kill power, however, as all of Peach's aerials autocancel, they are used heavily in the course of the match for combos, and thus the ones you can land easily don't retain kill power.

My understanding is that there is a queue of the last 9 moves you used. Once 9 attacks have been used (and they only count if they hit a player hitbox, NOT a shield), each new attack bumps an old attack off of the queue, "refreshing" the move bumped off.

I've been thinking lately that controlling my stale moves might be the key to improving on her greatest flaw. As such, I'm going to ask everything on my mind, even ones I feel I already know the answer to.


1: Does hitting stage objects (Green Greens blocks, Luigi's Mansion's pillars) refresh your stale moves? (Yes, right?)

2: Do projectiles (Falco's lasers, Fox's lasers, Pit's arrows) refresh stale moves?

3: Do thrown projectiles (bananas, turnips) refresh stale moves?

4: Combining 1-3; do projectiles against stage objects refresh moves? Can I spam turnips on Green Greens and except my fair to become less stale as turnips hit blocks?

5: How do multi-hit moves effect stale moves? If my dair touches an object but doesn't start or finish on the object, does it count as a dair in the stale moves queue?

6: How do jab combos effect stale moves? If I jab-jab my opponent, is that two jabs in the queue? If I only perform the first hit of the jab, does it count? If I pick Ike and repeatedly perform the first hit of his jab combo, is it multiple hits?

7: Do Specials refresh stale moves? I.E., if I stall in the air on Castle Seige by Peach bombering against a statue over and over, am I adding Peach Bomber to my stale moves queue? (and does MK's up-B go stale?)

8: Do moves that change under different circumstances stale universally; i.e., if I hit someone with a golf club using Peach's fsmash, will the frying pan fsmash (which does different damage and knockback along a different trajectory with a different hitbox) also be staled?

Stale moves and grabs!
9: Does pummeling the opponent during a grab count as separate attacks on the stale moves queue? Does it count at all?

10: Do throws stale separately (aka, if I always bthrow, will my fthrow remain fresh)?

11: Operating under the assumption that hits to shield do not go stale- do hits to POWERSHIELD go stale? I've noticed that attacks like Peach bomber interact with a Powershield as if they had impacted the character, rather than passing through like they do with a normal shield.



Sorry for the crapload of questions. I'd like to find ways to refresh my moves either utilizing the stage or utilizing grabs so as to keep my aerial kill moves fresh without being conservative early in the match.

Thanks much!

 

[Sosuke]

1. Yeah
2. Yes.
3. Only if you throw and HIT someone with the item.
4. Pretty sure they do, but this is something I haven't looked into much.
5. Its pretty much if you hit them, it counts. But any, and all of the hits count as one move on the queue.
6. Jabs count as one I believe. Starting a new jab might make it count as another move. So the Ike thing probably refreshes multiple moves (I'm not too sure on this).
7. Yes.
8. No idea. >_<
9. Yes
10. Pretty sure they're separate.
11. idk. >_>

 

[CR4SH]

I
1: Yes

2: Yes

3: Yes

4: Yes

5: Most multi-hits are one move, some count individually. 3 hit jab combos count as 3 moves, MK's F-tilt counts as 3. A good basic rule of thumb is that you get one for every time you're required to press a button.

6: see above

7: Yes, yes.

8: I don't know for sure, I have a fairly strong guess that they all stale together.

Stale moves and grabs!
9:Separate moves

10: yes

11: Hits only count on the stale list if they interact with a hitbox. I.E. powershielding doesn't matter.



Sorry for the crapload of questions. I'd like to find ways to refresh my moves either utilizing the stage or utilizing grabs so as to keep my aerial kill moves fresh without being conservative early in the match.

Thanks much!

'
No problem, hope I didn't just restate anyone, but I know this stuff pretty well.

Edit: On shields and objects. Objects actually have something like a stamina meter. The statues on seige, the pillars on mansion etc, will die at the same % damage every time (the stuff on brinstar is an exception because its regenerates). I'm guessing that you need to impart a % damage to something to enter the stale list. And shields don't work like that.

I haven't tested green greens blocks specifically, but I would guess they work just like any other object. Brinstar, CS, LM, YI shyguys, SV balloon. I know those for certain.

Also, if someone catches your turnip, and throws it back at you, that's their stale move, not yours.

 

[MRTW113]

I think, for #8, it does stale, in the same way G&W's judgement 9 would be weaker if you used a Judgement 5 or 7 before.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've got a number of questions on Stale Move Negation; if someone could answer, it'd be most appreciated, and if it is not known, it might be something worth investigating by SBR.

As a Peach main, my greatest problem is landing that final kill. Peach's only low % kill move is difficult to sweetspot and thus not consistently reliable (if you land it, it's changing the match around). Her aerials have decent kill power, however, as all of Peach's aerials autocancel, they are used heavily in the course of the match for combos, and thus the ones you can land easily don't retain kill power.

My understanding is that there is a queue of the last 9 moves you used. Once 9 attacks have been used (and they only count if they hit a player hitbox, NOT a shield), each new attack bumps an old attack off of the queue, "refreshing" the move bumped off.

I've been thinking lately that controlling my stale moves might be the key to improving on her greatest flaw. As such, I'm going to ask everything on my mind, even ones I feel I already know the answer to.


1: Does hitting stage objects (Green Greens blocks, Luigi's Mansion's pillars) refresh your stale moves? (Yes, right?)

Yes. Do note that hitting multiple stage objects at once (like taking out several blocks on Green Greens) only counts as one in the queue. Also, it's not a stage object, but hitting R.O.B.'s gyro on the ground works too.

2: Do projectiles (Falco's lasers, Fox's lasers, Pit's arrows) refresh stale moves?

yes, if they hit

3: Do thrown projectiles (bananas, turnips) refresh stale moves?

yes, and they even refresh if they weren't originally yours (like you can use Diddy's bananas to refresh your own stale moves)

4: Combining 1-3; do projectiles against stage objects refresh moves? Can I spam turnips on Green Greens and except my fair to become less stale as turnips hit blocks?

yes, and it's a good strategy

5: How do multi-hit moves effect stale moves? If my dair touches an object but doesn't start or finish on the object, does it count as a dair in the stale moves queue?

If a move hits anything, it enters the queue once. It doesn't matter how many things or how few things it hits or how many hits of multi-hit moves hit. Hitting with just the first hit of your down aerial is the same as hitting with every hit and hitting both Ice Climbers and a stage object with every hit.

6: How do jab combos effect stale moves? If I jab-jab my opponent, is that two jabs in the queue? If I only perform the first hit of the jab, does it count? If I pick Ike and repeatedly perform the first hit of his jab combo, is it multiple hits?

Jab combos should count as just one in the queue though maybe someone has a really slow jab combo that counts as two. The general rule is if multiple attacks are "too fast" together, they count as one. Several characters have grab pummels that, at max speed, count as one (Peach's is not "too fast" so don't bother slowing down pummels ever). I know Ness's down tilt is fast enough as well to be able to count as one with several hits; just spamming a fast tilt is a really bad strategy for refreshing stale moves. The exact specifics of just how fast is "too fast" or whether some moves are excluded from that mechanic hasn't been explored well though.

7: Do Specials refresh stale moves? I.E., if I stall in the air on Castle Seige by Peach bombering against a statue over and over, am I adding Peach Bomber to my stale moves queue? (and does MK's up-B go stale?)

yes

8: Do moves that change under different circumstances stale universally; i.e., if I hit someone with a golf club using Peach's fsmash, will the frying pan fsmash (which does different damage and knockback along a different trajectory with a different hitbox) also be staled?

I'm pretty sure they all count as the same, but I'm not completely sure. I seem to recall testing that Mr. Game & Watch's Judgment Hammers were all the same move for stale moves, but I didn't really record any data and could easily just be misremembering.

Stale moves and grabs!
9: Does pummeling the opponent during a grab count as separate attacks on the stale moves queue? Does it count at all?

yes, it's a separate attack. With Peach, pummeling a bunch is an excellent strategy to refresh stale moves.

10: Do throws stale separately (aka, if I always bthrow, will my fthrow remain fresh)?

yes, and it's a big deal for several characters who would otherwise always use the same throw (Squirtle and Lucas off the top of my head)

11: Operating under the assumption that hits to shield do not go stale- do hits to POWERSHIELD go stale? I've noticed that attacks like Peach bomber interact with a Powershield as if they had impacted the character, rather than passing through like they do with a normal shield.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't count, but I don't think any specific research on this point has been done. The Peach Bomber thing is actually odd and interesting.

Sorry for the crapload of questions. I'd like to find ways to refresh my moves either utilizing the stage or utilizing grabs so as to keep my aerial kill moves fresh without being conservative early in the match.

Thanks much!

Anyway, one last thing you might want to know even though it doesn't affect Peach directly; certain odd moves don't affect stale moves at all. They don't go stale, and they don't refresh other moves. Those are Luigi's down taunt, all the tether attacks (Link, Toon Link, Samus), and Zero Suit Samus's neutral aerial (why that last one I have no idea). Also, for some funky reason, Sonic's forward special and down special count as the same move for stale moves; I don't know of any other cases like that...

 

[CR4SH]

Goofy inconsistency. Ampharos, where did you get your info on jab combos and stale moves? In my testing, luigi's jab combo counts as 3 moves, and stale independently. Which is what got me curious about MK ftilt.

 

[Praxis]

Yeah, that part's interesting- different results from each of you.
I really hope Peach's counts separately xD

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think Luigi's jab combo is actually slower than a series of three Ness down tilts. Luigi might just be slow enough in general for his jab combo to count as three. You can also delay jab combos in general (there's a window after jab 1 where you can jab 2, not just one frame) which might matter; it deserves testing as well as the "too fast" mechanic in general.

 

[Natch]

I'm not the SBR, but I still know what I'm talking about.

I've got a number of questions on Stale Move Negation; if someone could answer, it'd be most appreciated, and if it is not known, it might be something worth investigating by SBR.

As a Peach main, my greatest problem is landing that final kill. Peach's only low % kill move is difficult to sweetspot and thus not consistently reliable (if you land it, it's changing the match around). Her aerials have decent kill power, however, as all of Peach's aerials autocancel, they are used heavily in the course of the match for combos, and thus the ones you can land easily don't retain kill power.

My understanding is that there is a queue of the last 9 moves you used. Once 9 attacks have been used (and they only count if they hit a player hitbox, NOT a shield), each new attack bumps an old attack off of the queue, "refreshing" the move bumped off.

I've been thinking lately that controlling my stale moves might be the key to improving on her greatest flaw. As such, I'm going to ask everything on my mind, even ones I feel I already know the answer to.


1: Does hitting stage objects (Green Greens blocks, Luigi's Mansion's pillars) refresh your stale moves? (Yes, right?)

Yes.

2: Do projectiles (Falco's lasers, Fox's lasers, Pit's arrows) refresh stale moves?

Yes.

3: Do thrown projectiles (bananas, turnips) refresh stale moves?

Yes. To my knowledge, they have to be items that you "created." Throwing someone else's item will not refresh your stale moves.

4: Combining 1-3; do projectiles against stage objects refresh moves? Can I spam turnips on Green Greens and except my fair to become less stale as turnips hit blocks?

Yes.

5: How do multi-hit moves effect stale moves? If my dair touches an object but doesn't start or finish on the object, does it count as a dair in the stale moves queue?

As long as Dair connects, it will put itself in the queue. It doesn't matter how many hits you score with Dair-it will be entered into the queue as a single item either way.

6: How do jab combos effect stale moves? If I jab-jab my opponent, is that two jabs in the queue? If I only perform the first hit of the jab, does it count? If I pick Ike and repeatedly perform the first hit of his jab combo, is it multiple hits?

If you're doing a multi-hit move that requires you press buttons to iniate the next attack, each button press counts as one move. If you do the Jab combo, it counts as 2 items. This is because the knockback and damage of the 1st and 2nd hits are not the same-they need to be counted seperately in order for the stale move "equation" to function correct. If they counted it as one move-disregarding if you landed the 2nd hit or not-then it would be an absolute nightmare to code for that.

7: Do Specials refresh stale moves? I.E., if I stall in the air on Castle Seige by Peach bombering against a statue over and over, am I adding Peach Bomber to my stale moves queue? (and does MK's up-B go stale?)

Special attacks are put into the same queue as normal attacks. If you pressed a button and hit something, it goes into the queue. Grab pummels go into the queue, throws go into the queue, etc.

8: Do moves that change under different circumstances stale universally; i.e., if I hit someone with a golf club using Peach's fsmash, will the frying pan fsmash (which does different damage and knockback along a different trajectory with a different hitbox) also be staled?

This one I'm unsure of. It doesn't have the same conditions that multi-hit moves like Jab do, so either one would be doable. I'm more inclined to believe that they'd be counted seperately.

Stale moves and grabs!
9: Does pummeling the opponent during a grab count as separate attacks on the stale moves queue? Does it count at all?

Yes. It has been said that if you pummel too fast, it won't register in the stale move queue, despite doing damage. Given the speed of Peach's pummel, that's probably a non-issue for you.[/b]

10: Do throws stale separately (aka, if I always bthrow, will my fthrow remain fresh)?

Dear god, yes. Out of all the characters I play, I've been using Lucas the longest. His Grab game is good, and his Dthrow kills starting at 130. If using other throws staled all throws, I'd never be able to kill with Dthrow. Using Fthrow will stale Fthrow, and nothing BUT Fthrow.

11: Operating under the assumption that hits to shield do not go stale- do hits to POWERSHIELD go stale? I've noticed that attacks like Peach bomber interact with a Powershield as if they had impacted the character, rather than passing through like they do with a normal shield.

[/b]I'm not sure. However, the only thing Powershielding does is remove shield lag and allow you to drop your shield instantly. Besides that, the mechanics are the same-it prevents damage dealt to you. I'm inclined to say yes here.[/b]



Sorry for the crapload of questions. I'd like to find ways to refresh my moves either utilizing the stage or utilizing grabs so as to keep my aerial kill moves fresh without being conservative early in the match.

Thanks much!

Responses in bold. Hope this helps. Keeping kill moves fresh is something that every character besides Snake has to worry about-I don't care what you say about spamming Utilt/Ftilt/whatever, there is always SOMETHING that's not staled. Outside of Snake's throws, Cypher, 'Nades, and Usmash, every single move Snake has will kill by 150 fresh.

But yeah, Peach doesn't have that luxery. At low percents, you can go for those combos. I don't know how much damage Peach does per hit, but try and change what moves you'll use

 

[Praxis]

. Keeping kill moves fresh is something that every character besides Snake has to worry about-I don't care what you say about spamming Utilt/Ftilt/whatever, there is always SOMETHING that's not staled.

*cough*Game & Watch *cough*

They don't have to worry about stale moves.

I've had a Game & Watche survive to 180% because my kill moves were stale and then kill me at 80%...in a tournament final, on the last stock.

T_T

Maybe I'll do some testing with Peach's jabs and stale moves later...that seems to be the most inconsistent point here. I know I can grab release G&W to jab combo, but he's on the tip and can DI away from the first hit so I can't jab-grab him.

 

[Samuelson]

I thought that hitting Luigi's Mansions pillar doesn't refresh moves and that it was just a rumor :O

I'm gonna test this right now actually...

Alright cool, just tested this. Hitting the pillars and blocks does make your moves stale. This is good info :D

 

[Aeropup]

There was a thread on the marth boards a while back about dancing blade, and IIRC it said that each of the four hits counts as a separate item on the stale move list.

So would it be correct to say that multiple hitting attacks that require button input for each hit (true combos) list each hit separately?

 

[ph00tbag]

So would it be correct to say that multiple hitting attacks that require button input for each hit (true combos) list each hit separately?

I think this is the case for every natural combo.

 

[cman]

Some Marth stuff might add some more confusion. Each of Marth's dancing blades counts as a separate hit, so marth's moves are almost always refreshed (except usually fair and sometimes down tilt). There are also up/neutral/down versions of dancing blade hits. Using the up hits also stales down hits and neutral hits, and vice versa. I would asume that Peach's fsmash is the same.

 

[Kitamerby]

While we're at it, does hitting a PROJECTILE of someone else's refresh stale moves?

For example, if I'm Marth, and I swat away Lucario's Aura Sphere with my Fair, are my moves refreshed? If not, what about Snake's grenades? Pikmin? (Super)Missiles? Nikita? Do projectiles with hurtboxes allow you to refresh stale moves?

Also, if I recall correctly, anything that counts as a true combo in Brawl's training mode counts as one move in the cheque. Also, moves with universal inputs (Peach's Fsmash, Lucario's Aura Sphere charge and shot) apparently DO all count as one section. If I hit someone with a tick of Luc's Aura sphere, then stop, and then hit them later with another tick, then shoot the AS, it will be counted as having decayed twice. Sorta sad.

 

[ColinJF]

The combo thing is only if it's the same move, and the training mode combo counter does not tell you whether it's a combo. I have no idea what the combo meter is supposed to do, but it doesn't tell you whether something is a combo. Here's a simple test to see that. Grab somebody at high damage in training mode, pummel once, wait a few seconds, and then pummel again. In the training mode, this counts as a two hit combo, but it's obviously not hitting them out of hitstun, and this will count as two moves in the stale move queue in versus mode.

 

[J4pu]

9. Depends how fast the pummels repeat. If you pummel too fast it only counts as 1.
(this was the general decision a month or two ago, not sure if it changed)

due to this I am going to make a theory that if you hit somebody into hitstun, and then hit them again with the SAME move while they are still in that hitstun, it only counts as 1 attack in the stale move queue. This could explain how multihit attacks work as well.

simple testing that could be done would be to SDI out of pikachu's Dsmash and then go back into it, and see if it counted as 2 hits.

 

[Deoxys]

I thought that hitting Luigi's Mansions pillar doesn't refresh moves and that it was just a rumor :O

I'm gonna test this right now actually...

Alright cool, just tested this. Hitting the pillars and blocks does make your moves stale. This is good info :D

Indeed. I'm skeptical about the blocks on Yoshi's Island (Melee) counting.

Goofy inconsistency. Ampharos, where did you get your info on jab combos and stale moves? In my testing, luigi's jab combo counts as 3 moves, and stale independently. Which is what got me curious about MK ftilt.

I remember reading that MK's ftilt always counted as 3 hits (when not Mach Ftilt)... Who knows for sure if it counts as 3 or not at maximum speed?

I guess I can try to test these things next week if no one tells me....

Anyway, one last thing you might want to know even though it doesn't affect Peach directly; certain odd moves don't affect stale moves at all. They don't go stale, and they don't refresh other moves. Those are Luigi's down taunt, all the tether attacks (Link, Toon Link, Samus), and Zero Suit Samus's neutral aerial (why that last one I have no idea). Also, for some funky reason, Sonic's forward special and down special count as the same move for stale moves; I don't know of any other cases like that...

Wow, ZSS's nair? That was already one of my favorite ZSS moves!

Don't forget Snake's stuff!

 

[Nicole]

Ok, so this might be a dumb question, but moves go stale ONLY if you hit someone with them, right? Like, if I taunt by doing 3 Dsmashes or something (I don't, but theoretically), Dsmash won't start getting stale, because I haven't actually hit anyone/anything?

 

[Crystanium]

I thought that hitting Luigi's Mansions pillar doesn't refresh moves and that it was just a rumor :O

I'm gonna test this right now actually...

Alright cool, just tested this. Hitting the pillars and blocks does make your moves stale. This is good info :D

Yeah, this is old stuff. In a thread I made a while back regarding stale move negation,

I had heard a while back that if you were to hit things like the walls on Luigi's Mansion, or if you were to hit the floating balloon that passed by in Smashville, your moves would be restored. In other words, they would no longer be staled. While I was in the process of doing this, I also decided to see whether or not stale moves would occur in different ways like if your opponent shielded your attack, or if you missed. So here is what I have.

What Causes Staling:

• The walls at Luigi's Mansion.
• The bricks and question blocks at the Mushroomy Kingdom.
• The karts on Mario Circuit.
• The button and stone walls on Rumble Falls.
• Hitting King Bulblin at the Bridge of Eldin.

What Doesn't Cause Staling:

• Shielded and missed attacks.
• Attacks that clank.
• Projectile that are reflected and/or absorbed by Ness and/or Lucas' PSI Magnet, Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic, Pit's Mirror Shield, Fox, Falco's and Wolf's Reflector, Mario's Cape, Ness' Bat and Lucas' Stick.
• Non-projectile attacks that are reflected by Pit's Mirror Shield or Mario's Cape.
• Attacks that are countered by Marth and Ike's Counter or Lucario's Double Team, or even Peach's Toad, projectile or not.
• Attacking your opponent while he or she has invincibility frames after respawning.

Attacks that Do Not Stale

• Z-air (Samus, Link, and Toon Link)
• Zero Suit Samus' n-air.
• Donkey Kong's Cargo Throw.
• Luigi's d-taunt.
• Mario's F.L.U.D.D.
• Squirtle's Water Gun (charged).

I never got around to finishing this. Still, this is all good stuff to know. When I was using Zero Suit Samus, my brother would shield when I used Forward+B. He didn't perfect shield, so his shield was being reduced each hit, and since the attack was being shielded, it took no staling, which meant that my brother had to either roll away or spot-dodge the attack if he didn't want a broken shield. I'm going to test out some other stuff.