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The Better Lucario Official Guide/Faq/Database (Now with More Lawl!)

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
Hey stickies!

Didn't see that button o.O

Anyway yeah, Snake has a huge player-base, him, ike, meta and possibly sonic. Should get the most common out of the way. Doesn't matter in the end though, whatever Milln gets done, gets done. They'll all get done in the end.
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
2,625
Location
Tennessee
I'm just goin' down the list in alphabetical order. O,o If you want me to do Snake and Meta Knight and some other characters first, i'll jump to them, instead. We need to have data on all 34(+ or - transformations) characters in order to be effective, not just a couple of the most popular ones.
 

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
Of course of course, I just meant to get the more popular ones done first to serve more people faster (business courses are kicking in).
 

Milln

Smash Champion
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Feb 9, 2008
Messages
2,625
Location
Tennessee
But i'm laaaaaaaaaaaaazy....

Tch, fine. XDD

I'll get Snake next, then. And Meta.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
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in my SCIENCE! lab
Feel free to do whatever u need, just one question:
how r u going to do these videos? U often say that u don't have a friend near u, so u can't display easily how to defeat the said character. If u find a way around, go for it, I'm not holding u back, I'm just saying, we need to think this through.
 

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
Feel free to do whatever u need, just one question:
how r u going to do these videos? U often say that u don't have a friend near u, so u can't display easily how to defeat the said character. If u find a way around, go for it, I'm not holding u back, I'm just saying, we need to think this through.
Guest appearances on Inner Fire?



Edit: I played my friend to day, tested the DDD chaingrab on Lucario. There were times I was completely unable to escape, so I guess it can be done properly. What I noticed though is that spot-dodge or rolling seems to be the best option. I was never able to get a jab off before he re-grabbed, shielding (was mainly to see if i could do anything between throws) is obviously useless, and Force Palm never grabbed once, DDD just re-grabbed me before the flames came out.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
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Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Guest appearances on Inner Fire?



Edit: I played my friend to day, tested the DDD chaingrab on Lucario. There were times I was completely unable to escape, so I guess it can be done properly. What I noticed though is that spot-dodge or rolling seems to be the best option. I was never able to get a jab off before he re-grabbed, shielding (was mainly to see if i could do anything between throws) is obviously useless, and Force Palm never grabbed once, DDD just re-grabbed me before the flames came out.
And now, put ur hands together for the Aura Hour With Inner Fire! Here we have our guest, omg, AZEN!
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
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Tennessee
O,o... Who said I was going to do videos?


Also, on a related note, I do have matches recorded of me vs. Azen. XD They're old, though. WiFi, as well. And both Azen and I have changed our styles and gotten better.

Also, WTB your friends, Nodrak. D=
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Apr 15, 2008
Messages
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in my SCIENCE! lab
IDK about u guys, but I'm thinking dtilt, ftilt, and spacing smashes are going to be key to stop a chaining Dx3. Yay, for once, maybe dtilt will have a spotlight in the arsenal. But I will have to test this sometime.
 

Nurotasama

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
465
Hey looke: its a sticky! How did I miss that?

What I was thinking about versus D3 is that if one could get the LSJ down consistently over a few months of practice one should be able to simply maintain aerial position to prevent chain grabs in the first place. While obviously not viable now its a possibility eventually.

A good D3 with chaingrab is the only character in the game that I have a major habit of camping versus (well... and some of the more counter-happy Marths), though the Doos and Dees create quite a blockade against AS that can cause some problems. Probably the best way to camp with AS then is to alternate (though not in a linear fashion) between a higher and lower BAS or partially charged AS to attempt to get between the DeeDoo spam. And even if it doesn't work in the match you don't have much of a problem since the only thing needed to worry about is the occasional Gordo (if it can reach you).

I've seen that some D3 players try to use the Doo lasers as a trap to give time to charge their more powerful (sometime an understatement) smash attacks. Since the Doos always stop walking and start to jiggle before they-a fire their laz0rz you could always use this to your advantage for a free reverse/regular DT.

I personally prefer to simply avoid as many attacks with more lag as I can, including Force Palm unless in a good position to get a low-percentage chain grab off on Mr. CG. I also tend to use Dair more against DDD than I do against other characters: I guess maybe its because even a mallet doesn't make up for being a massive target (and probably the fact that D3's Uair doesn't cover his full body from above and utilt being of shorter range).
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
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2,694
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AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
>_> Against DeDeDe...stay in the air any way you can XD!
He can't grab you there o.o...
<_< I mean, you could try buff rolling and stuff so you can escape from the SLIGHTEST delay in his regrab, and struggle any time you're grabbed, but if they're good, you're done for.
I suppose the best way to counter the grab is to keep the distance and lure him in, and from there you can SHDAir or ShfflDair, or even SHFair->Nair->Jabx3; etc.

=/ I mean, just mess up their timing any way possible, since thats how DeDeDe runs - Like clockwork :o!
-DD
 

Silvran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
128
How does n-air work against d3's chain grab? Not sure how fast it is in comparison, but could it work due to its speed? Just throwing around random ideas, I don't know anyone who can do it to test (and I can't do it for the life of me, not to mention I don't feel like practicing the chain grab for d3 when I play Luc).
 

Tallen

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
388
Location
Brazil (surprised?)
ironically, Dee's CG DOESN'T work on Louie, which just makes him even better =3
oh and I'd rather have some scotch on the rocks any day, though some nice borscht would do.
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
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Tennessee
June 3rd, 2008- Dedede confirmed. Don't get grabbed.


I'll get Snah-kay up later this evening early morning.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
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in my SCIENCE! lab
>_> Against DeDeDe...stay in the air any way you can XD!
He can't grab you there o.o...
<_< I mean, you could try buff rolling and stuff so you can escape from the SLIGHTEST delay in his regrab, and struggle any time you're grabbed, but if they're good, you're done for.
I suppose the best way to counter the grab is to keep the distance and lure him in, and from there you can SHDAir or ShfflDair, or even SHFair->Nair->Jabx3; etc.

=/ I mean, just mess up their timing any way possible, since thats how DeDeDe runs - Like clockwork :o!
-DD
Well, in the normal school of thought, that would work, but in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oECew6wDH98
ya, even dair didn't quite help him enough, as he landed into a chain :p
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Tennessee
June 4th, 2008- Added Snah-kay matchup. Version 1.0 complete. Also added Lucario's Codec call in the Versatility section. Added more to Dedede, making it 1.2 and clarified on Ike.

Satisfactory? Meta's later unless I forget or am lazy. >,>

Any ideas for fighting Zelda?
Until I do the matchup officially:

Baby Aura Sphere disrupts their Din spam. Approaching from above will get you StarKo'd, so don't do it. Staying at midrange is best, probably. Use ftilt and fsmash for spacing.
 

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
Looks great!
Yeah, Zelda is on of the few characters you don't want under you; besides that make it a range game.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Hey Milln, I updated the Double Team chart. shows 169% instead and put the "note: DI can make these numbers off by a bit bla bla" note in the pic.

Here it is
Thanks for the chart. But we are now, no longer the Knights who say "NI"! We are the Knights who say "IKI-IKI-IKI-IKI-P'TANG ZOOP-OING!" You must now cut down the mightiest tree in the forest, with a herring!
 

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thanks for the chart. But we are now, no longer the Knights who say "NI"! We are the Knights who say "IKI-IKI-IKI-IKI-P'TANG ZOOP-OING!" You must now cut down the mightiest tree in the forest, with a herring!
Deja-vu

10shrubberies
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,489
Location
NS, Canada
I have a new image for the next time you update your guide Milln: :laugh:


credit for idea goes to imbigbob on DA, but I didn't like his execution so I made my own

Now with Impostors!
 

Nurotasama

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
465
Even more about Snake:

Snake can grenade strip, meaning if he throws a grenade and you try to throw it back he can shield drop a second nade that will somehow defy physics and cause its brethren to drop on the spot -- its brethren being the ticking bomb in your hand or in front of your face if just thrown. Be wary of this if he has only one grenade out or the second is in the 'cooking' mode before it becomes an item from shield-drop.

Another trick that may be used with a grenade is that Snake may shield a flurry of close range attacks by pulling out a grenade and quickly shielding the attacks: the grenade will fall to the floor and explode 3 seconds after it was pulled out, injuring you in your aggressive assault while his shield protects him. If this happens you have a few options: shield the grenade; grab Snake with a regular grab and let you both take damage from the explosion; roll away; DT the grenade's explosion. Try to mix things up -- if you mix up your defensive options with DT you can attempt to mold your opponent's actions: might you shield the grenade and grab that time? Or DT? Or possibly roll away and BAS/AS? Leave him guessing and try not to be predictable, or try to use predictability as a trap to change your counter nature later.

The mortar dash, mortar slide, slip-n-slide mortar cannon, or whatever else its called is also used by Snake players, though in varying amounts: Snake starts a dash attack and immediately switches into a usmash, providing the momentum of the dash attack to his usmash and allowing quick travel across the ground for the player. Some players use this as a damaging approach, others use it only for an attempt to juggle: either way DT or a dodge/shield solves the problem. The attack is capable of hitting twice if you are on the ground at certain ranges: once for the animation of laying the mortar cannon -- which knocks you into the air -- and once for firing the actual mortar that has been charged up at you. If you attempt to shield make sure you don't forget about the other hit!

Defensively, Snake players can also hold down A to simply cancel any BAS and AS below the power of a charged 0% one. The fact that A simply needs to be held to cause a plethora of jabs also makes it a deadly foe close-range: expect to see everything close range to be met with ftilt or AAA and the occasional utilt if it will KO.

Don't try to stop his Nikita missiles also: all you can do usually is deflect them upward, at which point they will slow down and Snake can simply turn them back on you no problem. The only AS that can clash with the Nikita is one of power equal to or greater than a fully charged AS at 91%, and by this I mean one that deals 20 damage-- this destroys the Nikita and the AS, however, and as such is not that useful unless in a situational dire recovery. It's possible to use an AS charge as a shield to the Nikita and it will be hit by the constant charge damage and be unable to explode on you; just make sure to step over in the direction the missile is coming from once it gets caught in the charge to prevent Snake from redirecting it on you. In most situations it is generally better to just dodge it, though... especially if on the ground: while Snake can hit shield to cancel the missile and drop it, he is left immobile for half-a-second while putting away the guiding system -- hit him with a quick AS, Dair, or Fsmash here while he is defenseless if possible.

Some Snakes also use the Nikitas or C4 as a counter in recovery or to try to escape a juggle: if you see a Snake fly off the top of the visible screen using his cypher, expect to have some kind of difficult to spot explosive coming straight back down.

While rare, the C4 -> Utilt combo can be deadly. Pretty much if you are in very close and shield at an incorrect time Snake can stick you with a C4 and utilt you into the air, then detonate the C4 at the peak of your height for an easy star KO around 40%+.

Always remember that explosives = DT ammo. While situational it isn't too situational with the number of explosives present: just time the explosion and DT right before it goes off to take no damage and have your counter activated. Reverse DT can also be a recovery option if the Snake has the ledge fortified and mortar-spammed: just DT into the mortars if you can't simply kick them and break on through.


Also try not to underestimate Snake's aerial game. While he may be less mobile than a slice of cheesecake falling off a table, all of his aerials are extremely powerful. His Nair is like an aerial Chuck Norris version of his AAA; his uair is like an aerial utilt; his dair is like he wants to be Lucario but just can't float because he's not awesome enough; his bair is a VERY LONG sexkick, both in duration and hitbox size... and its still ridiculously powerful (and can make a very nice kill when suddenly FF'd). Maintain good spacing in the air and attack from odd angles if possible, especially the upper front since Snake's Fair has a decent bit of startup lag. If you want to combat an aerial snake try to mix things up between your Fair-fun combos and charged AS. What I mean is, try not to get close and do something stupid and both predictable AND counter-able when he is in the air -- just because Lucario's aerial game is better doesn't mean you are invincible.

And for the love of all that is blue and firey, don't get in his Fair's sweetspot range if you plan to chase him off of the edge: it might be slow, but you don't want a chance of a high-powered spike coming your way when things are in your favour all because you missed one move.

If you attack aerial normally above a level and he air dodges, Snake just may try to sticky you with some C4 if you remain close by. And being already in the air where he can detonate and kill at low percents off the top, you don't want that happening. Spacing is key always!


When you get around to trying to KO him, try to keep a charged AS ready. If both of you are around the 90+ mark a fully charged AS is enough to KO him off the side when near the edge on Final Destination. While numbers will change based on the level, the fact is that it is fully capable of a KO without the chance you may fall to a AAA, Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, Bair, Nair, Grenade, C4, Every-other-attack-in-his-arsenal attack unless you fall for the likely 2 grenades, proximity mine, C4 placed/thrown around... literally.


In conclusion, keep an extremely sharp mind on spacing and defensive aspects of play when fighting this heavy hitter. Try to block and dodge even at the sacrifice of a potential string or combo unless you are sure it will work. Keep an eye on the many explosives utilized, abusing them yourself with DT if given the chance, and try to keep a varying pressure game to reduce your opponent's control of the stage. Snake is a character that plays through power and varying pressure that reduces your options: try to deny him the second at least.


Edit: Some mortar dash just to be thorough. Personally I only use it excessively on people who I can figure out have difficulty dodging/shielding it fully.
 

Tallen

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
388
Location
Brazil (surprised?)
c-c-c-combo breaker
wow nice detective job Nuro o.o either way sorry for the misinformation about DDD. swear I read somewhere that you couldn't be CG'ed...
 

Nurotasama

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
465
More personal experience than detective work, though I have read through the guides on the Snake boards before.
 

Milln

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,625
Location
Tennessee
tl;dr @ Nuro's post

=D

I'll update... uhh... sometime. I've had to be busy the last few days, and tomorrow, too. >,<
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
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Irvine CA
heres something Quick I kinda learned from matches(sorry if it's commonly known):
VS sonic his SpinDash moves(DownB ,ForwardB,and his Dash attack) can all be stopped by an Aura Sphere Charge in their Face at 50%ish and above it's very useful as it takes out his Dash attack which is kinda a key move in their ground Game. at least VS my opponents it seemed that once you take away all their spins they're kinda helpless =P
 

Popertop

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,131
Location
Houston (Clear Lake)
c-c-c-combo breaker
wow nice detective job Nuro o.o either way sorry for the misinformation about DDD. swear I read somewhere that you couldn't be CG'ed...
You probably read that he wasn't one of the 7 characters that are [bold]infinited[/bold] and confused that with being chaingrabbed. I hate that he can't get out of it. If he did get out of it for some reason, I would not fear any matchup. 'Cept Snake. And that's less fear than it is being realistic and aware.

I love Lucario. I was playing today and he just fits my playstyle so well.
So much versatility, so little time...

I love your sig Tallen! TOO KYOOT!!!

Nice post Nuro, that will help me a lot during this tourney this weekend.
Wish me luck guys!
 
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