The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Damp]

Also, LOL at it being just me who dislikes crippling bugs on our character.

 

[Damp]

some thoughts of mine now that I've taken 3.6 yoshi out for an extensive test drive...

Perhaps hamyo could shed some more light on the PMDT design philosophy that led to these yoshi changes, but as it stands, I'm really unhappy and thinking a lot about using yoshi less this patch.

Implying that PMDT has a design philosophy other than "Strongbad plays these characters so we'll make them good."

 

[Mumbo]

some thoughts of mine now that I've taken 3.6 yoshi out for an extensive test drive...

• new upair: brety gud, at moderate % 30-60 depending on weight you can use the decreased KBG to get some very interesting setups that weren't possible in 3.5. Try mixing up your djc upair followups instead of just following them into the sky and use that weaker KB to bop 'em with nair or fair, and then do some fancy waveland stuff. Everyone is still afraid of yoshi's combos, keep them that way.
• yoshi bomb: got nerfed hard, mostly valid. It was a pretty stupid kill move in 3.5 and its troll potential has been nerfed understandably. Still useful for comboing into on floaties, or out of upair combos at low %. Secret nerf is that the SDI multiplier being changed to 1 affects ALL hits including the popup on grounded yoshi bomb. This makes no sense--what is the point of the sweetspot (popup) hitbox being nerfed in speed, duration, and utility all at once? As it is now, even panic DI or really ****ty DI on the popup will move someone at kill % out of the main hit, effectively making grounded yoshi bomb useless as a kill move. Hopefully this is a bug.
• pivot grab: calm your jimmies you can still tech chase people and I think the main point here was to make melee style chain grabs more difficult. Because of the grab box extension timing remaining the same on the move, I believe a lot of chain grabs on e.g., spacies at moderate % are still possible with excellent timing, just harder than 3.5
• dair: overall better than 3.5, less reliable at low %. Really stupid that you can be punished for hitting someone successfully with the move and landing in front of them, but having a reliable dsmash setup makes it pretty gahlike at high %, especially on floaties.
• weight nerf: RIP armor
• DJ buff: based. I would give up even more weight if yoshi was footstool-proof at all times ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  
• parry change: partially based. Worth it overall since I was sick of parry glitch, but I'll miss parrying grabs. I've also noticed certain moves poking me out of shield--this was in 3.5 too so it's not new. Anyone have evidence of this?
• general grab nerf: what the **** why
  
• egg roll: why? WHY?! WHY?!?

Perhaps hamyo could shed some more light on the PMDT design philosophy that led to these yoshi changes, but as it stands, I'm really unhappy and thinking a lot about using yoshi less this patch. Where are the legions of yoshi players that are winning tourneys across the country, chaingrabbing marths and falcos from 0 to 100% and finishing with an offstage egg roll combo into yoshi bomb? What made the dino so unbalanced that his already mediocre grab game (let's not forget yoshi is the only tether character that can't tether the ledge, folks) with very limited and predictable throw options needed to get nerfed hard in every situation outside of a tech chase? The egg roll nerf is laughable and I have all my fingers and toes crossed that it gets reverted. I fully admit to abusing the **** out of 3.02 egg roll, and the 3.5 nerfs were valid and respectable. These nerfs take away yoshi's only recovery mixup and chance of recovering out of wall tech or meteor cancel after DJ. I don't understand why such a heavy handed nerf was implemented, it doesn't make sense. At the very least, I hope that the secret nerfs//unintended bugs to new egg roll are reverted so the performance of the move matches what the changelog shows. Zero momentum from first use egg roll use means that immediately air dodging and hoping you make it back to the stage is a better strategy for recovering high or medium than ever getting into the egg.

I was talking to @ pugwishbone17 about chaingrabbing spacies earlier. Since now you have to grab them with the inner mouth hitbox, you essentially have to upthrow -> READ DI -> dash in that direction -> pivot grab. It's still possible, just not practical. The airborne grab nerf also affects option coverage after downthrow on some characters (DI away = regrab on some chars). The grab change also removed some combos into grab, makes grabbing hard in neutral or after frame traps because people can just mash jump, and makes grabbing certain landings really difficult, in particular low landing lag recoveries such as bowser or dk.

As for the shield change, the patchnotes say that invincibility was replaced with intangibility, but only on his nose and head, which would suggest that yoshi could get poked by a dtilt or something behind him? I don't actually know for certain, I haven't had the opportunity to test this myself frame by frame.

 

[theOVEN]

I was talking to @ pugwishbone17
As for the shield change, the patchnotes say that invincibility was replaced with intangibility, but only on his nose and head, which would suggest that yoshi could get poked by a dtilt or something behind him? I don't actually know for certain, I haven't had the opportunity to test this myself frame by frame.

I have no proof but this was in 3.5 as well for sure, possibly even earlier. Certain large disjointed moves with a hitbox that appears "behind" yoshi's egg poke him in the butt, I don't know the exact mechanic but I play a lot with Ripple and he mentioned these same moves had the same bug in Brawl so it's something to do with yoshi's shield mechanic independent of parry. I'll ask him about it.

PS: where do you and pug hang out I hope it's not skype chat

 

[pugwishbone17]

There it's not officially not a bug, everyone happy now?

 

[Mumbo]

There it's not officially not a bug, everyone happy now?

Looking at the numbers, that change is mindblowing. I'm thinking the strat now is the use eggroll once and immediately exit it because your natural max air speed is better than in eggroll and you have more options ofc).

 

[Damp]

Jesus that is just horrible balancing.

 

[TomBoComBo]

• parry change: partially based. Worth it overall since I was sick of parry glitch, but I'll miss parrying grabs. I've also noticed certain moves poking me out of shield--this was in 3.5 too so it's not new. Anyone have evidence of this?
• general grab nerf: what the **** why
  
• egg roll: why? WHY?! WHY?!?

Perhaps hamyo could shed some more light on the PMDT design philosophy that led to these yoshi changes, but as it stands, I'm really unhappy and thinking a lot about using yoshi less this patch. Where are the legions of yoshi players that are winning tourneys across the country, chaingrabbing marths and falcos from 0 to 100% and finishing with an offstage egg roll combo into yoshi bomb? What made the dino so unbalanced that his already mediocre grab game (let's not forget yoshi is the only tether character that can't tether the ledge, folks) with very limited and predictable throw options needed to get nerfed hard in every situation outside of a tech chase? The egg roll nerf is laughable and I have all my fingers and toes crossed that it gets reverted. I fully admit to abusing the **** out of 3.02 egg roll, and the 3.5 nerfs were valid and respectable. These nerfs take away yoshi's only recovery mixup and chance of recovering out of wall tech or meteor cancel after DJ. I don't understand why such a heavy handed nerf was implemented, it doesn't make sense. At the very least, I hope that the secret nerfs//unintended bugs to new egg roll are reverted so the performance of the move matches what the changelog shows. Zero momentum from first use egg roll use means that immediately air dodging and hoping you make it back to the stage is a better strategy for recovering high or medium than ever getting into the egg.

most of us have figured that the eggroll nerf was intended to keep only on aerial charge instead of being able to use it more than once after being hit by certain moves. Either the nerf/fix/whatever did far more than intended, or someone on the PMBR hates Yoshi and secretly nerfed it further on purpose. Regardless of what's wrong with it, we can only hope that they re-fix it or revert it for 3.6 official.

Shield still has glitches, some low moves can poke even though they're not supposed to, that's always been there. The main glitch I hate is when you try to a Jab or Ftilit or ANYTHING out of shield and Yoshi gets stuck in shield for a short time. I'm not sure what causes or triggers it, but getting stuck in shield like that (you stay in regardless of if you hold the shield button or not) needs to be looked at and fixed.

The grab nerf is actually relatively understandable. It's a very hard nerf, don't get me wrong, but it's mostly removing a brainless option that did what most other grabs can't, grabbing a character jumping out of shield to avoid a grab. I think this nerf is work-around-able, my main tip against shffl-ers is to try and grab the Lcancel. This takes a little better spacing and timing, but I know everyone can do it.

 

[theOVEN]

confirmed that yoshi can still be shield poked: for easy reproduction, go to battlefield, shield on one of the bottom platforms, and have a falcon on the ground right below you try uptilt. gg.

re: grab nerfs, I understand the intention, but it really bothers me that it's impossible to grab people out of the air in non-shffl situations. Example, in 3.5, I could get somebody at low % with djc upair on a platform, nair them off the platform, waveland, and grab them out of tumble as they were falling past the edge of the platform, very classy. In 3.6 I punish myself for using my own approach because as soon as their feet leave the ground for any reason, using grab to extend the combo is useless. Other tether characters can still grab people out of midair as well...

 

[Mumbo]

confirmed that yoshi can still be shield poked: for easy reproduction, go to battlefield, shield on one of the bottom platforms, and have a falcon on the ground right below you try uptilt. gg.

re: grab nerfs, I understand the intention, but it really bothers me that it's impossible to grab people out of the air in non-shffl situations. Example, in 3.5, I could get somebody at low % with djc upair on a platform, nair them off the platform, waveland, and grab them out of tumble as they were falling past the edge of the platform, very classy. In 3.6 I punish myself for using my own approach because as soon as their feet leave the ground for any reason, using grab to extend the combo is useless. Other tether characters can still grab people out of midair as well...

I saw ripple mention this but I can't seem to reproduce it. Can you post a video or a gif please?

Link, Toon Link, Ivysaur, and now Yoshi can't grab out of the air whereas Lucas, Samus, and Olimar can.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I saw ripple mention this but I can't seem to reproduce it. Can you post a video or a gif please?

Link, Toon Link, Ivysaur, and now Yoshi can't grab out of the air whereas Lucas, Samus, and Olimar can.

Lucas hasn't been able to since 3.5 unless they reverted it in the new patch

 

[Mumbo]

Lucas hasn't been able to since 3.5 unless they reverted it in the new patch

I see, then that makes Samus and oli the only ones, unless they can't even do that

Ivy doesn't even have a tether grab per-say. Unlike the other tether grabs, his grabbox is static throughout the duration of the active frames. He's just got a slow long range grab and a tether recovery

 

[TomBoComBo]

in all honesty, eggroll. That's it

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi's recovery isnt that bad. Against most characters you can recover high pretty safely. With pivot neutral B's it's not easy to catch him. Yoshi can get gimped but so can a lot of good characters. Egg roll nerf is lame af and I do wish it wasn't so, but you just gotta know when armoring a move is safe. This makes being an effective yoshi very difficult.

Just because nobody was playing yoshi optimally doesn't mean he wasn't super good last patch.
Also yoshi is not bad by any means (@ Damp and whoever). Playstyle nerfs suck and I am usually not a fan of them, but yoshi is still pretty solid with the right playstyle. He just isn't one of the best. His combos are still money, his movement is good, his downtilt still WRECKS a lot of great characters, and the new downair at least gives us guaranteed downsmashes at certain percents for guaranteed kills.

Yoshi is hard, but still good. Playstyle nerfs suck because it sucks to give a character certain things and then take them away, but long-term i think the changes are mostly ok even though yoshi is no longer amazing.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi's recovery isnt that bad. Against most characters you can recover high pretty safely. With pivot neutral B's it's not easy to catch him. Yoshi can get gimped but so can a lot of good characters. Egg roll nerf is lame af and I do wish it wasn't so, but you just gotta know when armoring a move is safe. This makes being an effective yoshi very difficult.

Just because nobody was playing yoshi optimally doesn't mean he wasn't super good last patch.
Also yoshi is not bad by any means (@ Damp and whoever). Playstyle nerfs suck and I am usually not a fan of them, but yoshi is still pretty solid with the right playstyle. He just isn't one of the best. His combos are still money, his movement is good, his downtilt still WRECKS a lot of great characters, and the new downair at least gives us guaranteed downsmashes at certain percents for guaranteed kills.

Yoshi is hard, but still good. Playstyle nerfs suck because it sucks to give a character certain things and then take them away, but long-term i think the changes are mostly ok even though yoshi is no longer amazing.

Yoshi has always been difficult. The main recovery issue is in comparison to 3.5, Yoshi dies 50~% sooner. And he's much easier to edge guard thanks to the eggroll nerf. Yeah recovering high works against most, but we with the nerf we completely lose the ability to recover mid safely. Yes Yoshi is still awesome and can still dominate, but the nerfs take Yoshi from easy top 10 secret top tier to a solid mid tier.

I personally have never given up on Yoshi, and honestly this now patch makes me work harder which forces me to think more which develops my game more. I think some of the nerfs of the patch are good for making brainless reactions at least more precise (like aiming to grab Lcancel or in the mouth instead of for free). Every change demands more from us Yoshi players, and I'm willing to work hard to stay good. The only change that DOESN'T do anything for us at all is the eggroll nerf. It's dumb, uncalled for and is a bit much with the weight change among everything else.

That's how I feel about 3.6b. It's a positive change that will make us all better and more dynamic players, but eggroll needs to go back.

 

[DrinkingFood]

In case any of you are concerned about the weight change, you only lost 3 points if weight. That amounts to a very small change in knockback. Like you might die 5% earlier give or take

 

[TomBoComBo]

In case any of you are concerned about the weight change, you only lost 3 points if weight. That amounts to a very small change in knockback. Like you might die 5% earlier give or take

it plays into armor enough to bother most, I barely notice it, but it's there

 

[DrinkingFood]

I honestly doubt anybody is noticing the effect it's having on armor, unless they literally have memorized all the percents every move breaks armor at. Just because a change was made, doesn't mean any noticeable effects it could cause are more than placebo.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I honestly doubt anybody is noticing the effect it's having on armor, unless they literally have memorized all the percents every move breaks armor at. Just because a change was made, doesn't mean any noticeable effects it could cause are more than placebo.

touche

 

[Deleted member]

^I don't agree drinkingfood.

@Tombo
Against some characters yoshi used to live to 170% which was dumb. Even with no jump he could recover from top corner of the screen.

I think having a single reverted egg roll would be fair because armor is risky and it sucks to automatically die from getting knocked out of armor onstage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

^I don't agree drinkingfood.

@Tombo
Against some characters yoshi used to live to 170% which was dumb. Even with no jump he could recover from top corner of the screen.

I think having a single reverted egg roll would be fair because armor is risky and it sucks to automatically die from getting knocked out of armor onstage.

You don't need to agree, being wrong is also an option
If yoshi used to live to 170% against some characters, he is probably now living to 165%. Unless your example of living to 170% is based on using eggroll against people who can't edgeguard eggroll.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry I meant about the armor being negligible. You're right that the weight nerf itself wouldn't matter. But if you know a matchup well you will know when you can armor certain moves, especially in neutral when armoring is so important.

But maybe I'm wrong about that too.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Sorry I meant about the armor being negligible. You're right that the weight nerf itself wouldn't matter. But if you know a matchup well you will know when you can armor certain moves, especially in neutral when armoring is so important.

But maybe I'm wrong about that too.

eggroll's horizontal distance has been super nerfed, that's what we're talking about, not the one use only thing, we understand that. We ant eggroll to be at least usable to get back to stage, not way off. And most characters can get back to stage from the top corners, that's why we use survival DI to aim for those....

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sorry I meant about the armor being negligible. You're right that the weight nerf itself wouldn't matter. But if you know a matchup well you will know when you can armor certain moves, especially in neutral when armoring is so important.

But maybe I'm wrong about that too.

you're not *wrong* about it, you're just being placebo'd super hard. Which means you're expecting a difference, so you're seeing it. If a move broke your armor in neutral at like, 45% (it'd have been a pretty strong move in that case) it will now probably break your armor at 44 or 43%. That's why I say, it's ridiculous that yoshi mains feel this is causing a noticable change, because if they are noticing it, they have to know exactly what numbers their armor lasts for against those kinds of moves or else they'd miss it in the super-rare circumstance that the 108 makes a difference over the 111.

I'll do some math real quick and find numbers for when certain moves would break armor in 3.5 vs 3.6.

EDIT: ROB's raw nair (no boost) in 3.5 broke yoshi's armor at 43%. In 3.6, the strong hit of nair (which is the same one, but there is a weak hit) will break Yoshi's armor at 42%.
Ganon's fair in 3.5 broke armor at 46. Now it will break armor at 45.

Anything at low enough percents to be worth talking about only breaks armor about 1% earlier. Weight has a stronger effect later on, but only to the tune of making differences of about 5%.

The weight change made more of a difference as far as how much you slow down weight-dependent throw animations. Some throws are now probably a frame faster to end vs Yoshi, unless they were already absurdly quick throws then the weight change may have made no difference (and wouldn't need to for true follow-ups).

Keep in mind, most characters getting ganon fair'd at 40% at the edge are dead. Yoshi can armor through at that percent, and at slightly higher percents, take such low knockback/hitstun that he will be able to just fall to the edge/airdodge. Most characters also don't have low-commitment, high knockback, large-area coverage moves like ganon's aerials either, so even if they break armor, they aren't going to be able to cover your next option. Yes your eggroll is worse, but that's more for long-distance recovery. Most characters have bad long distance recovery. Yours in now mediocre. I don't wanna see yoshi mains still complaining about their recovery. Most characters can be gimped if sent off close to the stage at low percents, and most characters that want to kill early will send you off stage at low percents, close to the stage, then cover your options to gimp you. Yoshi cannot be gimped in that manner. Most characters can get gimped by weak, lingering hits like Sheik's bair, Sheiks bair won't even break yoshi's armor til like... 80-100 give or take, unless she hits the sweetspot, which doesn't happen much in an edgeguard situation since the point of bair is to cover space. Getting "gimped" at 80+ is hardly a gimp. If your character is immune to gimps until high percent, you have a good recovery. Yoshi is already an extremely hard character to punish on top of that due to the freedom DJ armor gives him to eat hits during a combo and still escape. If you're looking for a reason your character may have been nerfed, here's some reasons:
Excellent, near ungimpable close range recovery when double jump is intact
Top-tier combo escaping ability
Top-tier CC ability
High weight to slow down throws' endlag

Those three add up to a character that's among the hardest to punish, if not THE hardest. MewTwo/Luigi/Samus might be close contenders, alongside 3.5 ROB.

Is Yoshi's punishment game not also skewed in his favor by comparison? He has an amazing punishment game vs most fall speeds/weight classes. DJC makes it especially effective, from juggling FFers without needing a grab, getting low-to-the-ground meteor hitbox out (one that is safe on shield and beats CC, btw), a respectable aerial finisher in the form of nair (it's no powerhouse but as far as sex-kicks go it's one of the strongest), and a myriad of good grounded moves/space covering tail attacks that either extend combos or take heavy advantage of stagger situations, with an egg toss that exaggerates this effect.

So Yoshi is hard to punish, and punishes very hard. Effectively, he has to win neutral waaay less against most characters. Even if you think your moderately fast DJC character with long reach, an arcing projectile, and an approach that beats CC/shield has bad neutral, it doesn't actually matter that much.

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks for clearing up the DJ armor thing. Also good post ^

However, quite a few characters can break armor relatively easily at not high percentages.

 

[NinKenDo64]

Ok guys quick question...

Yesterday at a tourney I wanted to try out how the Yoshi changes would effect overall play in a mid-level setting. Me vs a Wolf in Winner's Finals. For some reason or another whenever I got Daired offstage even when deliberately saving my double jump, I couldn't meteor cancel it. Tried multiple times during the set and it wasn't happening. Now maybe I'm scrubbing it up, but I'm fairly confident in my timings, especially after multiple failed attempts. Did the change to his dbj immunity to foot-stooling inadvertently change how iterations with him airborne work? Would love it if someone else could help confirm this.

Also Egg-roll and grab nerfs hurt my soul. We're slowly becoming Melee Yoshi without an awesome parry o.O

 

[pugwishbone17]

They added a 20 frame fail window to meteor cancelling in 3.6, which means if you tried too early (16 frames after the meteor) then you have to wait another 20 before you can try again.

 

[PootisKonga]

They added a 20 frame fail window to meteor cancelling in 3.6, which means if you tried too early (16 frames after the meteor) then you have to wait another 20 before you can try again.

The 20 frame fail window added was for performing footstools
Meteor Cancels IIRC are still Brawl's 16 frames

 

[pugwishbone17]

http://puu.sh/iWRfK/12299d82fb.png
The 16 frames you have to wait regardless, you just can't be mashing jump now.

 

[NinKenDo64]

http://puu.sh/iWRfK/12299d82fb.png
The 16 frames you have to wait regardless, you just can't be mashing jump now.

Cool, thanks for the quick reply. Granted I was in a similar situation with other characters and was able to do it fine. Gotta look over the vods again. Hopefully I'm just worried over nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

Got 7/86th at socal regional yesterday, all yoshi.
Also beat lucky in doubles :D

Yoshi still very good. His neutral is so hard against some characters though >.>

Also any thoughts on these balance suggestions for making yoshi a less polarizing character in terms of his options in different matchups:
Nerf range on dtilt to melee range.
Nerf range on d-smash slightly
Make the tip of yoshi's bair a disjoint.
One decent egg roll recovery.

This would make yoshi's less able to get super free gimps on anyone who doesnt perfectly sweetspot the ledge, but give yoshi a better, more reliable neutral game and a slightly more forgiving recovery. Not sure if/how PMDT takes feedback.
I probably just need to get better. Dtilt is still broken though

 

[DrinkingFood]

Strong onstage games are infinitely more interesting than strong recovery games. Reduced range on two of Yoshi's most relevant CC tools, one a kill option, the other a poke/gimp tool, in exchange for even better aerials and a better recovery doesn't really fit PMDT's design habits. As it is already, grounded normals in smash are very weak, they don't need to be nerfed even more for the sake of buffing an aerial lol

 

[Mumbo]

Got 7/86th at socal regional yesterday, all yoshi.
Also beat lucky in doubles :D

Yoshi still very good. His neutral is so hard against some characters though >.>

Also any thoughts on these balance suggestions for making yoshi a less polarizing character in terms of his options in different matchups:
Nerf range on dtilt to melee range.
Nerf range on d-smash slightly
Make the tip of yoshi's bair a disjoint.
One decent egg roll recovery.

This would make yoshi's less able to get super free gimps on anyone who doesnt perfectly sweetspot the ledge, but give yoshi a better, more reliable neutral game and a slightly more forgiving recovery. Not sure if/how PMDT takes feedback.
I probably just need to get better. Dtilt is still broken though

I don't think nerfing range on dtilt and dsmash makes gimping less effective unless you mean reduce the size of their hitbubbles at the end so they dont go so far below the ledge. I'm all for PMDT rewarding risky offstage edgegaurding and nerfing safe onstage edgegaurding though.

The backair disjoint on the tip would honestly rejuvinate Yoshi's neutral game. RAR DJC Backair would be a legitimate approach option and i think the character would actually be significantly more fun to play.

Restoring eggrolls mobility on the first use to 3.5 values and keeping eggroll's momentum on subsequent uses at 0 would be fair. As of now eggroll doesn't even really have one use, especially with all the lag associated with it.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I don't think there needs to be any nerfs on dtilt and dsmash

 

[Deleted member]

It's so lame that yoshi can bop wolf at 0% off dtilt AND the range is rediculous. Same with a ton of the cast. It doesn't mean yoshi wins those matchups but it's a lame lame option. It could still be a good tool, just one that requires more precision. dsmash maybe doesn't need nerf, but it has rediculous range, speed, and killing power on a lot of the cast. The angle is sends people at is super good too.
However, these nerfs would definitely have to be accompanied by a buff to yoshis neutral options. because yoshi doesnt need to be nerfed. Just I think he could reward skillful play more rather than being limited in neutral against a lot of the cast and then having ez mode gimps.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Having played melee Yoshi for a while now, I've never had any problems with the lessened dtilt range, I think it's a lot better because there aren't those jank moments where falcon teleports 2 character lengths away to grab you. Honestly it would be a nerf that nobody notices because spacing it for edge guarding or neutral isn't hard.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright points taken. I just feel bad about how free dtilt kills are sometimes.


@ DrinkingFood :
A single decent egg roll recovery would not be a huge buff except against characters that really poop on yoshis recovery, and would occasionally save yoshi from some really lame deaths that no other characters really have to deal with. Not a huge deal though
Also, I'm not sure if giving yoshi an aerial that can be spaced somewhat safetly in neutral would change much besides helping his neutral out a bit, which can be rough in a fair number of matchups. But i get it.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I think a nerf to the range of his down tilt would be fair only as long as the hitbox actually comes out at the same time as the hurt box, or had a slight disjoint. As it is, it's a pretty polarizing gimp tool. Down smash is pretty okay, but I wouldn't fight against nerfing its range just a tad.

I'd love it if back air had slightly less range, a tiny disjoint, and a set knock back (or a very small BKB and KBG), allowing it to be used as a combo starter at medium percents. Back air to up air just feels right to me.

 

[Getsafe]

I think a nerf to the range of his down tilt would be fair only as long as the hitbox actually comes out at the same time as the hurt box, or had a slight disjoint. As it is, it's a pretty polarizing gimp tool. Down smash is pretty okay, but I wouldn't fight against nerfing its range just a tad.

I'd love it if back air had slightly less range, a tiny disjoint, and a set knock back (or a very small BKB and KBG), allowing it to be used as a combo starter at medium percents. Back air to up air just feels right to me.

I love Bair to Uair and it works just fine right now

 

[Scatz]

The only thing Dsmash should have is a better DI variance on hit. That would remove it's polarizing feel.

Will probably get some videos of some experimentations I've been going through to change up shield pressure, neutral game, and punishes.