The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Hitzel]

MvC. I think "crouch-cancelled dash" is a fine descriptor of what's happening, but I guess I'm just a simple man in a complex world.

Well if you look at Tekken's Wavedashing, it's actually a similar thing going on there; going back and forth between a ducking animation and a dashing animation.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I had so many things I wanted to say...

Then I realized it was utterly pointless. I'll be preaching to the choir and no amount of logic, begging for compromise or applying to emotion will ever change the minds of those set in their ways.

In a way, I kind of hope Sm4sh doesn't have any new advanced techs. I want it to be JUST LIKE BRAWL.

That way if I ever decide to host a For-Fun public tournament at say my college, I won't have to worry about getting my ass stomped by someone with twitch reflexes, too much free time and an obsession with getting better and better at a party fighter bordering on the insane. They'll be too busy here circle-jerking it about how much the game sucks and how there's not enough combos and advanced techniques. That'll just leave the people I actually WANT to play with. :\

 

[Saikyoshi]

@Orge_Deity_Link: You do realize how inflammatory that is. Most of us aren't like that, you know. We do know how to hold back when we're just having fun.

Your attitude is highly exclusionary. And that's the opposite of what Smash is about.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

@Orge_Deity_Link: You do realize how inflammatory that is. Most of us aren't like that, you know. We do know how to hold back when we're just having fun.

Your attitude is highly exclusionary. And that's the opposite of what Smash is about.

Then I've had some BAD experiences in the past involving supposedly casual tournaments then.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Then I've had some BAD experiences in the past involving supposedly casual tournaments then.

Like a friend of mine said once a long time ago: if you don't know how to hold back, then you're really not very skilled. Don't bother with those guys.

(Granted, it was a role play board and said friend was being Goku, talking to a villain/antihero OC who said he wouldn't be able to fight without killing his opponent. But it still applies here.)

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Well then don't let the bad experiences color your perception, that won't benefit anyone. :/ It sucks you've had bad experiences at casual tournaments, but trust me when I say the competitive scene isn't all bad. And if you want to hose a casual tournament go for it, maybe see if a local game shop will let you host it and then make sure you emphasize it's casual, or modified, or whatever you determine. Heck sometimes you can just get some friends around, have everyone pitch in a few bucks for a prize pool and just have an impromptu tournament that way.

 

[Hitzel]

In a way, I kind of hope Sm4sh doesn't have any new advanced techs. I want it to be JUST LIKE BRAWL.

That way if I ever decide to host a For-Fun public tournament at say my college, I won't have to worry about getting my *** stomped by someone with twitch reflexes, too much free time and an obsession with getting better and better at a party fighter bordering on the insane. They'll be too busy here circle-jerking it about how much the game sucks and how there's not enough combos and advanced techniques. That'll just leave the people I actually WANT to play with. :\

Saying "I want to win every time at the expense of everyone else" is very selfish.

Also, Nerd Rule #1:

"If someone is better than me at videogames, they have no life. If someone is worse than me at videogames, they're a noob."

Don't contribute to nerd rule #1.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

So is nerd rule number 2 "No Game, No Life?" Because that was an awesome anime recently.

In all seriousness though, don't let a few jerks paint people of the whole, that's how crappy generalizations are born.

 

[Second Power]

In a way, I kind of hope Sm4sh doesn't have any new advanced techs. I want it to be JUST LIKE BRAWL.

Brawl does have advanced techs. DACUS, RAR, B-Reversal, (insane) AGT, Gatling, etc. I believe your complaining because you have played with someone good at Melee but never anyone good at Brawl. At least with a good Melee player, the game is short. Playing a good Brawl player is slow and painful.

 

[Empyrean]

AGT

Just wanted to point out that Brawl has glide-tossing, not AGT; the latter is a PM-exclusive tech. But yeah, Brawl does have an insane amount of tech too, and if we were to get into character-specific tech, then yeah.

 

[Dracometeor]

I had so many things I wanted to say...

Then I realized it was utterly pointless. I'll be preaching to the choir and no amount of logic, begging for compromise or applying to emotion will ever change the minds of those set in their ways.

In a way, I kind of hope Sm4sh doesn't have any new advanced techs. I want it to be JUST LIKE BRAWL.

That way if I ever decide to host a For-Fun public tournament at say my college, I won't have to worry about getting my *** stomped by someone with twitch reflexes, too much free time and an obsession with getting better and better at a party fighter bordering on the insane. They'll be too busy here circle-jerking it about how much the game sucks and how there's not enough combos and advanced techniques. That'll just leave the people I actually WANT to play with. :\

Lol I mean... it's a tournament. If people are paying money to enter then they are going to do WHATEVER it takes to win. It's like if you told Lebron James to only make half court shots and walk because it's a casual basketball tournament that he paid to enter....
Even if you aren't paying though people would still play their best because ALOT of COMPETITIVE people like to be THE BEST. It's why competition exists.

Why have tournaments if you don't want people to try? Just go play with friends.

 

[mimgrim]

Just wanted to point out that Brawl has glide-tossing, not AGT; the latter is a PM-exclusive tech. But yeah, Brawl does have an insane amount of tech too, and if we were to get into character-specific tech, then yeah.

It's not PM exclusive. Melee has AGT as well lol.

 

[Empyrean]

It's not PM exclusive. Melee has AGT as well lol.

Lol, didn't know that. Did a quick search and you are right, although only a few characters benefit from it in Melee.

 

[Ragna22]

Honestly I don't think they're needed, yeah they were cool techniques that made a bunch of characters better but I don't think they're necessary, you look at something like Project M and while it brings back most, if not all the Melee techniques, I feel like the best thing about Project M is the physics and the amount of hitstun is to follow up with different attacks.

If Brawl was as fast as PM, had the same physics and hitstun, didn't have tripping but still have the multi air dodge, then I personally feel like Brawl would be the best in the series, nothing against wave dashing but I feel like there's more freedom in being able to defend yourself as mush as you need to in the air especially in Smash, I mean ya know, fighting games like MVC and Blazblue allow you to block in mid-air so why not have similar defenses in Smash? And while some might say that being able to dodge multiple times in the air is too safe, the faster physics should do just fine balancing that out, or hell, increase the recovery frames on each air dodge, that should balance itself just fine.

 

[Renji64]

Brawl is the type of game you don't even need to practice for.

 

[ZanZero]

Tech skills are an amazing component to any competitive fighting game, they deepen the metagame and put a noticeable border in between a newcomer and a seasoned vet.
But on the other hand that is the exact reason I feel they are unnecessary.
In the melee competitive scene there is too deep a chasm of tech skill.
It is a seemingly insurmountable task to go from finding your first main to playing at large scale tourneys, hell even small local tourneys, and that is something I don't think smash needs.
Wavedashing and SHFFLs are helpful, and I'm all for deepening the metagame...
But I'd rather we have deep competitive gameplay without exploits or carpel tunnel inducing hand movements and combos.
I don't want Brawl. I don't want Melee. I want a whole new Smash Bros experience with Sm4sh.
It's fine the way it is, minus a couple small snags that I'm sure will be ironed out by the release of the Wii U version.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Tech skills [...] put a noticeable border in between a newcomer and a seasoned vet.

And that is why Sakurai is never bringing them back.

 

[ZanZero]

And that is why Sakurai is never bringing them back.

Good riddance.
I've played smash since 64, and can whoop all my friends with each and every character...
But my hands are too shaky for crazy tech skills. I can washdash and shffl, and do a couple character specific techs, but the first few times I went to local tourneys I always got my ass kicked by this one dude and his insane Falco skills.
He was doing all sorts of techs that back then I had never seen before.
I spent the next few months practicing everyday, but could never get my hands to do the large amount of intense techs in Melee.
So I'm personally glad they're gone. Smash 4 looks like something my shaky hands can handle. If they just cut a bit of that landing lag off, we'll be golden.

Then again my ol' buddy Bowser doesn't appear to have much landing lag on his aerials and seems all together amazing even in these early builds, so I'm set.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Lol I mean... it's a tournament. If people are paying money to enter then they are going to do WHATEVER it takes to win. It's like if you told Lebron James to only make half court shots and walk because it's a casual basketball tournament that he paid to enter....
Even if you aren't paying though people would still play their best because ALOT of COMPETITIVE people like to be THE BEST. It's why competition exists.

Why have tournaments if you don't want people to try? Just go play with friends.

Who said anything about paying? I'm talking public tournaments. No money, just people playing the game for the sake of playing the game. And I'm glad I'm forced to hide away and play only with people I personally know or get thrashed. Or I can dedicate great portions of my life to a GAME and make it cease to be fun anymore. People too often only care about winning and that's the only way they can have any fun, so they take games like Smash and overcomplicate them just to get a little more leg up over everyone else. They do not want anyone who hasn't put in the insane amount of time they've put into it to be anywhere near them, and if the game doesn't have features that take months to master, the game is "terrible," doesn't have "depth," or "options." Oh and defending tech barriers just makes you sound elitist. You are literally saying you want something in the game to stop people from being anywhere on your level unless they too spend stupid amounts of time practicing.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: On SmashBoards, the word "easy" is taboo.

@ Second Power : I know Brawl has Advanced Techniques. I was being facetious because people complain how it doesn't. Or they complain about how the ATs aren't the AT's they want.

 

[Second Power]

@ Second Power : I know Brawl has Advanced Techniques. I was being facetious because people complain how it doesn't. Or they complain about how the ATs aren't the AT's they want.

O...kay? The context makes it sorta difficult to get. To make another point: You can just as easily be crushed by a good opponent in Brawl as you can in Melee. Or Mario Kart. Or... basketball. Or... Monopoly. Tech skills being necessary doesn't change that.

And I agree, the game shouldn't require twitchy hands to play. However, Sakurai has to recognize what the techs are being used for an include alternatives/buff the 'normal' stuff. Having to do a two button frame perfect input to move is crazy, and Sakurai never thought to ask upon seeing this (because he does know about WDing) "Is dashing really that bad?"

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

O...kay? The context makes it sorta difficult to get. To make another point: You can just as easily be crushed by a good opponent in Brawl as you can in Melee. Or Mario Kart. Or... basketball. Or... Monopoly. Tech skills being necessary doesn't change that.

And I agree, the game shouldn't require twitchy hands to play. However, Sakurai has to recognize what the techs are being used for an include alternatives/buff the 'normal' stuff. Having to do a two button frame perfect input to move is crazy, and Sakurai never thought to ask upon seeing this (because he does know about WDing) "Is dashing really that bad?"

See, here's another issue. My issue isn't with people who are better than me. If Sm4sh had no difficult to perform techniques, and I simply got outplayed by someone who knew the character and stage better than me, I would have no issue. My issue is when I'm beaten because my opponent has fingers of rubber and can use physics exploits and made up complicated BS to get the advantage, then has the gall to tell me "learn to play" or whatever. I want to play Smash Brothers, not a generic Nintendo themed fighter. Yet, that's what it seems like a great deal of the more vocal competitive players seem to want, what with their Wavedashing, L-cancelling, hyper aggressive gameplay styles and such. It's like no one likes Smash for what it is, they want to add things or "discover new techniques." Why? Is the game by itself so bad that people NEED to complicate it? Or is it that people hate a game where someone doesn't have to play for extended periods of time to be good, and therefore they don't have some sort of advantage over the common player? Smash will always be a simple game to me, but then people turn around and decree that it isn't, how Sakurai is wrong for wanting the game he created to be a certain way and hate how he wants the skill gap to be closer!

Do people even WANT more people to play competitively?

 

[Saikyoshi]

I don't like your tone... I really don't like your tone... But I agree that the barrier needs to be easier to cross.

Not by making the gameplay more shallow. You can have a deep game that you don't need to put insane amounts of time into in order to be competent. Brawl is not how you do it, though.

Sakurai seems to be doing it right with For Glory mode; only putting you against players with the same skill level so you can improve at your own pace and break through the ice naturally.

Reducing the options isn't how you make a good metagame. Helping the less experienced and dexterous players break through is.

 

[Dracometeor]

Who said anything about paying? I'm talking public tournaments. No money, just people playing the game for the sake of playing the game. And I'm glad I'm forced to hide away and play only with people I personally know or get thrashed. Or I can dedicate great portions of my life to a GAME and make it cease to be fun anymore. People too often only care about winning and that's the only way they can have any fun, so they take games like Smash and overcomplicate them just to get a little more leg up over everyone else. They do not want anyone who hasn't put in the insane amount of time they've put into it to be anywhere near them, and if the game doesn't have features that take months to master, the game is "terrible," doesn't have "depth," or "options." Oh and defending tech barriers just makes you sound elitist. You are literally saying you want something in the game to stop people from being anywhere on your level unless they too spend stupid amounts of time practicing.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: On SmashBoards, the word "easy" is taboo.

@ Second Power : I know Brawl has Advanced Techniques. I was being facetious because people complain how it doesn't. Or they complain about how the ATs aren't the AT's they want.

First, just to help you clarify then you shouldn't say Public Tournament and expect people to assume it's free. Most tournaments are paid so if you mean free then say free. Assuming that your actually playing a tournament still and not just playing matches.

Do you get thrashed by EVERYONE besides your friends? If so you may just be fairly bad at the game... No offense, but just because they beat you doesn't mean they spend a ton of time playing...

You know why competitive players didn't like Brawl? Because it's slow, campy and boring as hell to watch because of this. Melee is fast and exciting.

The funny thing is I don't like most tech barriers, I hate L canceling (should just have landing lag adapted in general to make it faster) Wave dashing is a terrible replacement for dashing making it more complicated. Short hopping and Fast fall are neat though. They are also very easy to grasp/understand which is how I think most AT's should be. It should require you to KNOW of it but not necessarily train your muscle memory to do it.

However in the end, generally a person who has spent more time on something tends to become better then a person who has not. Some people are naturally good and some naturally bad, but if you spend 1 hour a day doing something compared to someone that does that same task 3 hours a day it's natural for them to be better.

Stop whining about getting rekt and move on. Or get better yourself. I smell so much salt.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Short hopping and Fast fall are neat though. They are also very easy to grasp/understand which is how I think most AT's should be. It should require you to KNOW of it but not necessarily train your muscle memory to do it.

Agreed. I wouldn't mind Wavedashing as much if it was, 1. Less painful to use, like if activated by a dedicated button or something, and 2. mentioned in the game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I had so many things I wanted to say...

Then I realized it was utterly pointless. I'll be preaching to the choir and no amount of logic, begging for compromise or applying to emotion will ever change the minds of those set in their ways.

In a way, I kind of hope Sm4sh doesn't have any new advanced techs. I want it to be JUST LIKE BRAWL.

That way if I ever decide to host a For-Fun public tournament at say my college, I won't have to worry about getting my *** stomped by someone with twitch reflexes, too much free time and an obsession with getting better and better at a party fighter bordering on the insane. They'll be too busy here circle-jerking it about how much the game sucks and how there's not enough combos and advanced techniques. That'll just leave the people I actually WANT to play with. :\

Assholes are not mutually exclusive to smash bros; they're in every community, dude.

 

[Hitzel]

Or I can dedicate great portions of my life to a GAME and make it cease to be fun anymore. People too often only care about winning and that's the only way they can have any fun, so they take games like Smash and overcomplicate them just to get a little more leg up over everyone else. They do not want anyone who hasn't put in the insane amount of time they've put into it to be anywhere near them

Is the idea of people being more successful than you really that upsetting?

People put time into things they like and get good at those things. That's kinda how human being function. Take "difficult to execute moves" out of a game and the more dedicated and experienced players out there are still going to beat the less dedicated and less experienced. If you want to be as successful as those who have put more hard-earned work in than you, I'm sorry but you can't have it. Remove all of the AT's you want, it still won't happen.

Why do people like playing to win?

People like playing to win because winning and improving tend to be fun and interesting. If your friends and you don't want to be bothered with dealing with other people winning that's fine, you can decide to play only with each other. The problem is that destroying everyone else's experience with Smash just so that YOU specifically can do as well as others (which won't actually happen) when you purposely have chosen not to get involved and learn is incredibly selfish.

People are "overcomplicating" a party game?

No matter what a designer wants a game to be, once the game is released developer intent ceases to matter. Smash is as complicated and deep as Smash is, not as much as Sakurai says it is. When a match begins, the game only knows winning and losing (and sometimes a tie) based on the rules being used. Whatever ways to win people find are a part of Smash. People finding them may be finding complications, but they aren't find OVER-complications because that depth was an unknown part of Smash before it was found.

All of the gaming tournaments I've been to have been awesome, so it sucks to hear that you had a bad experience. Despite that, sabotaging everyone else's Smash experience as payback sucks even more.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

After reading responses, I face-palmed. HARD.

First off, again, no. It's not about getting 'rekt' or whatever. And it's not EVERYONE. I'm talking about one over competitve player walking into a free tournament and crushing everyone else simply because they can twist their fingers into knots. I don't care that someone is more successful or beats me. Hell, I don't even care about myself anymore! I'm irritated as a whole that such a simple game can't be left simple and must be complicated, or it automatically sucks.

And seriously, the elitism is SO HIGH in this thread. I am seriously getting pissed off at the constant "argument" of, "I'd still wreck you without ATs because you suck and I'm good."

Seriously? Get off your f**king high horse. I've played Smash for years, and not just a little either. I've had probably just as much practice as half of you all, the only difference being that practice wasn't involving Wavedashing or L-canceling or every other technique that wasn't in the nature of Smash.

But screw it. No one will listen. I'm a scrub, or a noob, or a casual, or whatever term you want to use because I don't use and want to use ATs, but you all can still beat me without them anyway, howthef**kdoesthatmakesense. I'm sure I'll give all sorts of circular logical reasoning stating why I suck because I suck (seriously, half the arguments are a mobius strip of "ATs aren't important but they are important which is why I'll always beat you with them and without them") And thanks for completely ignoring all the times I've played Smash and any character knowledge I've gained therein. Glad to know I've just been blankly hitting buttons and forgetting everything I've done afterwards.

(And now to wait for the obligatory and inflammatory post from someone whose name I shall not mention.)

 

[Saikyoshi]

I won't call you a scrub or a noob or whatever. Because it's very clear that you're not.

I will, however, call you a total jerk who keeps putting words in our mouths.

 

[Malex]

Your problem isn't really with advance tactics, it's with the attitudes of those you play against. (And your response to it)

I will always go 100%. I don't care if it friendlies, casuals, or whatever. Depending on the situation, I have differing attitudes. It is usually reciprocal. If I play someone with a bad attitude, I will talk ****. If I play someone who doesn't, I will encourage them.

You gotta put out positive energy and be a good sport. When I started playing with a local group of casuals. 2 of them would be very aggressive and negative towards me. One refused to play with me. The other stopped playing altogether. The other 10 learned a lot and the skill of the entire group was raised.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

After reading responses, I face-palmed. HARD.

First off, again, no. It's not about getting 'rekt' or whatever. And it's not EVERYONE. I'm talking about one over competitve player walking into a free tournament and crushing everyone else simply because they can twist their fingers into knots. I don't care that someone is more successful or beats me. Hell, I don't even care about myself anymore! I'm irritated as a whole that such a simple game can't be left simple and must be complicated, or it automatically sucks.

And seriously, the elitism is SO HIGH in this thread. I am seriously getting pissed off at the constant "argument" of, "I'd still wreck you without ATs because you suck and I'm good."

Seriously? Get off your f**king high horse. I've played Smash for years, and not just a little either. I've had probably just as much practice as half of you all, the only difference being that practice wasn't involving Wavedashing or L-canceling or every other technique that wasn't in the nature of Smash.

But screw it. No one will listen. I'm a scrub, or a noob, or a casual, or whatever term you want to use because I don't use and want to use ATs, but you all can still beat me without them anyway, howthef**kdoesthatmakesense. I'm sure I'll give all sorts of circular logical reasoning stating why I suck because I suck (seriously, half the arguments are a mobius strip of "ATs aren't important but they are important which is why I'll always beat you with them and without them") And thanks for completely ignoring all the times I've played Smash and any character knowledge I've gained therein. Glad to know I've just been blankly hitting buttons and forgetting everything I've done afterwards.

(And now to wait for the obligatory and inflammatory post from someone whose name I shall not mention.)

i understand ur plight . i dream of a smash where people combo but it somthing every one ca do and not just an AT to dp the combo. i also want people tostop living in the past but thats just me.

 

[TweetyPurd]

I think we need to look at "what is competative?"

If one player is WAY better than another, then there is no competition
however, advanced techniques might aid a players ability to play better, but i think we would all agree that putting more TIME into a game is what really improves you.

Many of my friends dislike melee and wavedashing, ect, because they cant do it first try and cant use it mid game, they want to be as good as me in one hour when it took me one year.

Having these advanced techniques allows players to get better if they want to compete at a higher level.
Personally, i dont care about being the best in the world, i just wanted to be better than my friends, and thats enough for me personally, but if you want more, i think that option should be given to you

 

[PCHU]

stuff

Every now and then I'll get to play some matches with some casuals, and I pretty much always have fun.
I'll sandbag a little, but if someone wants a real match, I'll give it to 'em (some people who love the game also love to learn).
The important thing is to just be a good sport about it all; if you see someone struggling, make some suggestions, or if you're struggling, ask some questions.
I've got one person local that's near my level, and after every session we'll discuss what we enjoyed about the matches and where we could improve.

Also, even though Melee can get pretty AT-heavy, you don't need them to win; personally, I'd go Marth vs Falco just because it's easier for me to focus on the match when I'm not thinking about constantly lasering or not messing up shield pressure (in some cases, a missed l-cancel can lead to death).

I noticed you said you had trouble vs Falco doing stuff you didn't understand; if I find a situation overwhelming or if I'm just not familiar with it at all, I break it down into pieces I can understand and work from there.
Estimate ideal spacing, determine when it's okay to grab, find a habit to punish, just anything simple.
Yeah, I play Falco in Melee, but I play DK and Ganon in PM because they're simple and efficient with that simplicity.

As far as not being content with a simple game, well, I can be content with it, but after seeing how much stuff has been found and having loads of fun in both casual and competitive environments with both Melee and Brawl utilizing different techniques and styles, I can't say that I would fully enjoy it being oversimplified.
What we have now is fantastic, and, honestly, all I want back is the ability to crouch cancel a dash.
Everything else about Smash 4's looking solid, and I'm pretty sure they're running on a different engine than what we were given.

In conclusion to simplicity overall, I've seen this argument brought up a few times, but really, I'm not sure what you're looking for; Smash just isn't a simple game.
I mean, it is, but it isn't, and that's what makes it a great series.
Even in 64 they had "smooth landing" and land-canceling shine and double jump cancels, but it can also be enjoyed casually.
There's a lot I have to say, but I don't want to set up a wall of text, so I'll just end this post by saying okay.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Aaaaaaand you guys are proving his point. Why are you proving his point?!

 

[TeaTwoTime]

If someone takes the time to learn every intricacy in the game in order to gain the edge over opponents who don't, and the player who makes no attempt to learn these intricate techniques consistently loses to them, then those losses are perfectly reasonable and the logical outcome of them not making those same efforts. The player who puts their time into improving in the most effective ways deserves to win.

For the record, I'm not a competitive Smash player by any means.

 

[Stake]

Brawl is the type of game you don't even need to practice for.

Thats why its not very competitive :D

 

[Butt Luckily]

After reading responses, I face-palmed. HARD.

First off, again, no. It's not about getting 'rekt' or whatever. And it's not EVERYONE. I'm talking about one over competitve player walking into a free tournament and crushing everyone else simply because they can twist their fingers into knots. I don't care that someone is more successful or beats me. Hell, I don't even care about myself anymore! I'm irritated as a whole that such a simple game can't be left simple and must be complicated, or it automatically sucks.

Why am I not allowed to play the video game I want to play how and where I want? Who are you to tell me what I am and am not allowed to do when I play? I don't complain when others play the game differently than me. The one that appears to be elitist and exclusionary seems to be you. I hear far more complaining about how the competitive play from the casuals rather than the other way around.

 

[Veggi]

For people that don't understand why game design is the way it is:

Imagine I'm a college student who loves to play video games. I have to go to classes, do homework, go to work during the semester, and still hang out with friends enough that they don't hate me. When the Summer starts I have to work the entire time so I have enough money for the next semester. When I finally get to play the game, do you think I want to play by myself doing the same complicated techniques over and over so I can learn them or do you think I would want to get better at the game by having fun? I want to be able to get last in a tournament and still be able to use every option at my disposal so that I can have fun. If I can't get better at the game by playing against my friends, then I'm not going to give the developer my money.

 

[Hitzel]

After reading responses, I face-palmed. HARD.

First off, again, no. It's not about getting 'rekt' or whatever. And it's not EVERYONE. I'm talking about one over competitve player walking into a free tournament and crushing everyone else simply because they can twist their fingers into knots. I don't care that someone is more successful or beats me. Hell, I don't even care about myself anymore! I'm irritated as a whole that such a simple game can't be left simple and must be complicated, or it automatically sucks.

And seriously, the elitism is SO HIGH in this thread. I am seriously getting pissed off at the constant "argument" of, "I'd still wreck you without ATs because you suck and I'm good."

Seriously? Get off your f**king high horse. I've played Smash for years, and not just a little either. I've had probably just as much practice as half of you all, the only difference being that practice wasn't involving Wavedashing or L-canceling or every other technique that wasn't in the nature of Smash.

But screw it. No one will listen. I'm a scrub, or a noob, or a casual, or whatever term you want to use because I don't use and want to use ATs, but you all can still beat me without them anyway, howthef**kdoesthatmakesense. I'm sure I'll give all sorts of circular logical reasoning stating why I suck because I suck (seriously, half the arguments are a mobius strip of "ATs aren't important but they are important which is why I'll always beat you with them and without them") And thanks for completely ignoring all the times I've played Smash and any character knowledge I've gained therein. Glad to know I've just been blankly hitting buttons and forgetting everything I've done afterwards.

(And now to wait for the obligatory and inflammatory post from someone whose name I shall not mention.)

I'll be completely honest here, the way you word your posts is very aggressive and rude and I'd probably suspect your posts for any negative responses you get. That being said, the best way to respond to you is probably the whole "kill 'em with kindness" routine, but since we're talking about the cold truth about competition here, I'm being a bit too stern and honest for that. I apologize for not being as polite as I probably should.

The cold truth about competition is that the more dedicated, experienced and talented will find more ways to win. Without the AT's you don't like they will still find ways to win. Maybe you like the ways to win without these AT's, and that's fine to prefer a different game, but people in your situation usually find another barrier that they would rather oppose than improve at. And again, we're at a situation where players out there will put in the work to get good at those things and leave others behind. Those left behind sometimes blame the thing they are losing to instead of why they lost (themselves not putting in the work). It will always happen because there will always be people pushing the game to a point where others don't want to keep going.

For you, certain AT's seem to be that point where you are unwilling to keep going. That's what I'm sensing from your posts.

For the record, I'm not good at Smash. I more or less play 3-player Brawl FFA's with 2 close friends and occasional 1v1's. I don't know how to Wavedash or even L-Cancel and don't really play Melee because of them, although I understand how they work. I play Capcom fighting games but my forte is the shooter genre, especially Halo.

The reason I've said what I've said with confidence is because these concepts apply to ALL games, not just Smash. Your situation is not unique or special and neither is Smash when it comes to the nature of competition. That's why I say that any game is as complicated as that game is, and the people finding things that make it more complicated than your taste are simply understanding the truth of the game more.

"Keeping it simple" is dishonest in that light, because choosing not to progress is ignoring the truth about the game. Wavedashing and L-Canceling are 100% definitely the nature of Smash because they are a part of Smash. It doesn't matter that Smash is "supposed to be simple" or a "party game" because once the game fires up and people are holding controllers in their hands, if something is in the game it's in the game and no amount of logic and reasoning make Wavedashing and L-Canceling stop existing. The only way to make them not exist is by playing "house rules," which is why things like getting outside of the playing area in certain games are generally soft-banned; the general population enforces rules against doing that.

At this point I'm going to bow out of my discussion because I'm repeating myself. I suggest reading this book if you want something more to think about on this subject. Good talk.

 

[ChikoLad]

For people that don't understand why game design is the way it is:

Imagine I'm a college student who loves to play video games. I have to go to classes, do homework, go to work during the semester, and still hang out with friends enough that they don't hate me. When the Summer starts I have to work the entire time so I have enough money for the next semester. When I finally get to play the game, do you think I want to play by myself doing the same complicated techniques over and over so I can learn them or do you think I would want to get better at the game by having fun? I want to be able to get last in a tournament and still be able to use every option at my disposal so that I can have fun. If I can't get better at the game by playing against my friends, then I'm not going to give the developer my money.

Pretty much my stance.

This is why I love the fact Smash has lots of extra modes. They help me improve in many different ways (in terms of particular character techniques, general reaction times, etc) while also being a fun and different way to play.

When Smash 3DS comes out, I don't want a bare bones fighting game where I can do nothing but try to look for advanced techniques. I want to be able to balance training out with unadulterated fun. Which is why I'm so glad Smash Run is a thing.

 

[PCHU]

For people that don't understand why game design is the way it is:

Imagine I'm a college student who loves to play video games. I have to go to classes, do homework, go to work during the semester, and still hang out with friends enough that they don't hate me. When the Summer starts I have to work the entire time so I have enough money for the next semester. When I finally get to play the game, do you think I want to play by myself doing the same complicated techniques over and over so I can learn them or do you think I would want to get better at the game by having fun? I want to be able to get last in a tournament and still be able to use every option at my disposal so that I can have fun. If I can't get better at the game by playing against my friends, then I'm not going to give the developer my money.

But most of the useful stuff I've learned came from fighting with friends.

Against the most technical players, you know what I do as DK and Ganon?
I space with tilts and go for grabs because that's what I know how to do.
Unless there is a technique that forbids me to make reads and play the game, I don't care what my opponent uses (although some characters are pretty stupid).
Fundamentals are keeping me ahead in the game; techniques just add onto that.

While I do see your point, if we come across a situation where someone primarily gets their KOs from stage spikes and I keep teching them and spiking them in return, is it bad that I'm getting ahead for taking time to learn something, or is it the other player's fault for sheltering themselves and only accepting one way to fight?