The Brawl Debate Compendium (arguments welcome)

[Samochan]

Edit: It isn't that hard of a game to learn. Play as Snake, Meta, or some other good character. XD Seriously, the game takes little game knoweledge (outside of spacing.....), little tech skill, and any mistake you make has little consequences for the most part. So....just out think everyone and pick counters. lol

I agree to this, but I don't like to use meta for starters cause I wouldn't learn anything new but button smashing, lol. I'm also trying to get the hang of zelda's bair and fair sweetspot placing, but doesn't seem to be the tip anymore... <_<; But I'm testing everyone still to find suitable chars for myself and expanding mah game knowledge. :3

 

[Testament27]

i think if we all look closely, we can see history repeating itself for a different game. When street fighter II was officially succeeded when street fighter III came out, many pros said "Not I" to sfIII and continued their Street fighter II careers. both were different although at their core very similar. eventually the street fighter scene diverged and one competitive scene became two. (Although this may be reconciled with the upcoming Street fighter 4, which will be awesome btw el fuerte ftw)

Not to compare street fighter to smash, or to give the impression that they have equal levels of depth or whatever, or to sound like a scrub in general, but I can see one of two things happening. Option A: The anti-brawlers will eventually go the way of the dodo as the pro 64 crowd did. Option B: Our competitive community will have 2 crowds, melee and brawl.

Personally, I am pro brawl. I was there for melee's finest moments, and have seen the pinnacle of its play. (EVO 2k7 was awesome). Despite this, I wanted something new, and I was given Brawl. It has its flaws, im not saying the game is perfect. It is very campy. However, this should not be the reason someone turns from brawl. Street fighter III is A VERY CAMPY GAME. Despite its campiness, it has etched itself into the highest levels of play and its fanbase is very expansive. Even 10 years after its creation, sf III continues to thrive. (Back on topic) Brawl is very different. It lacks the capacity for combos, which played a large role in melee's strategy. But once again, this is a different game. We have all heard the cliche Melee 2.0 ≠ Brawl. Plain and simple. To each his own. To those that hate brawl and would prefer melee, I harbor no ill will against thee. ITs what you enjoy, go do it. I still love melee as well, but i wanted something different, I wanted a new adventure. Brawl is my game, and I will take with it all of its flaws. As for the whole backwards progression thing, i think only time will tell.

THE BOTTOMLINE: DO WHAT YOU WANT AND STOP MAKING BRAWL VS MELEE THREADS.

400th post ftw

 

[dinhotheone]

to you and everyone else that says melee is inferior: its not the speed of your fingers that makes you a winner in brawl, now, hours and hours of tech practice doesnt go as far, neither does combo practicing. in brawl, its your mind against his, not your hours of practice against his. so to you all you, who were above average melee players, who honed skills with rigorous work, who do not like the fact that in brawl a smarter player can beat you with less work, i say to you this: im sorry, im sorry your mindgames suck, now please shut up.

 

[Testament27]

to you and everyone else that says melee is inferior: its not the speed of your fingers that makes you a winner in brawl, now, hours and hours of tech practice doesnt go as far, neither does combo practicing. in brawl, its your mind against his, not your hours of practice against his. so to you all you, who were above average melee players, who honed skills with rigorous work, who do not like the fact that in brawl a smarter player can beat you with less work, i say to you this: im sorry, im sorry your mindgames suck, now please shut up.

qft sadly

 

[Psiklone]

I feel that you going from Sakurai's quote on the removal of L-cancelling and wavedashing directly to "not a fighting game" (or whatever) is a really big jump.

Maybe he said "level the playing field" not because he wanted newbies to beat pros (on occasion) but because he didn't want the gap between newbie and pro to be so large. In Melee, no matter how long a person has played (with human players), they will not beat someone who can wavedash effectively. The removal of these "advanced techniques" made the difference between someone who had practiced many hours playing and someone who had practiced many hours glitching far less pronounced. I'm not saying I can read his mind, but maybe that's how Sakurai "leveled the playing field."

Also, I'm surprised Melee made it competitively with hoe unbalanced the characters are. One perk about Brawl is that no matter what character you pick (with some exceptions) you have a good chance of winning. I am still utterly amazed at how, in Melee, Falco is faster, stronger, and has more range then Kirby, and Marth is faster, stronger, and has more range then Mewtwo.

 

[Spellman]

Might as well post my "argument" if you can call it that, albeit it doesn't really say a whole lot for either side.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. There are many facts flying around that can't be disputed about Brawl. For example:

• There is little hit stun.
• Floaty nature of the game makes combo's few and far between.
• It's a little slower, or a great deal slower depending on how you measure speed.
• Advanced techniques like wave dashing and L cancelling aren't prominent and/or have been removed completely.
• Tripping...

All these things make Brawl a very different game from Melee. That is all. All these facts can be used for either side of the debate. Some people believe that the slower pace gives people a little more time to think, and the lack of super moves leaves for more variety. Some people believe that the speed of the game makes mind games much less effective, and the lack of super moves keeps top players and new players from being separated. Yes, I understand that a game as shallow as tic-tac-toe or pawn-only chess suck competitively. However, there is undeniably more depth to Brawl then those weak examples. So what we have here is a different game. It's unfortunate that not all Melee fans can appreciate the changes that Brawl has made, but it's not completely unreasonable considering the drastic game play changes.

Same facts are being used to enforce both sides of the argument.

People are playing this game in tournaments, so that's a hint that people feel the game is competitive. Call it new release fever if you want to, but it's happening. That's because people *like* playing this game for skill. Saying that the competitive aspect of Brawl is bad or even saying it is insulting to the people who do play it competitively; it's like saying people who play Bowling are playing a non-competitive game, just because you don't like to play it. However, that doesn't mean you're not allowed to dislike it. It's not for everyone, that's understandable.

It's a different competitive experience for different people. Even tripping, as awful as it may seem to everyone, Brawl supporter and critic alike, has arguments and evidence supporting how it can be played in the competitive scene. As with any random element based on probability, I use Poker as an example. Competitive Poker has a champion, and it's the most probability based game of them all, but if you play the odds, you can come out on top, just by knowing what might happen. The game is never decided by one hand unless you play foolishly.

For the most part, all this arguing is just driving people further away from each other, Brawl supporters are becoming hell-bent on proving anything or just ending the discussion completely, and Brawl debaters are viciously throwing logic and facts at a situation that is completely subjective. Facts are facts, but you can have opinions on whether those facts are good and bad. And since they're all based on the game being more or less fun or more or less competitive, it's not going anywhere, because what's fun for one person may not be for another.

I seen the 1UP show where Gimpyfish, Nealdt and Hugs discussed the game and weren't too impressed with the changes, that's fine and all, they know what they're talking about. It was a pretty good interview, I enjoyed it even though I'm supporting Brawl, they showed off some cool tricks too. They're not viciously out to crush peoples thoughts on the game though from my understanding. They're not overflowing the forums with the same old stuff over and over again. Seriously, it's hard for people who play Brawl to come here now to this board because it's such a drag reading everybody dragging the game down. You know how frustrating it is when someone comes along and says: "Items on, all stages" is the only skilled way to play? That's how it feels with Brawl and Melee when someone comes along and says Melee is the only skilled way to play. That's why everyone is so angry; and throwing down these blanket statements that for some reason every one concentrates on exclusively. This compendium is going to have every lame statement that's ever been made even though you know full well that they're not even worth calling an argument.

I think instead of arguing this any further, actually making a real attempt to mend the community that is parting further and further apart must be done, in ways that don't involve this silly argument, because really, cataloging the whole thing and putting it on a pedestal like this is ridiculous, like, thanks for giving us a place to read about a month of frustration. Now we are all going to know who is right and who is wrong, not. Now we know what has already been said and not to say it again, not. However, if you want to finish it, that's O.K. I guess, I never like to leave a job unfinished, but I'd like to see an end to all this sometime this lifetime.

We've all gotten our venting out for the most part I think. Get some self control and just not let every little comment get to us. I'm mentally exhausted from it all and like many others have been concentrating my attention elsewhere, but I'd like to stick around here too. I'm just spent with all this going around in circles.

 

[Psiklone]

I know it's hipocritical (hypocritical? w/e) of me to say it considering my last post, but Spellman's speech made me very happy

 

[Rhubarbo]

Brawl will be PLAYED competitvely, but it has less options than Melee thus requiring less skill. In this case the more skill is required is synonymous with how competitive it is. End of story here.

To Spellman: The reason people are constantly bit*hing is because many people devoted God knows how much time to the pre-analysis of this game, like podcasts, prediction threads and more. When it turns out to be worse than a 6 year old game, you have every right to be pissed.

 

[Spellman]

Brawl will be PLAYED competitvely, but it has less options than Melee thus requiring less skill. In this case the more skill is required is synonymous with how competitive it is. End of story here.

Look, some people believe that removing some options actually opened up more viable options. But if you don't think so, that's O.K. Anyways, that's not the point.

To Spellman: The reason people are constantly bit*hing is because many people devoted God knows how much time to the pre-analysis of this game, like podcasts, prediction threads and more. When it turns out to be worse than a 6 year old game, you have every right to be pissed.

You're right, let both just be pissed... forever, and let the whole world know about it... forever.. again and again. Getting madder and madder at people not seeing it our way. Until our fingers fall off.

 

[Oscular]

The only reason I like Brawl is because I'm good at it. And no, it's not because Brawl is easier to play (even though it is), it's because I was so late to the SSBM scene (when I discovered what wavedashing was, Ken was already a pro). SSBM for me was just plain, comboless fights. So I'm hoping that I can make it better in Brawl (which I think I'm doing well).

 

[Rhubarbo]

You make a valid point. I'll have to move on from the disappointment that was Brawl. First the roster was kind of a kick in the crotch, after I got away from that the gameplay pissed me off. Mario Kart Wii is coming, there is the Halo 3 map pack out tomorrow, and I'm sure Nintendo has some great new game at this E3. As I await these games, Melee awaits in my GCN.

 

[Dime]

The questions that should be asked here are:

Why do Melee players need to tell Brawl players that brawl is inferior?
Why do Brawl players feel the need to justify their reasons for liking the game?
Is there any point to Brawl vs. Melee debates?
What outcome do Melee player want from these debates?
What outcome do Brawl players want from these debates?
Or is all pointless fanboyism?

 

[RDK]

To Spellman: The reason people are constantly bit*hing is because many people devoted God knows how much time to the pre-analysis of this game, like podcasts, prediction threads and more. When it turns out to be worse than a 6 year old game, you have every right to be pissed.

This this this.

But people, don't get me wrong. I don't hate Brawl; I enjoy playing it with my Melee friends, and I'm not just *****ing about it because I suck at it or something. Like it's been said before--players who were good at Melee are going to be good at Brawl. Brawl is more mindgame-oriented then technicality-oriented, and I've adapted to that, as has probably everyone here.

I'll continue playing Brawl, if not only because Melee will most likely be replaced by it. MLG is already starting a paid Brawl ladder, so that's probably where all the action is going to be.

My whole point was that Brawl didn't reach its competitive potential because of the nasty little quirks that Sakurai put in. If it weren't for that, Brawl could've been the best game EVER.

It's just disappointing.

 

[The Executive]

This this this.

But people, don't get me wrong. I don't hate Brawl; I enjoy playing it with my Melee friends, and I'm not just *****ing about it because I suck at it or something. Like it's been said before--players who were good at Melee are going to be good at Brawl. Brawl is more mindgame-oriented then technicality-oriented, and I've adapted to that, as has probably everyone here.

I'll continue playing Brawl, if not only because Melee will most likely be replaced by it. MLG is already starting a paid Brawl ladder, so that's probably where all the action is going to be.

My whole point was that Brawl didn't reach its competitive potential because of the nasty little quirks that Sakurai put in. If it weren't for that, Brawl could've been the best game EVER.

It's just disappointing.

Sakurai giveth, and Sakurai taketh away.

I want to say he ruined his own creation on his way out the door; hopefully whoever picks up the reins for SSB4 if it ever happens has an iota of a notion as to what made Melee sell and takes steps in that direction.

By the way, isn't it kind of self-defeat to post a thread on the Brawl boards looking for intelligent thought, let alone a debate? I now know why Crimson King calls this a cruel place.

 

[RDK]

I suppose I still thought there were a good number of intelligent people left in the Brawl Boards. But alas.

 

[Dime]

I suppose I still thought there were a good number of intelligent people left in the Brawl Boards. But alas.

Remember me? I’m still here and I think your great!

.... Still waiting for some answers though.

 

[RDK]

The questions that should be asked here are:

Why do Melee players need to tell Brawl players that brawl is inferior?
Why do Brawl players feel the need to justify their reasons for liking the game?
Is there any point to Brawl vs. Melee debates?
What outcome do Melee player want from these debates?
What outcome do Brawl players want from these debates?
Or is all pointless fanboyism?

1: Because a lot of pro-Brawl people are of the opinion that Brawl is competitively superior or at least as deep as Melee.
2: I never asked them to justify that. You have the right to like whatever you please.
3: Yes, it's to show people who draw erroneous conclusions about Smash that they're wrong.
4: No, it's not all pointless fanboyism. As I've stated before, I like Brawl. I just like Melee more, and think it's a technically deep game that is much more nurturing in nature to a competitive community.

 

[Dime]

Thanks. Your a cool dude.

 

[Rhubarbo]

SSB4 is definitely going to take a different approach. I hope that some underdog that has skill develops it. Game Arts=bad idea. Give Smash 4 back completely to Hal and have someone like Miyamoto direct it.

Ideally though, Sakurai could pick it up again and this time add 3 new modes: Brawl Mode, Melee Mode, Classic Smash Mode. Each of these modes would incorportate the physiscs of their name's sake. It sounds completely un-orthadox, but look at the different Street Fighter speeds.

 

[Spellman]

SSB4 is definitely going to take a different approach. I hope that some underdog that has skill develops it. Game Arts=bad idea. Give Smash 4 back completely to Hal and have someone like Miyamoto direct it.

Ideally though, Sakurai could pick it up again and this time add 3 new modes: Brawl Mode, Melee Mode, Classic Smash Mode. Each of these modes would incorportate the physiscs of their name's sake. It sounds completely un-orthadox, but look at the different Street Fighter speeds.

Miyamoto definitely has no problem with making challenging games, despite all the casual style games that have been coming out. As long as a game has fluid controls and he has enough pull to add depth or challenge to it, and Nintendo doesn't push his vision in another direction, he will.

 

[SmashChu]

1: Because a lot of pro-Brawl people are of the opinion that Brawl is competitively superior or at least as deep as Melee.
Game has been out for a few weeks. You have only had it for a few weeks. People said Melee would not work either. You don't know that, and it is NOT A FACT so don't claim it like it is.
2: I never asked them to justify that. You have the right to like whatever you please.
3: Yes, it's to show people who draw erroneous conclusions about Smash that they're wrong.
They are wrong becuase they beleive Brawl CAN be competitive?
4: No, it's not all pointless fanboyism. As I've stated before, I like Brawl. I just like Melee more, and think it's a technically deep game that is much more nurturing in nature to a competitive community.
From your signature "Brawl. What is it good for? Absolutly nothing"

Why so you fail so hard?

 

[RDK]

Addressing your statements:

1. I've already adressed this in the OP, but apparently you didn't even glance at it. I don't feel like repeating myself.
2. Brawl CAN be competitive. I never said it couldn't be. Technically speaking, fast-food eating could be competitive. All I said is that Melee is a better game from a competitive standpoint due to its depth.
3. Why do I fail so hard? Maybe you should ask yourself that question. All your arguments are tired and nonsensical.

 

[Dime]

2. Brawl CAN be competitive. I never said it couldn't be. Technically speaking, fast-food eating could be competitive.

Sorry, the post that I made here was stupid and juvenile so I changed it. I just feel like I'm having the same conversation here as I am in Scar's thread.

 

[Volrec]

In a place you only dream of
Where your soul is always free
Silver stages, golden curtains
Filled my head, plain as can be
As a rainbow grew round the sun
All the stars I've love who died
Came from somewhere beyond the scene you see
These lovely people played just for me
Now if I let you see this place
Where stories all ring true
Will you let me past your face
To see what's really you
It's not for me I ask these questions
As though I were a king
For you have to love, believe and feel
Before the burst of tamborines take you there

(chorus)
Green grass and high tides forever
Castles of stone souls and glory
Lost faces say we adore you
As kings and queens bow and play for you

Those who don't believe me
Find your souls and set them free
Those who do, believe and love
As time will be your key
Time and time again I've thanked them
For a piece of mind
They helped me find myself
Amongst the music and the rhyme
That enchants you there

(repeat chorus)

 

[Tofu Beast]

omg this IS a flame war. someone should call a mod.

wait, it was started by a mod?!

how did you even become a mod? if you hate brawl so much, wish it was never created, then why do you even come here?

i personally don't care about competitiveness. i like smash bros because it brings all these different characters into one world, and its extremely fun to play!

so are you telling me that all that time i spent checking the dojo, all that time i spent hoping my favorite characters would get in, and all that time just wanting to play it, was wasted?

if i were creating a game, i would want it balanced. i wouldn't want "NO ITEMS! FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!" because that's crap. if you wanna play like that, have brawl be COMPLETELY copetitive, then you can do that, but i personally play the game to have fun. to try to beat all of the challenges. to slaughter online. heck, even to see the history of freaking nintendo! but no. no no no. we have to play "wtf no wavedashing? wtf idc if that wasnt even a well-used AT, i still am mad that it's not in! the game is slower! zomg fox's SHFFL is like impossible now! holy crud falco is different this game SUCKS!"

well ya know what, the game is supposed to be freaking different. and it's more like smash64, which was waaaay better than melee.

so just go practice your short hops in melee while i am having fun in brawl. gosh.

He's not a Mod, he's a Debater -___-

How he became a Debater is beyond me. He clearly does not look at both sides of the issue.

BTW, Red Darkstar Kirby, Stop writing in red. It is quite irritating.

 

[Fletch]

Why so you fail so hard?

I don't think it's RDK that's failing here...

 

[RDK]

I don't think it's RDK that's failing here...

Finally--someone who understands sound arguments.

 

[SmashChu]

3. Why do I fail so hard? Maybe you should ask yourself that question. All your arguments are tired and nonsensical.

Did you not read anything I've written? Did you not read a single word? Did you not even think, for one minute, about what I wrote.

Point is:Why are you here? You don't like Brawl. You make this obvious. And here you are, trying to "educate" people you think are wrong. You're here saying pro-Brawl people are noobs (and yes, you did say that) and that they are wrong. Your opinion is extremely one sided, but this is suppose to be for debate purposes. If that was the case, why is your OP so one-sided. Why is it so biased.

It's not really whether or not Brawl is or will be competitive. It's just what is the purpose of this. I know what your going to say. "OMG Did you not read my first post. 4 discussion" but reading what you've written and your first three paragraphs, that doesn't seem to be the point.

Case and point, your here to either troll, start a flame war, boost your self esteem becuase Brawl=/=Melee or all of the three. Of just to make yourself sleep better becuase your annoyed that people think, and thusly WANT Brawl to be competitive. If that is the case, then your idea is doomed. You and Play 2 Win will die out as Brawl fads like 64 did. Perhaps that is what you fear.

Also, side note:Brawl will be competitive if people make it so. You saying it wont is not only redundant, but also hurts the community becuase your trying to keep it from advancing, and stupid becuase your delaying what could be considered inevitably.

You fail becuase you did not read my post. You fail becuase you are so one sided. You fail becuase you created a topic that is an exact duplicate to another topic that is still very active. You fail becuase you are so anti-Brawl and yet you post in a Brawl forum (that's up there on the hurp de durp scale). But most of all, you fail becuase you fail to see this (that and your in Play 2 Win).

 

[RDK]

I like how Brawl Boards noobs make it a point to stir up drama where there is none.

Did you not read anything I've written? Did you not read a single word? Did you not even think, for one minute, about what I wrote.

Yeah, I did. You wrote nothing but ridiculous arguments.

Point is:Why are you here? You don't like Brawl. You make this obvious. And here you are, trying to "educate" people you think are wrong. You're here saying pro-Brawl people are noobs (and yes, you did say that) and that they are wrong. Your opinion is extremely one sided, but this is suppose to be for debate purposes. If that was the case, why is your OP so one-sided. Why is it so biased.

It only looks biased to you because you take offense to anyone and everyone challenging Brawl. And besides, you should stop bringing up crap about it being one-sided, as I have yet to have anyone come in here wanting to add anything pro-Brawl to the OP. I would have added something myself, but I haven't seen one good argument against what I already have put up. If you'd like to contribute, please do so instead of whining and attacking people.

It's not really whether or not Brawl is or will be competitive. It's just what is the purpose of this. I know what your going to say. "OMG Did you not read my first post. 4 discussion" but reading what you've written and your first three paragraphs, that doesn't seem to be the point.

Case and point, your here to either troll, start a flame war, boost your self esteem becuase Brawl=/=Melee or all of the three. Of just to make yourself sleep better becuase your annoyed that people think, and thusly WANT Brawl to be competitive. If that is the case, then your idea is doomed. You and Play 2 Win will die out as Brawl fads like 64 did. Perhaps that is what you fear.

Not really. I'm already ranked on Gamebattles. I'm good at Brawl, because I worked hard and was good at Melee. I've adapted, just like all other decent Melee players. I'm in no way fearful of dying out. I'm just trying to point out the obvious flaws in most pro-Brawl arguments.

Also, side note:Brawl will be competitive if people make it so. You saying it wont is not only redundant, but also hurts the community becuase your trying to keep it from advancing, and stupid becuase your delaying what could be considered inevitably.

When did I ever say Brawl won't be competitive? Read any of my recent posts before hauling off and accusing me of **** I didn't do.

I merely said Brawl is competitively inferior to Melee, not that it can't be competitive at all.

You fail becuase you did not read my post.

I could say the exact same thing about you. And yes, I did read your post. How else could I have responded?

And I'm not even going to respond to the last paragraph, as this has turned into a flame battle instead of intelligent discussion. Obviously you can't make any good arguments without insulting someone first.

 

[Fletch]

Score one for RDK