Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[_Magus_]

I doubt Wiz Kick is fast enough to capitalize on a properly spaced Firebreath (could be wrong though) which is probably a great way to deter Flame Chokes. I'm not sure how tight the timing is, but I'm fairly sure it will take a good read to respond in time.

Good reads are what we survive on. XD

 

[B!squick]

Good reads are what we survive on.

Ditto for Bowser, yo.

I fought a decent Bowser for two hours straight before making all my claims. I found that unless I waited until he stopped using Fire Breath at all before I even began to use Wizard Foot, he would not have enough time to shield it, even if I'm in range of it and being hit (but not locked in Hitstun).

Let me guess, this was online wasn't it? I think that makes the match-up even more, well, even, if we're going to base our info on that.

I mean, I don't think I've ever even got pivot grab to work online. You didn't even know it was such a fantastic option as I recall. Go ahead and try it in training mode, the range is ridiculous, but impossible to do online, at least when I tried.

Also, I'd like to amend one of my earlier statements. Grounded Klaw has the 8 frame grabbox, Aerial Klaw has 17. The frame data people had them mixed up.

Additionally, it's recently been brought to our attention that Bowser has a 7 frame advantage if he lands Jab1. Do NOT get Jabbed by Bowser. It's our Flame Choke in a way. If you choose wrong after getting jabbed by Bowser you're gonna eat fecal matter. If you do anything but Shield or Spot Dodge you'll get hit by Bowser Bomb. However, Shielding Bowser Bomb fully isn't recommended obviously, but I do believe you can Spot Dodge the second landing hitbox that does the insane Shield damage. And if you Spot Dodge initially, you'll still get hit if Bowser does his DTilt and Dash Grab is even quicker than Bowser Bomb by one frame if you decide Shield is your best option.

EDIT: I also just remembered Bowser can cancel the end lag of his Short Hop Air Dodge with his B moves. I can promise you that is impossible online.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Two things I just found out with a bit of testing: 1. jab 1 to fortress is a true combo that deals 13% It works at every percent too. 2. FAir beats out our up-b. Keep in mind, it reaches all the way below Bowser. That means Bowser kills us off-stage almost as much as we kill him.
The first one isn't too important. It's only an extra 2% from his normal double jab, and won't kill before 150. However, the second one is definitely something to consider.

 

[Hydde]

Bowser is very annoying

 

[Sykkamorre]

Do we know which moves'll hit through his upB?

Dair? Wizkick's spike hitbox? Uair? Nair? Etc.

 

[Xinc]

It feels like our opinions are scattered in this matchup.

I've faced a few Bowsers online and bopped, and was bopped by several. My inputs are:

Ganondorf can't just go charging in recklessly, like every other matchup. Ganon's Nair outranges a lot of Bowser's moves, but generally, Bowser has an easier time managing stage control due to Fire Breath, but the furthest hitbox of Fire Breath does not cause flinching, meaning Ganondorf can take the damage and give Bowser a nair. Bowser's jab is good and his Foretress is hard to intercept from the top. Up air from under can, however, intercept it.

If Bowser starts charging at us, pivot ftilt is a deceivingly good move to push him back. Or you can opt for a retreat pivot grab, which also has decent range (better than his normal grab, anyway). Ganon has good grab followups on Bowser, but he shouldn't be putting himself in a risky situation, since Bowser is also a power hitter.

Both sides rely a lot on reading. Ganondorf's choke can give Bowser a really hard time. Even if teched, Ganondorf can follow up with a down tilt. Ftilt near the ledge is a great finisher against Bowser, especially out of choke.

I don't think dash attack is a bad idea either. The weak hitbox allows, usually, an up air followup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just a preliminary analysis, but I do wanna say that I think Bowser definitely wins over us. We have pretty similar tools, but Bowser can weave far better than we can, he's a lot more mobile, and he can kill us easier than we can him. Of course, we do have things like side-b, juggles that he doesn't have and his massive size so he can't access our blindspots, but his superior mobility and kill power push things in his favor.

Ganondorf has better KO options than Bowser unless you spotdodge recklessly and let Bowser F-smash you. Sure, Bowser's Smashes are all extremely strong, but they're overall slower and laggier than Ganon's, so they require harder reads. A key area where Bowser is pretty limited in is edgeguarding, while Ganondorf in contrast has above average edgeguarding. Ganon's superior aerials imo, give him the edge in securing KOs overall. Not to mention Ganondorf has superior juggle trap options overall.

I agree Bowser can outmaneuver us in neutral, but he's not Captain Falcon either. He can't rush in recklessly because he's not as fast, and he's also the largest character in the game.

At the moment, I believe this is a 50/50 matchup, or slightly in Ganon's favor due to superior capitalization options. In a custom environment I think the advantage shifts slightly to Bowser because of Dash Klaw/Slam not to mention vertical Up-B making him harder to capitalize on and allowing him to edgeguard more consistently.

 

[Vermanubis]

All the things about Ganon you mentioned are true, but I want to emphasize the fact that I think Bowser has every tool Ganon has, but with superior mobility to execute it (command grab, spaceable aerials, etc.) -- minus the gimping capabilities, but despite Bowser's linear recovery, it's deceptively difficult to intercept, because DAir is ordinarily too slow to snag him, and for UAir to be useful, you have to be under him, which requires positioning, such as being right on the ledge as to position yourself before he reaches the ledge. In theory, a linear recovery, a meal for Ganon boot makes. But it's circumstantial, like with DK's.

The one important thing to note though, is that even if our aerials beat his out by a fractional margin, almost everything we do short of UAir is commital. Almost none of Bowser's spacing tools are commital or leave wide openings. We beat Bowser in the air when Bowser's willing to approach. But in high-percent neutral situations, Bowser has a lot more ways to safely kill us than we do him.

But I'm not saying it's an outrageous disadvantage. 55:45 at max.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser wants to be on the ground though so how is the ground game comparison between the 2?

 

[Vermanubis]

Bowser's got Ganon by the goods on the ground, in my opinion. Ganon can space DTilts, do SH BAirs and other things, but Bowser's klaw, jab and spinning fortress all beat whatever we have. Assuming we're imagining that neither player jumped the entire match, Bowser would win pretty convincingly.

 

[JmacAttack]

All the things about Ganon you mentioned are true, but I want to emphasize the fact that I think Bowser has every tool Ganon has, but with superior mobility to execute it (command grab, spaceable aerials, etc.) -- minus the gimping capabilities, but despite Bowser's linear recovery, it's deceptively difficult to intercept, because DAir is ordinarily too slow to snag him, and for UAir to be useful, you have to be under him, which requires positioning, such as being right on the ledge as to position yourself before he reaches the ledge. In theory, a linear recovery, a meal for Ganon boot makes. But it's circumstantial, like with DK's.

Fair, in my experience, is actually the easiest aerial to hit him with offstage, because if you space it right, it covers all options. If he doesn't use Fortress/double jump, he gets hit with the late hitbox, and if he does, he gets hit with the early hitbox, and it kills him at around 60% without rage if he's already offstage. It's that good.

The one important thing to note though, is that even if our aerials beat his out by a fractional margin, almost everything we do short of UAir is commital. Almost none of Bowser's spacing tools are commital or leave wide openings. We beat Bowser in the air when Bowser's willing to approach. But in high-percent neutral situations, Bowser has a lot more ways to safely kill us than we do him.

My experience differs considerably. His tilts are just as laggy as Ganon's, and pack slightly less range to boot. His aerial options more consistently auto-cancel, but seeing Bowser jump into the air is a very telegraphed action that also opens him up to the easy hitboxes of Ganon's fantastic up-air. Bowser might have speed, but he has a LOT of inertia once he's in the air, so once he's going in a direction, he's going in that direction, making reads very easy. Bowser's aerials are only non-committal if you assume Ganon has no option other than "press shield". Ganon can very easily challenge Bowser's aerials with his own and not even end up trading.

Two things I just found out with a bit of testing: 1. jab 1 to fortress is a true combo that deals 13% It works at every percent too.

I can't replicate this at all. Jab1 knocks Ganon far enough away that it doesn't work past 0% for me, and it only works then if you're within Ganon's grab range. Might be because I only have 3DS, but either way, as you said, it's irrelevant and probably even a bad idea, since fortress has awful endlag, while Jab2 does not and has similar power.

2. FAir beats out our up-b. Keep in mind, it reaches all the way below Bowser. That means Bowser kills us off-stage almost as much as we kill him.

I was able to replicate this, but only if timed exactly right, and only if Ganon starts the up-B near Bowser's front, which is within range of Ganon's fair. It's very difficult to time. In actual games, I've been able to challenge Bowser's edgeguard with Ganon's fair while recovering in the past and ended up with the kill, still able to make it safely back to the stage. As long as you aren't desperate for the up-b, Bowser is taking an exceedingly unnecessary risk if he decides to edgeguard Ganon. Bowser's back-air does outrange fair, but if you see Bowser setting up for it (jumping off with his back turned), he's vulnerable to up-B again. Bowser doesn't have mixups or options that cover everything in his edgeguard game like Ganon does. Bowser's down-air will spike himself if he's offstage, and his up-air is all but useless anywhere but directly below Ganon, where Ganon is deadliest.

But I'm not saying it's an outrageous disadvantage. 55:45 at max.

I still think you're giving him too much credit. If Bowser does have tools in this matchup after all, then it's probably an even 50:50. Give Ganon some credit where it's due. Bowser's good, but this is a matchup where we really get to cut loose for once. I'm sticking to my guns at 55:45 Ganon's favor.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I have been able to kill Ganon's recovery consistantly in any part of his up-b. You just need to space it good.
I think it's 55:45 in Ganon's favor, but I also think you guys are missing some things that Bowser can do.

 

[Opana]

I have fought two great Bowsers, one that destroyed me nearly every match and one I pulled off a good come back after getting wrecked.

Side special with Bowser, may just be me but it seems the range is deceptive. The one that wrecked me landed so many of them, whether that be for damage racking, killing, or suiciding. Fire breath never gimps me, but it tacks on more damage, it covers the majority of my ledge options and its end lag is pretty low so it's hard to punish if they know what they're doing. Bowser also has good range on his moves, and I'm almost certain they're faster. Another thing, bowser is harder to gimp 9imo do to his hit box during his recovery and the fact it's mostly horizontal. I feel Bowser on the other hand can gimp us quite easily with fair, i mean a good bowser will know how to use this.

i think it's in bowser's favor slightly.

 

[Z1GMA]

I can't stress enough how devastating Gerudo is in the MU, tho.
There are 2 options for Bowser - Tech Roll towards Ganon or get hit by Dtilt(all other options) for 25% damage + Ganon lurking underneath you.

 

[Opana]

I can't stress enough how devastating Gerudo is in the MU, tho.
There are 2 options for Bowser - Tech Roll towards Ganon or get hit by Dtilt(all other options) for 25% damage + Ganon lurking underneath you.

Does Gerudo go through Whirling Fortress?

 

[Vermanubis]

I played Vex's Bowser last night, and I had to be abundantly cautious to not get snuffed off stage unless I was directly under the ledge. Conversely, Bowser has to be at a bad angle for us to threaten him offstage. In light of those matches, my opinion's largely the same. It can go either way, but I think Bowser has a slight advantage by virtue of his mobility. Gerudo's an amazing tool, but the caution Ganon has to exercise in the MU is considerably more than Bowser has to, which is why I think it's 55:45 Bowser.

 

[Opana]

I agree that at the very least it's slightly in Bowser's favor. I fought a Bowser, Le Troof, who is pretty damn amazing and showed me what Bowser was really capable of. I believe he got 19th at Xanadu but don't hold me to it, but anyway the point is after having fought a Bowser main who utilizes all his tools so well I'm confident he has an advantage, although to what degree is debatable imo.

 

[Vermanubis]

I've played Le Troof several times, and he's actually the one who I modeled the MU after! With him and Vex in mind, I feel I got my hands on a well-rounded education in the MU.

 

[Opana]

Is troof a well known Bowser main? I frequent gamefaqs often, mainly as I've been there awhile and its familiarity draws me in, but yeah I played him through there and lost the majority of the matches. They were great fun though, would definitely not mind again.

I'm pretty much modeling it after him too, along with this pretty good Bowser I played off AiB(Don't like the name change).

 

[Z1GMA]

Does Gerudo go through Whirling Fortress?

I don't know for sure, but I think the hitbubbles of Whirling Fortress are kinda whobbly, so I'd guess Gerudo can grab it sometimes and sometimes not.
Why don't you test it with a friend, Opana?

 

[Opana]

No promises, but I'll try.

Will also explore combos when I get a chance too, haven't forgotten .

 

[B!squick]

Thank god some of you aren't basing your opinions off of randoms online.

I don't know about the area where Troof lives, but being a Bowser main I'm sure he's known for being that one guy that plays Bowser at the very least. He also posts on the Bowser Boards now and then.

As for Gerudo going though Fortress, I'm gonna guess no. In Brawl, so long as it was after the invincibility frames, absolutely. But since grab armor doesn't exist anymore it probably doesn't. Ganon's arms aren't intangible during Gerudo randomly, right?

 

[Xinc]

Overall, everyone's bringing up great points. Both characters have tools they both can use against the other. It seems everyone agrees the matchup is very close, oscillating between 45-55 Bowser and 55-45 Ganon.

 

[KieRanaRan]

I'd say it's 50-50 with Bowser. Like others have said, he's one of the few characters than can dish out just as much pain as Ganondorf can. And god forbid jumping directly underneath him. Although Bowser's down special is punishable, I guess...

 

[Zigsta]

I played against a lot more Ganon over Christmas break--while running and firebreathing does scream to get grounded Wizard Foot'd, spacing FB properly lets Bowser pivot grab an incoming Wizard Foot after stopping the FB. It's a nifty fake out that just requires different FB spacing that worked against Ganon in Brawl. In Brawl Bowser could FB Ganon in the face and not care, but now ideally Bowser needs to keep his distance when using FB.

Just my two cents!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I apologize for not stating my input on this (I did want to, lack of time stopped me), but I'll quickly say that I believe this match-up to be fairly even.

50:50.

 

[Opana]

I think we should put it 50/50, many agree and those that don't feel either side only has a slight advantage.

Imo Bowser has a slight advantage but I feel it's minimal and could easily just be split even. It depends on the pov, how much you value the tools they have like choke or slam.

 

[KieRanaRan]

I think we should put it 50/50, many agree and those that don't feel either side only has a slight advantage.

Imo Bowser has a slight advantage but I feel it's minimal and could easily just be split even. It depends on the pov, how much you value the tools they have like choke or slam.

Totally. I think whoever holds the advantage in a Ganon v Bowser match-up could literally be down to the skill of the player alone.

 

[KenMeister]

I feel like I can pretty much agree that this might slightly be in Ganon's favor for the reasons A02 listed earlier. We pretty much have the superior aerial game (less landing lag in all aerials, bair can wall out Bowser pretty well, better juggling tool in Uair) and a much better, safer edgeguarding game than Bowser has, though Whirling fortress, like Vermanubis listed earlier, can be tricky to dair, given it's hard to hit with other aerials such as nair and bair. Other things Bowser has over Ganon are actual OoS options and an overall better-ranged grab and command grab, a faster jab and ftilt, and stuff like Fire-breath which can annoying to deal with, as Ganon doesn't have faster options around it, especially without platforms. We have the better tools to defend ourselves and edgeguard Bowser, but Bowser himself has little niches in his moveset, which I had listed which can give us almost nearly as much trouble. But out of curiosity, how do we deal with Fire Breath?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not that it really means much in terms of ratio, but I'm going to add that this matchup can get really random at times simply because of huge momentum swings. Unsurprisingly, the threat of juggles is pretty massive in this matchup. This matchup can be really hard to play consistently.

Mostly it's a really close matchup. I think Ganondorf closes out stocks better, while Bowser does have better mobility and boxing.

You can easily punish Firebreath on a read or with fast reactions. A good fullhop FF F-air/N-air generally does the trick. I'd say the tricky part is learning the right reactions, because you don't want to fullhop when Bowser is in a position to swat you with his SH F-air. Not much else to be said here other than I believe if you aren't committed to anything previously, Firebreath is one of those moves that you can feasibly reaction punish.

 

[Xinc]

Thank you for all the wonderful information and views, everyone. I'll start writing up everything in a bit.

 

[Xinc]

Eyyy!

In Smash4, running and fire-breathing sets you up to eat a grounded Wizard Foot because of fire breath's significant endlag, and Wizard Foot's priority over fire breath. This doesn't have combo options because of Wizard Foot's own endlag, and it is less damaging than eating a tilt, but it can knock you slightly offstage and set up an edgeguard situation at mid percent, which is not a good position for Bowser. I've seen Bowsers try to cover my edgeguard game by using Up-B into me and onto the stage, but if the final, launching hit doesn't land, Bowser's in danger of eating a forward smash when he lands due to Whirling Fortress' significant landing lag.

This is double post, but after reading this, it got my attention. Let's assume Ganon is at WizKick ledge cancel distance with Bowser spewing his flame breath. Is it possible to cancel and then follow up in that scenario?

Tagging:

Spoiler

@ A2ZOMG @ Vermanubis @ Ray_Kalm @ Opana @ Z1GMA @ _Magus_

 

[Opana]

Wizkick goes through fire breath? Thought it clanked so this makes me happy as I play a fire happy zard every now and then. I believe at low percents uair can follow up, and it may be possible to string some more after. Nair would probably work too.

I know Bowser's big body shortens woizkick distance, but does fire breath as well?

 

[Xinc]

Wizkick goes through fire breath? Thought it clanked so this makes me happy as I play a fire happy zard every now and then. I believe at low percents uair can follow up, and it may be possible to string some more after. Nair would probably work too.

I know Bowser's big body shortens woizkick distance, but does fire breath as well?

No, it doesn't. I meant after Bowser stops the Fire Breath.

 

[Opana]

So you're asking if wizkick can punish and follow up in his endlag? If so I'm not sure.

Also, I'm not positive but I think if a Bowser predicts a wizkick they can punish with a grounded bowser bomb due tot he disjointed hitbox. I have a hard time testing this solo so just throwing it out there.

 

[B!squick]

So you're asking if wizkick can punish and follow up in his endlag? If so I'm not sure.

Also, I'm not positive but I think if a Bowser predicts a wizkick they can punish with a grounded bowser bomb due tot he disjointed hitbox. I have a hard time testing this solo so just throwing it out there.

If you have the WiiU version you can just use your feet to input Ganon's DownB really easily. You can even do it in Training with the speed turned down if you need more time to react.

 

[Vermanubis]

Speaking of training, I'm astounded that a company like Namco produced such a crappy training mode. It's almost entirely useless.

 

[Opana]

Did some extensive testing, albeit solo but nonetheless I've spend a good deal of time seeing what would go against wizkick.

I believe he cam grab, flying slam, fire breath, and bowser bomb us out of wizkick. However, only the first hit of the bowser bomb connects, although di toward him may change this as he just barely misses. I short hopped into fire breath and it canceled his wizkick and the breath did not cancel, although if it catches during the start up of wizkick the outcome may differ, again it's difficult solo and my U isn't currently accessible. I believe grabs can get us out of wizkick depending on their range, a bit unsure here.

I think bowser bomb's disjointed hitbox would hit us before flame choke too, so depending on when it's used both hits may connect. Of course, all these bombs are grounded.

I can;t really test choke as the cpu only spams wizkick.+

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of training, I'm astounded that a company like Namco produced such a crappy training mode. It's almost entirely useless.

It is actually a better training mode than the previous ones because we get a pseudo frame advance. Great on Wii-U when you have two controllers.

 

[Vermanubis]

It's better, but all the same, I still can't wrap my head around why a record/playback function wasn't implemented. Maybe Street Fighter's spoiled me.