shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Glad to hear it. Look forward to hearing your opinions
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The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April
- Thread starter Almas
- Start date
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lamelikemike
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 39
im not sure the context he planned on using it in, but i have started using the PSI magnet to replicate fox's shine spike. of course it is only viable against characters like, fox, falco, diddy, and other characters who pause before their recovery moves go into effect. im not sure if anyone else is doing it, but its probably the only thing that keeps me playing lucas.
Eaode
Smash Champion
I second the Squirtle no-drown motion
I'm not against him getting buffs. I'm just trying to determine if there's an alternative before I see the reasoning . Plus, I don't think lowering the lag on the end of grab will really help that much. The problem in the realm of shield grabs is not really that they're punishable. It's that they have the chance of missing at all. They come out slow enough that most characters can interrupt or spot dodge them before they come out. Making harder to punish by a few frames won't change the fact that it'll be punished if predicted.
I like PSI Magnet as an attack. Sure it's not great, and certainly not a spammable thing, but I can get good semi-spikes if I fit it into the right places.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Request it in the non competitive b+ thread thingy
Ulevo
Smash Master
Ah, wasn't aware of that. Thank you Kupo.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Both the grabber and grabbee have the same number of frames of time they are in grab release stun. Bowser is the exception being 7 frames faster when he is the grabber.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I take it nobody liked my Idea 
Yesterday, Cape I and others were talking about falco and his "no laser cap"
Seriously, he should have a laser cap, he is so god dam campy and still has some of the best **** combos in the game.
Falco needs laser cap...
In addition, Fox's laser cap should probably be lengthened a little.
Not only would these be more than fair but it might actually make "bridge of Eldin" a viable counterpick and I like that stage and its kick *** music.
Although I'm sure much of that has alrady been said....
Seriously, he should have a laser cap, he is so god dam campy and still has some of the best **** combos in the game.
Falco needs laser cap...
In addition, Fox's laser cap should probably be lengthened a little.
Not only would these be more than fair but it might actually make "bridge of Eldin" a viable counterpick and I like that stage and its kick *** music.
Although I'm sure much of that has alrady been said....
GamerGuitarist7
Smash Champion
i think the f zero carts on Port Town should be nerfed heavily to make that stage a counterpick.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'm not against Falco getting a laser cap, but in my eyes and experience he can get out camped by many of the characters. As is my typical response, figuring it works and we have space I'll test it and probably approve it.
shadowtroop
Smash Ace
Eaode
Smash Champion
Falco's lasers define him. I dont think we should just go nerfing them like that until they are proven to be broken (which I dont believe they are)
Melee falco's laser was just as if not more ridiculous, and he had even more **** combos and a **** TRUE spike that didn't sourspot. All of that and he was still 4th on the final tier list.
Melee falco's laser was just as if not more ridiculous, and he had even more **** combos and a **** TRUE spike that didn't sourspot. All of that and he was still 4th on the final tier list.
The Cape
Smash Master
Its not the nature of the lasers that seems to be the issues, its the range on them. They do good damage and stun, but they also have limitless range. At this point they seem to be the only reason why Bridge of Eldin would still be banned. Eldin is a great counter pick because it allows the tether chars like Olimar and Ivysaur to do their on the stage destruction without having to worry about their crappy recoveries.
In the interest of making more stages viable, this might be something to consider.
In the interest of making more stages viable, this might be something to consider.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Bridge of Eldin will never be legal. All it takes is a character to sit there and camp until the character comes close enough to be back thrown off stage for a stock.
That said, you are suggesting we nerf an aspect of a character that hasn't proven to be a problem in regular Brawl, or shown signs of posing a problem in Brawl+. Specifically an aspect of that character that defines them. Even if a laser cap were to be implemented, I do not see what it would prove to accomplish unless the lasers were really short in distance they can cover, in which case you're deliberately nerfing a character for no good reason.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
that
no need to nerf characters if they aren't top tier, and we can't even tell anything about tiers until we play brawl+ more so we should play, develop a meta game, and then see who needs nerfs. buffs are one thing, nerfs are another, unless it's an obvious infinite etc.
although more viable stages does sound nice...
it's something to consider.
The Cape
Smash Master
Thing is. Give Falco a laser cap similar to the one Fox has now. It in no way nerfs the character except it takes away his ability to full screen camp you. Not really a nerf to his playstyle, but helps to open stages up.
Eldin is a fine stage, and sure you can camp the edges if you want, but there are plenty of ways around that and it can be used against you.
Eldin is a fine stage, and sure you can camp the edges if you want, but there are plenty of ways around that and it can be used against you.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
that's very true, any Falco mains speak up.
Cape has a point about it not changing the effectiveness of his lasers, This could lower camping without leaving him defenseless.
I like it.
Cape has a point about it not changing the effectiveness of his lasers, This could lower camping without leaving him defenseless.
I like it.
If you were going to allow 1 walk off stage be a viable tourney counter pick Eldin would be it. almost no stage hazards compared to other stages. and if frozen is completely good as it has no hazards.
Just because you don't like walk offs means nothing. And games WON'T take forever now that it is frozen it and the bridge never blows up. That was the main argument in VB but if the bridge never blows up. This stage isn't actually that campy Just a walk off version of FD which stands as a neutral right now.
Just because you don't like walk offs means nothing. And games WON'T take forever now that it is frozen it and the bridge never blows up. That was the main argument in VB but if the bridge never blows up. This stage isn't actually that campy Just a walk off version of FD which stands as a neutral right now.
Eaode
Smash Champion
I dont see falco camping being that big a deal, there are ways around it especially with Brawl's better airdodge. ESPECIALLY if momentum capture is used and carries through an AD.
if eldin were a CP at all it'd be a CP that was borderline banned. A counterpick SHOULD give you a good advantage (like falco having more camping options).
As a Melee player that can get around Falco's lasers in THAT game (as Falcon), which are much better than in Brawl, I really can't see a nerf to falco's lasers in Brawl(+) being necessary at all.
if eldin were a CP at all it'd be a CP that was borderline banned. A counterpick SHOULD give you a good advantage (like falco having more camping options).
As a Melee player that can get around Falco's lasers in THAT game (as Falcon), which are much better than in Brawl, I really can't see a nerf to falco's lasers in Brawl(+) being necessary at all.
You forget there were only 3 reasons the Back Room banned this stage.
1. Chaingrabs
This is the primary reason the stage was banned (we removed them in B+)
2. Blubba blew up the stage (we fixed that)
This was a problem because games took too long and it turned into camp matches.
3. No cap on Rob/Falco lasers. (Rob is okay as its not as spammable but Falcos SHDL got better in B+)
Whether you like it or not, because of these changes this stage has become much more viable and this would really help it without hurting falcos game on any other stage.
This is almost a viable stage as is.......deal with it.
1. Chaingrabs
This is the primary reason the stage was banned (we removed them in B+)
2. Blubba blew up the stage (we fixed that)
This was a problem because games took too long and it turned into camp matches.
3. No cap on Rob/Falco lasers. (Rob is okay as its not as spammable but Falcos SHDL got better in B+)
Whether you like it or not, because of these changes this stage has become much more viable and this would really help it without hurting falcos game on any other stage.
This is almost a viable stage as is.......deal with it.
The Cape
Smash Master
Falco camping on Eldin is so unfair haha. 3 screens away pew pew.
Also, walk off for Mario Circuit is a good CP. Cars are weak and dont hurt, or we could freeze and not worry about them.
Also, walk off for Mario Circuit is a good CP. Cars are weak and dont hurt, or we could freeze and not worry about them.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
frozen stages allows for so many more competative arenas, many of them subtly different.
sure you can get past the lasers maybe, but most would agree it gives a heavy advantage. Without it that's another level.
I like the idea of all these levels being tournament viable via freezing, it gives the game a fresh feeling.
sure you can get past the lasers maybe, but most would agree it gives a heavy advantage. Without it that's another level.
I like the idea of all these levels being tournament viable via freezing, it gives the game a fresh feeling.
Eaode
Smash Champion
i dont mind making eldin more viable but I really dont like the idea of capping falco's lasers. The cap on fox's is one of my most secret little pet peeves about brawl-- it's stupid and unnecessary.
I really don't believe that Falco laser camping is broken. I know we (the community) are in control of the project and can get rid of these annoying things, but a cap on falco's lasers would be soo lame <_>
I really don't believe that Falco laser camping is broken. I know we (the community) are in control of the project and can get rid of these annoying things, but a cap on falco's lasers would be soo lame <_>
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Counterpicks are supposed to give advantages, and I don't think Falco's lasers should be capped either.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Here's my view on capping falco's lasers:
On most stages, he doesn't need this. At all. It would be nerfing him for no reason, essentially. However, if it is being done specifically for the purpose of opening up a level like bridge of eldin, then I think it could be done feasibly without hurting his game on other stages. As long as his lasers are made so that they can still fire the length of all other legal stages, then this won't hurt his game on any of those stages, while limiting him slightly on the bridge of eldin, which is the only place where it actually needs to be limited at all.
I think that if anything, we should actually be looking into removing the distance cap on fox's and wolf's lasers.
Oh, and one more thing about bridge of eldin... freezing it won't fix it. You need a special code in order to stop the moblin king from appearing, which is some 10-12 lines iirc.
On most stages, he doesn't need this. At all. It would be nerfing him for no reason, essentially. However, if it is being done specifically for the purpose of opening up a level like bridge of eldin, then I think it could be done feasibly without hurting his game on other stages. As long as his lasers are made so that they can still fire the length of all other legal stages, then this won't hurt his game on any of those stages, while limiting him slightly on the bridge of eldin, which is the only place where it actually needs to be limited at all.
I think that if anything, we should actually be looking into removing the distance cap on fox's and wolf's lasers.
Oh, and one more thing about bridge of eldin... freezing it won't fix it. You need a special code in order to stop the moblin king from appearing, which is some 10-12 lines iirc.
Whatever we already have the code.
And the cap I am thinking about wouldn't really hurt him on any other stages. I was thinking around 1.35-1.5X the length of FD. which hurts him on NO other stage but makes eldin much more viable....
O and just to be clear this is not a slippery slope. In no way would I ever propose caping pits arrows or robs laser.
They are much easier to get around and don't need to be dealt with.
And the cap I am thinking about wouldn't really hurt him on any other stages. I was thinking around 1.35-1.5X the length of FD. which hurts him on NO other stage but makes eldin much more viable....
O and just to be clear this is not a slippery slope. In no way would I ever propose caping pits arrows or robs laser.
They are much easier to get around and don't need to be dealt with.
Eaode
Smash Champion
what would be the point then? The lasers would still cover MOST of BoE, so you could take refuge close to the other KO boundaries. You're still going to have to approach through the laser eventually, and Falco can just move over a bit. I mean it would help a little I guess, as there's less laser to go through, but I still don't see the need. I don't see why giving Falco a good CP stage if we were to legalize Eldin would be so bad.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
it would still be good, just not ****.
I don't really agree with capping Falco's lasers; I say this as he's one of my mains (and I'm not simply looking out for my best interest, of course).
I understand that we want BoE to be viable and all but...a counterpick is a CP for a reason right? Falco can choose this for the entire reason of being able to laser spam, and when an opponent sees the other player is stuck with Falco, he can choose not to play on BoE.
Second thing, it's not even close to making Falco broken in any way. His SHDL and FHTL is pretty good, of course, because it allows for him to control you both defensively and while making an approach, but that's a key component of his style. Many times I'll smash an opponent off the side from one end, then laser the off-stage opponent (using the new momentum code) while making my way over to the other side for an edgeguard. Caps limit and possibly prevent this on larger stages.
Also, as somebody went over, Falco had way better laser spam in Melee. SHL was completely dominant and Falco could camp on simple stages like FD (Forward vs Isai, anyone?), yet he was still fourth on the tier list with other things better than Brawl+ Falco. Without tourney results and specific evidence from these that its his lasers which make him broken, I think it's completely unnecessary and a waste of coding.
Take the stupid caps off of Fox's and Wolf's lasers instead.
I understand that we want BoE to be viable and all but...a counterpick is a CP for a reason right? Falco can choose this for the entire reason of being able to laser spam, and when an opponent sees the other player is stuck with Falco, he can choose not to play on BoE.
Second thing, it's not even close to making Falco broken in any way. His SHDL and FHTL is pretty good, of course, because it allows for him to control you both defensively and while making an approach, but that's a key component of his style. Many times I'll smash an opponent off the side from one end, then laser the off-stage opponent (using the new momentum code) while making my way over to the other side for an edgeguard. Caps limit and possibly prevent this on larger stages.
Also, as somebody went over, Falco had way better laser spam in Melee. SHL was completely dominant and Falco could camp on simple stages like FD (Forward vs Isai, anyone?), yet he was still fourth on the tier list with other things better than Brawl+ Falco. Without tourney results and specific evidence from these that its his lasers which make him broken, I think it's completely unnecessary and a waste of coding.
Take the stupid caps off of Fox's and Wolf's lasers instead.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
it's really not about him being broken, and as stated this probably won't change his game AT ALL on most all stages, just BoE. Which makes sense, he'd still have a laser advantage, just not as great as one and all other stages would be unaffected.
I think this is just setting off a lot of alarms in people's heads, even I posted against it at first but it's true, this isn't about him being broken as a character, nor nerfing him as a character but simply making an alteration that affects one level to make it more viable. Note that he'll still have that advantage on that stage, just not as great.
I think this is just setting off a lot of alarms in people's heads, even I posted against it at first but it's true, this isn't about him being broken as a character, nor nerfing him as a character but simply making an alteration that affects one level to make it more viable. Note that he'll still have that advantage on that stage, just not as great.
kupo15
Smash Hero
oh god, wolf's would be murder! Slow, forever lasting flinch lasers would suck horribly!!
zxeon
Smash Lord
Those lasers pigeon hole Falco (hahaha no pun intended) but there is no need to fix what isn't broken. I think Storm has the right idea on BoE.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I have to agree with this. Even if the lasers can only cover half of Eldin, it's not much of a difference.
Why?
Even with full length lasers, a good player will be able to close the distance. If Falco is trying to camp, he will gradually move back until he reaches the walk off. He will then have to escape to the other side or settle for CQC. When the match starts, you are within one screen of Falco. You're not going to let him get the entire distance of Eldin away from you to start camping. It's seriously not that difficult to get through lasers with a combination of full hop, short hop, air dodge, and even crawling in some characters' cases. So in any case, you will be within or close to within one screen of Falco at all times. Even if you die, you spawn in the middle, and Falco can only get half of Eldin for separation. In no cases should Falco ever be a full Eldin away from any competent player.
Now, if the lasers are capped to only one screen distance, what changes? Only the fact that Falco has to stay within one screen when camping. If the Falco is any good at all at camping, he can easily stay within one screen and still camp you until the walk off. Now look at the above scenario that I just described, in which a good player should always be within one screen anyway. This situation remains unchanged for any competent level of play. Your going to be fighting within one screen whether the lasers are capped or not. Unless you are some sort of sloth, Falco should never be more than half of Eldin away from you. If he does get that far, it's completely your fault and not the stages. You either got heavily predicted, or were trying to camp yourself.
The moral of this story is that capping Falco's lasers will do little to make Eldin viable. People already camp effectively on small stages with way less room (the fact that we even enforce a time limit is testament to this). Any worthy player will maintain a distance comparable to any small stage despite Eldin's size. The size makes no difference in the big picture. The only problematic features of Eldin are it's walk offs and hazards.
Got to agree with kupo on that 1.
Thats like having Toon Links arrows last forever and go in a straight line.
Okay imagine this....Falco is doing his SHDL (which is now even faster in B+) and retreating. You finally get close to him with a character. (lets pretend its Link/ganon/Samus for lolz) or another moderate speed character.
Falco does his forward B and runs to the other side of the stage to continue his laser spam
Besides, I believe there WAS a cap in melee. It was around the size of hyrule temple. I want to bring something like that back. Melee had it right....
Thats like having Toon Links arrows last forever and go in a straight line.
Okay imagine this....Falco is doing his SHDL (which is now even faster in B+) and retreating. You finally get close to him with a character. (lets pretend its Link/ganon/Samus for lolz) or another moderate speed character.
Falco does his forward B and runs to the other side of the stage to continue his laser spam
Besides, I believe there WAS a cap in melee. It was around the size of hyrule temple. I want to bring something like that back. Melee had it right....
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I would chat, but the registration is being gay. In any case, plays some Falco vs. matches on BoE and see if Laser spam is a problem. Remember to evaluate it against laser spam on any other stage, not just on Eldin. The point is to see if it gets out of proportion on Eldin in comparison to a smaller stage where you could still spam anyway.
Eaode
Smash Champion
if you can't stop him from getting through you like that then you don't deserve to catch him.Falco does his forward B and runs to the other side of the stage to continue his laser spam
also:
lol @ link and Gdorf being moderate speed.
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