-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Big MI Discussion Topic
- Thread starter jv3x3
- Start date
Roller
Smash Legend
I saw this on FB today.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
roller you should play something thats not legacy. I promise you soon there will be no legacy format, especially after the pro tour last weekend. Among the competitive scene is generally seen as a not very competitive format. For obvious reasons, when a game is 20 years old wizards cant plan the recent sets to balance with old cards. Leading to really unfair combos that just break the game. It becomes a game of wealth and not intelligence.
You should play modern, its much more fair. It was invented to replace legacy and most of your cards are probably modern legal anyways. Or play standard like a man. And if you dont have an EDH deck you should definitely make one ^_^ theyre awesome
gifts did you finish your jund midrange deck? when youre done you should send me a decklist ^_^
oh and there are plenty of SCG events in michigan. There was just one in garden city last weekend. the next big event is in grand rapids next weekend, i think theres also something going on in lansing this weekend. Obviously theres local tourneys every weekend but im just talking about big events.
http://griffonevents.com/?page_id=83
You should play modern, its much more fair. It was invented to replace legacy and most of your cards are probably modern legal anyways. Or play standard like a man. And if you dont have an EDH deck you should definitely make one ^_^ theyre awesome
gifts did you finish your jund midrange deck? when youre done you should send me a decklist ^_^
oh and there are plenty of SCG events in michigan. There was just one in garden city last weekend. the next big event is in grand rapids next weekend, i think theres also something going on in lansing this weekend. Obviously theres local tourneys every weekend but im just talking about big events.
http://griffonevents.com/?page_id=83
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
I switched it to bant control. :D I'll fb you the list later.
SoulPech
Smash Master
This is mainly for Stewy. I got this from Steep's post on the Mario Boards:
lol. Stewy still bringing the salt.
What's The Point
Smash Master
stewy is my hero.
clowsui
Smash Legend
LMAO!!!!!
Stewy had me extra salty at RAGE too. Stewy salt 2 good
Stewy had me extra salty at RAGE too. Stewy salt 2 good
Stewy = son of LORD Joe.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
i saw it on skype, my fb isnt active atm. I like it ^_^ i didnt know you had 3 jaces lol but ill talk to you about it on skype or something
You can be salty, sure.. but being this salty when it was your fault you lost to an ICs that wasn't completing any CGs? Ashamed should be the only thing you are.i mean, would any of you get salty if ya lost to stewy in brax? i guess i can kinda relate to steep tho. kinda feel bad for him.
least he isnt no spec tho
I don't feel sad for anyone who comes up with reasons why they lost that is not "I got outplayed".
LOE1
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2011
- Messages
- 1,692
unless its wifiI don't feel sad for anyone who comes up with reasons why they lost that is not "I got outplayed".
WTF too much salt it just doesnt endThis is mainly for Stewy. I got this from Steep's post on the Mario Boards:
lol. Stewy still bringing the salt.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
stewwy im so proud of you
mk and IC players have one thing in common: they both have to sit there and enjoy ****** someone while they scream about how unfair it is and how cheap youre being
its amazing
'nado is SO UNFAIR'
'Chaingrabbing is so unfair!!'
mk and IC players have one thing in common: they both have to sit there and enjoy ****** someone while they scream about how unfair it is and how cheap youre being
its amazing
'nado is SO UNFAIR'
'Chaingrabbing is so unfair!!'
SoulPech
Smash Master
He didn't CG against Spec too much.
Roller
Smash Legend
I've been paying a lot of attention to Modern, and have discussed the format with a number of competitive Standard and Eternal format players. I've come to the conclusion that while Modern has a lot of potential to become a great format, it is not currently a good format to jump into.
And here's what has led me to this conclusion.
There is currently only a competitive scene at the highest level. The very top players of the format know what they are doing, and have meticulously crafted the best decks. While there is currently a pretty decent diversity among these decks (10 or so which can be played with a realistic shot of winning) it is quite literally impossible to go out against that field of decks with anything not among that elite group and hope to even come close to just breaking an even record. As opposed to Legacy where I could go on and on about viable decks; goblins, RUG Delver, BUG Delver, TES, ANT, Reanimator, Manaless Ichorid, LED Dredge (very different concept from manaless ichorid), Affinity, Solidarity, U/W Countertop, Maverick, Zoo, Dead Guy Ale, Merfolk, The Rock, Omni-tell, Hypergenesis, Painter, Eva Green, Belcher, Enchantress, ELVES!, 12 post, the various STOMPY decks, and way more. Not to even mention all the stoneblade decks running around right now.
The cardpool in Modern is currently at that sucky state where it's large enough that there will be broken interactions somewhere, but not large enough (yet) to provide enough variety in answers to these strategies so as to promote flexibility with deck construction.
This hog-ties any player who wants to come out with anything less than one of the top 8-10 decks into being condemned to butt ****. Meanwhile last weekend at the SCG Open, guy comes in and wins it all with friggin' high tide... Like. What?
Legacy's cardpool allows for infinitely more customization and options. You are able to make alterations and tailor your deck to your metagame, or to a wider field's projected metagame with novel methodology as opposed to being pigeon hole'd to the clearly defined best (and only) 3 options available for your archetype vs that local metagame in Modern.
The players are significantly more rewarded for their skill at deck selection and adaptation, before even sitting down at the table.
Then once you're down, you have to immediately start thinking. Turn 1. Before your opponent has even played a land yet, you have to consider very carefully the many possibilities. Every turn starting at the player on the draw's turn 0 requires a crap ton of thought. So much more can happen. I've had games last 2 turns and take 15 minutes, simply because of the level of mental exertion required to mull though all possible decisions at each step of their turn. If you make one wrong move turn one, odds are you're in a lot of trouble. Opting for card draw instead of forcing discard when he has a card that will hose your deck's strategy coming down on his turn which you could have prevented, naming the wrong card with therapy, going off right off the bat with TES, ANT, Belcher, straight into disruption, not comboing off when you could have because of fear of the FoW, do I want to play my creature first turn and alert him to what I'm playing for when he potentially therapies me on his turn? Or do I hold back and play the ambiguous fetch land and wait until end of turn to crack it and play a card draw/removal spell instead? Or do I want to threaten that I'm a deck which would do that to throw off his first turn decisions, even when it would conventionally not be the best play for my deck?
SOOOOO many mindgames are going on right off the bat. Not to mention the mindjob that is guessing what kind of tech your opponent sideboarded against you. There are literally ~40 viable things any given deck could side in vs any other deck. And if you're dredge, and you board in the anti-leyline plan, and they go with ravenous traps and crypts... You're in serious trouble. If I'm playing combo and guess counterspells/Mindbreakertraps/flusterstorms and side in Silence, Orim's Chant/Silence, Xantid Swarm, and/or a **** ton of discard.. I'm in a lot of trouble when half my hand, deck and combo options are all blanked by Leyline of singularity.
These thoughts continue on every single turn. Should I combo off now? What if he drew the FoW and I waste half my hand? What if I wait and he draws it next turn...
As a player who played T2 and extended competitively for more than half a decade, (with many of the top players in my region) I am very well aware of the level of mental taxation required by Modern's cardpool size. (Not too different from old legacy) It is not even close to that of Legacy.
Modern will be a good format in time. Once the cardpool is larger, the staples get reprinted a few times to drive down costs further (Will also help Legacy quite a bit. **** the reserve list though.. Seriously.), and more players start picking it up at the local level. (which will only happen after the first 2 things occur).
The local shop tried to hold a Modern tournament the other week. Apparently only ~3 people came. They've tried before. Same thing happens every time. It doesn't draw in new players, and the only tournaments that can draw in a solid number of people for it are PTs, GPs, and the occasional PTQ season. These kind of events are only in any given local player's area every few months at best. That just is not going to cut it when there are already so many T2 tourneys EVERYWHERE which they could go to whenever they want.
And T2 attracts all the new players who don't want to have to get all the old legacy cards as a result. The demographic that modern is trying to hit. It doesn't matter to players looking into breaking into a new format whether they have to spend a hundred bucks a piece on Tarmogoyfs from only ~4 years ago, or the same amount on a dual land from 2 decades ago...
Once the prices for the format drop, more customization and experimentation is allowed to occur within the format, and sponsors like SCG start promoting it more, the format will become just as important as extended was during it's apex.
Until that stuff happens... I'll go with the format which SCG is backing, in addition to Wizards who have already announced seasons of Legacy over the coming year. Plus there are ~30 legit Legacy players around here... I know of 0 people in AA serious about Modern. Why the heck would I switch to a format which has a smaller fanbase, no tournaments by me, and would require me to drop even MORE money to make new decks, in addition to limiting my options for deck building, and allowing me to play in easy mode for a far greater portion of each game.
In a year or two, or after I've completed my Legacy decks, I may start working on a Modern deck. For now, T2 or EDH would both be better options than Modern to someone in my position. (my cards, local players, tourney scene, etc)
And all of them would be worse than Legacy, for me personally.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Stewy made Steep quit Mario???
Steep was one of the most hopelessly optimistic Smashers ever.
Stewy for PR! He can HAVE my spot.
Steep was one of the most hopelessly optimistic Smashers ever.
Stewy for PR! He can HAVE my spot.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
that makes sense roller. Around east lansing its mostly EDH and standard but if aa has mostly legacy players than more power to you. I would play legacy I guess but its not something you can just jump into unfortunately. Its for people who have been competitively for a long long time. EDH isnt really that amazingly competitive its just really fun.
tell you what if you let me use one of your legacy decks ill play with you
i just dont have any myself and am definitely not going to invest in one. Except maaaaaybe an infect deck. Thats pretty inexpensive but powerful.
I cant fully agree with you that players are more rewarded for their skill though. Net decking a combo deck and then just pulling the trigger during the match really does not take that much skill. In fact unless youre playing a counter heavy deck or a really nice control deck how can you even beat a legacy combo deck? Theres a reason cards are banned. The reserve list is a necessary evil. Without the reserve list its possibile to make a deck that will give you turn 1 wins every single game. Then the match just comes down to who gets to play 1st, and thats just stupid. You cant honestly think a reprint of black lotus would be fair? Chrome mox is the fairest it will get in terms of 0 drop mana engines. Anything more than that is just going to break the game even more than legacy already is
By far the most fun and skilled method of playing is limited in my opinion. You may not want to invest in standard but you should at least do a couple drafts. Especially with the newest set, its really fun to draft. Playing sealed is a little more luck based but still really intense.
tell you what if you let me use one of your legacy decks ill play with you
i just dont have any myself and am definitely not going to invest in one. Except maaaaaybe an infect deck. Thats pretty inexpensive but powerful. I cant fully agree with you that players are more rewarded for their skill though. Net decking a combo deck and then just pulling the trigger during the match really does not take that much skill. In fact unless youre playing a counter heavy deck or a really nice control deck how can you even beat a legacy combo deck? Theres a reason cards are banned. The reserve list is a necessary evil. Without the reserve list its possibile to make a deck that will give you turn 1 wins every single game. Then the match just comes down to who gets to play 1st, and thats just stupid. You cant honestly think a reprint of black lotus would be fair? Chrome mox is the fairest it will get in terms of 0 drop mana engines. Anything more than that is just going to break the game even more than legacy already is
By far the most fun and skilled method of playing is limited in my opinion. You may not want to invest in standard but you should at least do a couple drafts. Especially with the newest set, its really fun to draft. Playing sealed is a little more luck based but still really intense.
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
yo steep is sounding just like yoshq lol
must be a mario bros thing
must be a mario bros thing
D
Deleted member
Guest
Steep should join Forever Free.
Roller
Smash Legend
1) I'd definitely lend you a deck if you wanted to try it outthat makes sense roller. Around east lansing its mostly EDH and standard but if aa has mostly legacy players than more power to you. I would play legacy I guess but its not something you can just jump into unfortunately. Its for people who have been competitively for a long long time. EDH isnt really that amazingly competitive its just really fun.
tell you what if you let me use one of your legacy decks ill play with you
I cant fully agree with you that players are more rewarded for their skill though. Net decking a combo deck and then just pulling the trigger during the match really does not take that much skill. In fact unless youre playing a counter heavy deck or a really nice control deck how can you even beat a legacy combo deck? Theres a reason cards are banned. The reserve list is a necessary evil. Without the reserve list its possibile to make a deck that will give you turn 1 wins every single game. Then the match just comes down to who gets to play 1st, and thats just stupid. You cant honestly think a reprint of black lotus would be fair? Chrome mox is the fairest it will get in terms of 0 drop mana engines. Anything more than that is just going to break the game even more than legacy already is
By far the most fun and skilled method of playing is limited in my opinion. You may not want to invest in standard but you should at least do a couple drafts. Especially with the newest set, its really fun to draft. Playing sealed is a little more luck based but still really intense.
2) There are a LOT of ways to beat legacy combo decks, it all depends on which combo deck, tbh (there are a looooooooot of them). Counterspells aren't even THAT bad for combo (again, depending on the combo deck. For High Tide it's fairly easy to overcome, for belcher, countrspells are a *****). You just make them discard all of them first (I run 7 1 drop targeted discard pre-board, and 2-3 more after sideboarding, in addition to xantid swarms and/or orim's chant/silence. depending on how much sideboard space I feel I need devoted to counter heavy decks). The problem is the decks that have both a solid number of counterspells AND a fast clock. Which is not that common. If they don't have a clock, I just sit their can tripping into a perfect hand while making them discard, until I get rid of all their counters, or until I can go off through their counters. Usually not a big rush, don't have to go off fast vs a deck which wont kill you until turn 15 or something.
Other ways are to play cards like Leyline of sanctity, forcing me to bounce it before I can tendrils you, or I could just empty the warrens, but then you have a turn to clear the tokens away, which isn't all that unlikely.
Or play discard, therapy/duress/inquisition of kozilek/thoughtseize their hand to pieces. 4/5 decks I played against yesterday were combo decks and that's my plan against them (I 2-0'd all of them, so I guess that works). I did also get a little innovative once vs a belcher which was going off turn 1. Belcher doesn't play counterspells, so I let him play 2 mana ramping spells, then when he went to use it on a third, I played orim's chant and he fizzled after having essentially thrown away most of his hand. I then duressed him the following turn and he never really recovered.
Another strategy is to combo off first.. I guess that's also my strategy. Game 1 vs an Omni-Tell deck I gitaxian probe'd him turn 1, saw no counters in hand, and proceeded to kill him that turn. Granted, that's a pretty nuts hand. That combined with the fact Legacy land bases/spells like gitaxian probe and Ad Nauseum deal a lot of damage to the player using them really quickly means a lot of time Legacy aggro decks can race the combo (they're pretty damn fast), especially if they are running a few disruption spells to keep me off for an extra turn or 2. Dredge is kind of combo itself, it can win turn 1-3 pretty consistently, with therapies attacking combo players' hand. Enchantress can confinement lock the opposing combo player out as early as turn 2, and post board they have leyline of singularity as well.
So yeah, there's a bunch of ways to beat combo. Also. Legacy comboing is not as straightforward as in modern/ext/t2. You often do have to combo off while playing around daze, force spike, or a lot of times even force of will. The number of options available to people playing my combo decks at any given point during the combo are numerous, and with all the decisions you have to make about how exactly you want to go about comboing off, and being sure to have extra mana floating at all times to pay for daze and whatnot. There's a lot of decisions you have to make, I do not just combo off the same way every game. I can't. The path changes depending on what you've got in hand, and what you're dealing with. Luckily my deck has many ways of combing off, but it's very easy to make a mistake at some point and **** yourself. It happens to players all the time.
It's not just that T2 rite of flame-> rite of flame->rite of flame->dragonstorm straightforward stuff. (I did kill someone turn 1 in a standard tourney with Dragonstorm once, one of my favorite moments ever while playing magic.)
Even picking WHICH combo deck is the right one to play for the meta is a difficult task. At the tourney last night there were 6 unique (and all viable) combo decks between 7 combo players. Plus LED Dredge, which I almost consider combo... Because it really is.
My deck was sort of netdecked, in that it was an established archetype, however I made a number of alterations, allowing for a more diverse manabase, and more disruption (as I expected a heavy control/combo field), as opposed to just, "shove as many combo accelerators in this ***** as possible." Which is a better idea vs a field of aggro.
I read the field correctly, and chose an appropriate design for a combo deck tailored to the metagame at hand. It paid off. Next week I might switch to my manaless ichorid or LED dredge deck, depending on what I think people will be running.
Legacy's variety, and unsurpassed plethora of options in deck construction, with an absurd number of different tech choices available for most decks gives people a lot of choice. And the more choice you have, the more opportunities you have to make or break your own success. Can be good or bad.
3) I'm sorry, but you apparently thought I was talking about the banned list. (or maybe the vintage restricted list?)
No.
The Ban List is the list banning cards in various formats, the Restricted List is the list of cards in vintage that you may only use one copy of in your deck, and the Reserve List is part of one of the biggest missteps the DCI ever made. It's a list of cards that can NEVER be reprinted. It was created after Anthologies was released, adding a bunch of extra copies of previously extremely hard to find cards into circulation. This caused the prices of the cards to crash, and collectors were furious at all the money they had just lost due to card availability inflation.
The DCI responds by apologizing, realizing they had just flooded the market with those cards too fast. To assuage collectors fears about this happening again, they created the Reserve List. Any card on this list can't be re-released.
I'm surprised you don't know about the list, as Aaron Forsythe has gone on the record over and over again essentially attributing the creation of Modern to this very list. They wanted to have Legacy be more affordable,
but with some of the cards their hands are tied. So they created a new eternal format, not as a replacement to Legacy, but as an eternal format that newer players could break into, without the intimidation of the $100+ price tags. This they hoped to achieve by continually reprinting all modern staples. I'm sure you've heard by now about Modern Masters though, so I'll end this tangent here.
4) Chrome Mox is definitely NOT the best 0 mana accelerator in Legacy. There is more than one, but for arguments sake. LED (Lion's Eye Diamond) is about 4 million times more useful and integral to legacy than chrome mox. Chrome mox getting banned would do literally nothing to the format's metagame. Banning LED would be HUGE. LED Dredge, Belcher, TES, ANT, Doomsday, and about 8 other "top" decks would all be in a lot of trouble. In fact, next to Force of Will, it may be the second most format defining card.
There's a reason Chrome Mox is only worth ~$10, and LED is worth $60-70.
5) I do draft. I'm going to one in... 12 hours actually. There is without a doubt a LOT of skill involved, I agree. It's very different skills which are tested than those of constructed formats however.
6) Going to sleep now, waking up and stopping by the dinin hall, then heading to the local cardshop. No classes on Fridays. Gonna be a good day.
Marco, I would actually be interested in hearing about if EL has any type of regular Legacy scene. I might try to make it out there if they have solid sized tourneys. Could you ask the guy behind the counter at the shop(s) there? coo'.
Also. I'd be more than down to play T2 as well if somebody had a spare deck I could play.
Alsoalso. I would be SO down to go to the next Starcity event nearby with T2 and Legacy. I know there are a number coming up in OH and IN. Me and rsr may hit one up together, I'll let you know if we make any legit plans.
Sorry for these massive walls of text everyone. As you can see, I'm back in full on M:tG motivation mode. Which is kind of a scary thought for my social life.. and my wallet.
JTsm
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,230
I laughed pretty hard at this.
Gifts
¡Me gusta tejer!
Sneak and show, best deck of all time soz.
SoulPech
Smash Master
*drunk. Close though
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
I'll learn magic with u roller
Although I refuse to play decks that aren't majority green.
#forevercasual
Another thing you may be interested in would be teaching me to use your best deck well enough to win the MTG tourny at youma, if i were to win I'd give you 50% of the winnings, and If I lose you'd lose nothing.
Although I refuse to play decks that aren't majority green.
#forevercasual
Another thing you may be interested in would be teaching me to use your best deck well enough to win the MTG tourny at youma, if i were to win I'd give you 50% of the winnings, and If I lose you'd lose nothing.
As long as you remember that he didn't deserve to beat you you'll be fine
kd-
Smash Lord
The Big MI MtG Discussion Topic
What's The Point
Smash Master
It appears nobody uses the game room anymore. I work on Friday for once but I go down there and no mass of asians.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I kinda wanna Smash today.
Dre the Ace
Smash Ace
This tread just got awesome.