Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Xinc]

On stages, Smashville is incredibly boring to play Yoshi against if he abuses the moving platform to camp.

Not really worth a ban imo, but just one of the less preferred stages for this matchup.

I would say Smashville is not a bad choice. Yoshi needs to be careful how he camps because the platform can save Ganondorf as well. Also, smaller stage boundaries means Ganon has an easier time killing.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I don't think Battlefield is quite as advantageous as a lot of Ganons think for this MU. On one hand, everyone says eggs are free, but on the other, a major reason Ganon would want to pick this stage in the first place is for egg cover. Well, it's one or the other, really.

Meanwhile, Yoshi can do an awful lot of stuff with those platforms, and Ganon just doesn't have a good option for covering below himself against Yoshi's juggles.

Not only that, but since side-B is so good against Yoshi normally, you're actually making one of your more reliable options harder to capitalize on by giving him platforms to work with.

- On a flat stage, Yoshi is pretty effectively punished by choke
- If you choke Yoshi on a platform and he drops off of it as a result, you lose the punish
- If Yoshi drops off the ledge as a result of choke at lower percents, he can get a free punish
- If you choke Yoshi on the ground and he lands on a platform, the punish is harder to get

That said, since I don't agree with anyone who says eggs aren't a factor in the MU, it's still not a terrible pick. The cover will save you from having to air-dodge into the ground at times.

 

[Xinc]

I don't think Battlefield is quite as advantageous as a lot of Ganons think for this MU. On one hand, everyone says eggs are free, but on the other, a major reason Ganon would want to pick this stage in the first place is for egg cover. Well, it's one or the other, really.

Meanwhile, Yoshi can do an awful lot of stuff with those platforms, and Ganon just doesn't have a good option for covering below himself against Yoshi's juggles.

Not only that, but since side-B is so good against Yoshi normally, you're actually making one of your more reliable options harder to capitalize on by giving him platforms to work with.

- On a flat stage, Yoshi is pretty effectively punished by choke
- If you choke Yoshi on a platform and he drops off of it as a result, you lose the punish
- If Yoshi drops off the ledge as a result of choke at lower percents, he can get a free punish
- If you choke Yoshi on the ground and he lands on a platform, the punish is harder to get

That said, since I don't agree with anyone who says eggs aren't a factor in the MU, it's still not a terrible pick. The cover will save you from having to air-dodge into the ground at times.

Not necessarily. The crux of Battlefield is to gain possession of the main platform. That's what Ganon should strive to do. On the middle, his follow ups are normal, but Yoshi won't drop off platform, but is victim to a *Sweetspotted* up smash, up air, or aerial choke or double jump dair if you're feeling gutsy. if unteched. Up air, running up smash are options if Yoshi manages to tech, generally up air is far more reliable.

Battlefield overall just gives Ganondorf far more options and gives Yoshi less room to do his tricks.

I guess the most important thing is never to overextend yourself. Battlefield is tricky because you can get yourself trapped, but if you know BF well enough, Ganondorf has the advantage here, as he has far more trapping tools on his ground game.

THIS JUST IN: I realized Choke is also great because it can keep other moves fresh, which allows Ganon to kill more easily. In the case with Yoshi, this is crucial, because every KO move counts.

EDIT: I have almost everything written. Tomorrow evening PST might be the time I update.

 

[THE 6r]

Yoshi is a weird MU as how well Guerdo performs against him greatly depends on the stage much more so than other characters. Eggs can be annoying as they have priority over many attacks, making a solid approach challenging, but crucial as once up close, Ganon can us an f-tilt or d-tilt to start a decent combo. Also, Yoshi's garb is better, but Ganon's throws are better. Not to mention Yoshi's far superior mobility is hard to counter. But once Yoshi is off he can easily be edgeguarded with any ariel. Thie matchup is roughly even.

 

[_Magus_]

I don't think Battlefield is quite as advantageous as a lot of Ganons think for this MU. On one hand, everyone says eggs are free, but on the other, a major reason Ganon would want to pick this stage in the first place is for egg cover. Well, it's one or the other, really.

Meanwhile, Yoshi can do an awful lot of stuff with those platforms, and Ganon just doesn't have a good option for covering below himself against Yoshi's juggles.

Not only that, but since side-B is so good against Yoshi normally, you're actually making one of your more reliable options harder to capitalize on by giving him platforms to work with.

- On a flat stage, Yoshi is pretty effectively punished by choke
- If you choke Yoshi on a platform and he drops off of it as a result, you lose the punish
- If Yoshi drops off the ledge as a result of choke at lower percents, he can get a free punish
- If you choke Yoshi on the ground and he lands on a platform, the punish is harder to get

That said, since I don't agree with anyone who says eggs aren't a factor in the MU, it's still not a terrible pick. The cover will save you from having to air-dodge into the ground at times.

I feel like that first comment was mostly aimed at me XD

The other major reason would be the extra platform followups. I wrote a guide on this, and it's in my sig. Yoshi gets popped up on the platform by grounded choke, which severely limits his options even if he techs. We have a whole world of extra followups in that scenario, including kill setups, like up smash and bair.

 

[Xinc]

Sorry for the delay, folks. It appears we had a lot of debates on the matchup so I had to do a lot of recon.

WEEK 5 - Yoshi:



Character Description: Yoshi (ヨッシー Yosshī), once romanized as Yossy,full name T. Yoshisaur Munchakoopas, is a fictional anthropomorphic dinosaur (referred to as a dragon at times) who appears in video games published by Nintendo. He debuted in Super Mario World (1990) on the Super Nintendo Entertainment System as Mario and Luigi's sidekick (a role he has often reprised), and he later established his own series with several platform and puzzle games, including Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. He has also appeared in many of the spin-off Mario games including the Mario Party, the Mario Kart, and the Super Smash Bros. series, as well as in other various Mario sports titles. Yoshi belongs to the species of the same name which comes in various colors, with green being the most common.

Gerudo Followups (untouched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Ganondorf has access to forward tilt and down tilt if the opponent does not tech, due to Yoshi's relative girth, which enables Ganondorf to use forward tilt, a good horizontal killing move, or simply to knock Yoshi away. Down tilt is a good vertical move to kill or pop Yoshi in the world.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Yoshi's only projectiles are his up-B, Egg toss. Although Ganondorf can easily power shield it on the ground, Egg Toss is a larger problem if he is in the air. In the air, the move forces Ganondorf to make defensive reactions to avoid the egg, such as air dodge, mid-air jump, Wizkick, or take the hit; this can allow Yoshi to punish Ganondorf. Coupled with his good pressure options, Egg Toss allows Yoshi to gain stage control and momentum, forcing Ganondorf in a bad position and even have to approach Yoshi. It doesn't help Ganondorf's situation that the eggs deal decent damage as well.

Understanding the Matchup: Both Yoshi and Ganondorf excel in punishing each other and racking up damage. Yoshi has great mobility coupled with a good projectile and good pressure options. Furthermore, Yoshi has access to Egg Lay, which can take advantage of Ganon's lack of reliable OoS moves, which can be avoided through a well timed spot-dodge. However, spot dodging is punishable, which makes this option less valuable of an answer. If caught, especially off stage, it is imperative to mash buttons to escape the egg.

It doesn't help Ganondorf's case that Yoshi has a jab that starts at Frame 3, which is a very fast jab, which can lead to many other follow ups that can pressure Ganondorf quite well, namely grab or up smash, the former being able to land some additional moves, whereas the latter can kill at higher percents.

Due to Yoshi's jump mechanics, Ganondorf has a bit of difficulty edge guarding or gimping Yoshi. The double jump mitigates the knockback Ganondorf would deal to Yoshi at lower to middle percents, which would otherwise result in the loss of a stock.

Lastly, Ganondorf can easily be juggled by Yoshi due to his weight and size. It doesn't help that Yoshi has Egg Lay, which can force a reaction from Ganon to avoid getting trapped in the egg; Ganondorf needs to perfectly time his spot dodge in order to escape (or roll away). In that scenario, Yoshi can punish most of Ganondorf's actions with his good pressure options.

However, Ganon can easily turn the tides on Yoshi. Especially if he manages to get a Flame Choke on Yoshi, which can lead to "Big Damage" on the dinosaur. Furthermore, Yoshi's ground movement options are easier to predict, which can lead to great punishment.

When caught in a Flame Choke, Yoshi is victim to many of Ganondorf's follow ups, especially if Yoshi fails to tech the side B. Yoshi's size is large enough to make him victim to Ganondorf's jab, forward tilt, and down tilt, the last two crucial in ending stocks early. A roll towards tech can be checked by another choke to reset the situation, while a roll away can be covered by a Wizard's Foot. Flame Choke is critical in this matchup, as it is a very potent move that will more often than not lead to another move and prohibit Yoshi's movement options; given all of Ganondorf's moves deal large damage, even with Yoshi's heavier weight, Ganondorf does not need many hits to close a stock. Flame Choke is also crucial because it acts as a "de-staling" move, keeping other potential kill moves from becoming stale.

Despite Yoshi being able to juggle Ganon, Ganondorf has an easy time juggling Yoshi as well. Due to Yoshi's size and weight, Ganondorf's up air can easily rack up damage and trap Yoshi in the air, leaving very few options for him to take to return safely, the most reliable being air dodging, which is easily baited and punished. Though Ganondorf should be careful for rogue Yoshi Bombs.

Lastly, a great Ganondorf should be aware to perfect shield. Particularly, in this matchup, a lot of Yoshi's moves are punishable through Powershield. Specifically, Ganondorf can punish Yoshi's neutral air, down air, and egg toss, and retaliate on the first two with a good down throw and followup. With moves that bypass shields, such as Yoshi's Egg Lay and grab, Ganondorf should jump. For those with prolonged grabs, there is a short period of time of lag that Ganondorf can take advantage of and punish.

Ganondorf needs to understand Yoshi's special jump mechanics, as well as Smash 4's physics, as he can take advantage of the rapid shield generation to even not-perfect shield, but just simply shield Yoshi's down air, a move with tremendous shield damage, and counter with a shield grab.

Ganondorf has several stages that he prefers to face Yoshi on. The first is Battlefield: the smaller stage does little to help Yoshi's egg toss shenanigans. In addition, the platforms offer protection to Ganon from eggs. The smaller stage also allows Ganondorf's speed to be less relevant, as he has a far easier time approaching. The platforms are also a main factor in the matchup. If Ganondorf chokes Yoshi below a platform, Yoshi is sent high enough to be sent to the platform, which can lead to followups, especially if Yoshi fails to tech. Regardless, up air is able to catch Yoshi, tech or no, but a sweetspotted up smash can hit a Yoshi that fails to tech far easier.

Another decent stage is Smashville. which also is a small stage. Though wider than Battlefield, Ganondorf does not have a difficult time approaching Yoshi like he does in Final Destination. The small blast zones in Smashville allows Ganondorf to more easily kill Yoshi, and the moving platform may be a good trapping tool, as well as a small protection factor from stray eggs. However, be careful not to get juggled onto that platform, as it will lead to potential catastrophic results, the best case scenario with Ganon ending with more damage, and worst case is him losing a stock.

Summary of the Matchup: Yoshi has an advantage in this matchup due to his superior mobility and Egg Toss option, which prevents Ganondorf from approaching safely. Ganondorf must play cautiously, due to Yoshi's good options in delivering pressure.

However, Ganondorf has several answers to Yoshi. If Yoshi is in the air, Ganondorf can defeat Yoshi by delivering a well spaced Nair or Up Air. Up Air is a potent juggling move which will rack up damage, while neutral air is reserved for when Yoshi is close to Ganondorf. If spaced correctly, Ganondorf's up air will outrange anything in Yoshi's arsenal, though he must be wary of Yoshi's Down-B. Similarly, Similarly, if Yoshi is parallel to Ganondorf, his neutral air can outspace Yoshi's.

On the ground, Ganondorf's Flame Choke is his best move, as it gives him many options to take care of Yoshi with. If untouched, he can use down tilt and forward tilt. Especially in high percents, this will lead to Yoshi's death. However, Ganondorf doesn't just need to do that, especially since Yoshi can evade those moves with a good tech roll. Hence, Ganondorf needs to add mixups.

Like most other match ups, Ganondorf needs to play defensively and trade hits with Yoshi before retreating. This is exemplified in this matchup. Since Ganondorf's moves mainly are risky and require commitment, he can be easily punished. Thus, he should not be recklessly throwing out moves. Instead, he should be slowly closing in the distance and searching for a mistake Yoshi makes and be close enough to capitalize on it. Once Ganondorf punishes Yoshi enough without overcommitting, he should back away from any retaliation from Yoshi and repeat the process, and try to end the stock.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55

Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55

Thanks to: @ Scarlet Jile @ A2ZOMG @ JmacAttack @ Ray_Kalm @ Vermanubis @ Z1GMA @ividal @ MagiusNecros @ Opana @Z-Bone @GSM_Dren @Sykkamorre @ _Magus_ @CelestialMarauder~ @Regralht @WarioWaft @ Drexel

We had a lot of deep and involved discussions this week! Thanks again, everyone!

For WEEK 6, we will be discussing Rosalina and Luma!

 

[Opana]

I feel it is important to kill Luma quickly as that opens up our choke/grab. If it is around I try and hit them both, often with dtilt or nair. I think sh nair is our best tool for dealing with this mu, whether that be approaching or defending although spacing is essential as our position is very important here and we don't want to lose it. I think we have to dance around her and play safely much more so than usual due to her ability to keep us away so effectively. Her nair, fair, and dair are scary gimp tools due to how long they're out and where they hit us. Her uair is deceptively good at juggling, not sure if any of our aerials can beat her.

 

[Shmeckie]

Well'p, I made a nice write-up for my thoughts on this matchup, then the nightly backup snuck up and backstabbed my post Spy-style. So here's the abridged rundown:

I think Ganon has the slight advantage in this matchup. You need to play completely opposite to what you're used to (go aggro, and stay on the ground), and you need to respect that her aerials beat everything and last for days. She can gimp your recovery, and has decent spacing tools if she's feeling scared. That said, she's a big, very lightweight target, and without Luma she can't kill for squat. Adding to that, Ganon can quite easily kill Luma quickly, even killing it as soon as Rosalina gets it back. if she's got her back to an edge, Luma's life is in danger at all times. Ganon is a constant, major threat to Luma, which Rosalina needs to actually win the match. All Ganon needs to kill is his fist and his disdain for your continued existence. If the Ganon player is smart, respects her aerials, makes sure to block her dash attack, and takes Luma out whenever possible, he'll conquer the stars.

The advantage, I believe, is Ganon's, primarily because of how easily he can kill Luma.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm surprised to hear you say that! In my opinion, Rosa, Villager and Sheik are Ganon's absolute worst. DHD is close behind.

Just about everything that makes Ganon hurt is present: reliable and safe ways to keep him out; extremely easily juggled by UAirs; choke is absolutey nonviable; no guaranteed follow-ups; gimped easily.

Ganon's MO in this MU is to poke Rosalina, be it with DTilts, BAirs or whatever. As ridiculous as that sounds, a defensive Rosa has no reason to respect our mix-up game because of Luma. The most reliable way to separate Luma is wizkick, but it's extremely unsafe, since Luma usually slows the kick down enough to block it from Rosa, so it's almost always a trade -- separate Luma in exchange for being punished.

In fact, that's Ganon's way in this MU: you have to be willing to take hits to make Rosa manageable, whether it be through wizkicking Luma, or choking her with the knowledge that Luma will just knock you off just to rack damage. Smart Rosas will know that they have zero reason to drop their shields or roll. When they know this, the MU becomes a nightmare where poking with DTilts and fishing for set-ups becomes the primary objective.

The (quasi) good news, however, is that her up-b, with sufficient prediction, can be intercepted with a UAir offstage. It has to be done with very good timing, though.

NAir is our best punish OoS against her DA, and it's a great spacing tool, especially if retreated. BAir walls also make it kinda tough for her to approach.

On the ledge, she's tough to deal with. She can cover most options with Luma's jab. As for her coming back onto the stage, FAir is really good for coming onstage, and NAir or DA are good punishes for it.

Lastly, when she's without Luma, we definitely have the advantage. But the burden of offense is on us -- and we have a small time frame to do something about it. Worth mentioning also, if you hit Rosa and she still has Luma, Luma's callback has a hitbox, which can make your day suck. Beyond that, an honorable mention for stage bans in tournament: Halberd and Duck Hunt. Ganon can't reach the top of the tree on Duck Hunt, so Rosa, if she loses Luma, can just camp there 'til it comes back. Halberd because the low-ceilings, coupled with our profound inability to escape UAir juggles, makes for horribly early KOs.

Overall, in my opinion, it's a 70:30 for Rosa. Against smart, defensive Rosas, Ganon struggles for every hit, and in order to win, has to rely almost exclusively on reads, which isn't something I think is itself a merit for a favorable MU ratio. There is simply, in my mind, nothing about Ganon as a character that Rosa has to worry about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I agree this is one of Ganon's harder matchups, but I think it's 4/6 in Rosalina's favor, mostly because she has a very easy time edgeguarding us with her disjoints. By taking WDK (and Dark Fists) in this matchup I believe it's at worst even because she is much easier to kill when WDK prevents her from easily gimping us and also forces her to play more respectfully in midrange.

And also, while Rosa shieldcamping is really strong, you need to keep in mind that Ganon's F-throw is one of the best anti-Luma throws in the game. If she insists on blocking all day, a good F-throw can turn the tides and separate her from Luma safely. I personally find that empty jump baits are in fact quite practical in this matchup given how tall she is, meaning she does have to block against the threat of your aerials.

My rationale this matchup is as long as you don't let her easily punish you with Luma or gimp you, you will typically outlast her pretty significantly, and she's very tall meaning she does have to play carefully around Ganon's aerials. Because you will eventually separate her from Luma one way or another with your big hitboxes or F-throw, she will have to be proactive in this matchup to lock you down.

Also if your reactions are good, you can U-smash oos against her DA.

I don't yet think this matchup is unwinnable competitively. We have tools in neutral, and while we have to take significant risks to get rid of Luma, we don't actually have a lot of difficulty doing so given we have good hitboxes and F-throw. However Rosalina's strong edgeguards make this matchup much harder than it should be for Ganon, because it gives her a way to ignore Ganon's weight advantage. By taking WDK we mostly remove that advantage for her, making the matchup much better for Ganon (in addition to how WDK does better hopping over Luma).

 

[JmacAttack]

Yeah 60:40 sounds right. Screw this matchup. If she launches Luma, get between the two and nail Rosa. ***** is light as ****, but can camp for days. At the very least, Rosas are rare.

Respect the dash attack. Know your spacing, and don't become grab bait by using an overly risky attack like WizFoot on Luma. Her up/down airs have massive disjoints, so juggle with up air from the corners of her hurt box. Don't WizFoot if she's juggling, her up air wins.

 

[adom4]

I'm surprised to hear you say that! In my opinion, Rosa, Villager and Sheik are Ganon's absolute worst. DHD is close behind.

Just about everything that makes Ganon hurt is present: reliable and safe ways to keep him out; extremely easily juggled by UAirs; choke is absolutey nonviable; no guaranteed follow-ups; gimped easily.

Ganon's MO in this MU is to poke Rosalina, be it with DTilts, BAirs or whatever. As ridiculous as that sounds, a defensive Rosa has no reason to respect our mix-up game because of Luma. The most reliable way to separate Luma is wizkick, but it's extremely unsafe, since Luma usually slows the kick down enough to block it from Rosa, so it's almost always a trade -- separate Luma in exchange for being punished.

In fact, that's Ganon's way in this MU: you have to be willing to take hits to make Rosa manageable, whether it be through wizkicking Luma, or choking her with the knowledge that Luma will just knock you off just to rack damage. Smart Rosas will know that they have zero reason to drop their shields or roll. When they know this, the MU becomes a nightmare where poking with DTilts and fishing for set-ups becomes the primary objective.

The (quasi) good news, however, is that her up-b, with sufficient prediction, can be intercepted with a UAir offstage. It has to be done with very good timing, though.

NAir is our best punish OoS against her DA, and it's a great spacing tool, especially if retreated. BAir walls also make it kinda tough for her to approach.

On the ledge, she's tough to deal with. She can cover most options with Luma's jab. As for her coming back onto the stage, FAir is really good for coming onstage, and NAir or DA are good punishes for it.

Lastly, when she's without Luma, we definitely have the advantage. But the burden of offense is on us -- and we have a small time frame to do something about it. Worth mentioning also, if you hit Rosa and she still has Luma, Luma's callback has a hitbox, which can make your day suck. Beyond that, an honorable mention for stage bans in tournament: Halberd and Duck Hunt. Ganon can't reach the top of the tree on Duck Hunt, so Rosa, if she loses Luma, can just camp there 'til it comes back. Halberd because the low-ceilings, coupled with our profound inability to escape UAir juggles, makes for horribly early KOs.

Overall, in my opinion, it's a 70:30 for Rosa. Against smart, defensive Rosas, Ganon struggles for every hit, and in order to win, has to rely almost exclusively on reads, which isn't something I think is itself a merit for a favorable MU ratio. There is simply, in my mind, nothing about Ganon as a character that Rosa has to worry about.

How do you think custom moves affect this matchup?
I'm mostly theorizing but it seems like Dropkick & Flame chain are fantastic in this matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How do you think custom moves affect this matchup?
I'm mostly theorizing but it seems like Dropkick & Flame chain are fantastic in this matchup.

Flame Chain is ok, but Drop Kick and Dark Fists are the real important ones. Those two moves specifically prevent you from being gimped, which is Ganon's main weakness in this matchup.

Also Flame Choke honestly isn't terrible in this matchup even though she can punish you on hit with Luma. The threat of a Ganoncide is actually really important in this matchup because it forces her to be more careful with how she edgeguards you. In theory I would advocate Flame Wave, although atm I find the move a bit too awkward and slow in singles.

 

[Opana]

Gonna also say 70:30, she's way too safe and the time in which Luma isn't present is rarely enough to be a game changer as it's extremely likely we'll have the percent disadvantage and still have to play safely. Pretty much anything we can do she can do better, in this mu anyway, until Luma is gone.

Also I feel Mega Man and Sonic are our worst MUs.

 

[the king of murder]

Everything has been said about Rosa and I agree that it is definitely in her favor. So I will just drop some tips against Rosa for now.

Since Luma is such a pain(allows her to control the stage, stronger edgeguard options, generally more damage ect..) it is in our best interest to get rid of it as soon as possible. Fourtanely, Luma dies very quickly to our attacks but we have to risk eating damage ourselves. While I agree that we should play agressive against her, it should not be mindless agression as it will become really predictable. While, she doesn't have to respect our mix ups, it would be far worse if we get predictable as our risks will become meaningless.

If we throw out powerful moves(Smashes), the shield push should be too strong for her to punish us while it hits Luma simultaneously. Also, spacing with D-tilts and F-tilts is really good as it is kinda safe poking on Rosa's shield while hitting Luma too.

If possible, throw her into the air. In my experience, she is a a lot more managable in the air as Luma is not that much of a factor there and our aerials are quick and strong while her air game is decent but not as good as ours. All the other stuff was already mentioned or obvious (don't use Gerudo unless Luma dies, F-throw is good ect..)

 

[THE 6r]

Do we have to talk about this? Rosalina is one of the two characters I dread fighting as anyone( the being Sonic and those ****ing invincibility frames), let alone Ganondorf. This is 70:30 in Rosa's favor as I completely agree with all of the previous reasons in that you are too reliant on reads.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Get rid of Luma first. Keep Ganon on the ground. Do not challenge Rosalina's Aerials. Especially if Luma is still there.

Rosalina is a defensive character. So double up on that playstyle.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gonna also say 70:30, she's way too safe and the time in which Luma isn't present is rarely enough to be a game changer as it's extremely likely we'll have the percent disadvantage and still have to play safely. Pretty much anything we can do she can do better, in this mu anyway, until Luma is gone.

Also I feel Mega Man and Sonic are our worst MUs.

I disagree with this. You can actually go pretty ham against Rosalina when she doesn't have Luma as most of her KO options are considerably less powerful and have less range without Luma. 12 or so seconds in my opinion is often enough time to make one or two reads in neutral, and against one of the lightest characters in the game, that by itself can be extremely gamechanging.

I also really want to emphasize that regular grabs and F-throw are hugely important in this matchup.

 

[_Magus_]

Flame Chain is ok, but Drop Kick and Dark Fists are the real important ones. Those two moves specifically prevent you from being gimped, which is Ganon's main weakness in this matchup.

Also Flame Choke honestly isn't terrible in this matchup even though she can punish you on hit with Luma. The threat of a Ganoncide is actually really important in this matchup because it forces her to be more careful with how she edgeguards you. In theory I would advocate Flame Wave, although atm I find the move a bit too awkward and slow in singles.

I think chain is good simply to actually get some use out of our side b, bc rosa renders our flame choke and grab game worthless.

Having played around with Rosalina, a piece of insight I can offer is that Luma shot's endlag is not as small as everyone thinks. The key is to bait her to send out Luma, then get in between the two. This forces her to either recall Luma, which you can punish, or try to fend off your assault with her own subpar range. Either way, when we get in, there are punishes to be had, and I really don't think Rosalina is as safe as you guys make her out to be. The one thing I really don't like for us in this matchup is her fullhop spaced dair. We're tall enough to be hit by it consistently, and the disjoint means it's very hard for us to challenge. The only way I could conceive of dealing with dair is rolling towards her in anticipation, as dair's endlag will keep her from punishing us on the way down.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think chain is good simply to actually get some use out of our side b, bc rosa renders our flame choke and grab game worthless.

Having played around with Rosalina, a piece of insight I can offer is that Luma shot's endlag is not as small as everyone thinks. The key is to bait her to send out Luma, then get in between the two. This forces her to either recall Luma, which you can punish, or try to fend off your assault with her own subpar range. Either way, when we get in, there are punishes to be had, and I really don't think Rosalina is as safe as you guys make her out to be. The one thing I really don't like for us in this matchup is her fullhop spaced dair. We're tall enough to be hit by it consistently, and the disjoint means it's very hard for us to challenge. The only way I could conceive of dealing with dair is rolling towards her in anticipation, as dair's endlag will keep her from punishing us on the way down.

I should point out, even though Flame Choke is unsafe on hit against Luma, you still deal more damage to Rosalina than she deals to you on a successful hit.

Also wtf. Ganon's grab game on Rosalina is one of the better ones in this game, because F-throw reliably separates Rosalina from Luma, and she has a lot of reason to shield against Ganon, which actually means making reads with grabs is especially important in this matchup.

 

[_Magus_]

I should point out, even though Flame Choke is unsafe on hit against Luma, you still deal more damage to Rosalina than she deals to you on a successful hit.

Also wtf. Ganon's grab game on Rosalina is one of the better ones in this game, because F-throw reliably separates Rosalina from Luma, and she has a lot of reason to shield against Ganon, which actually means making reads with grabs is especially important in this matchup.

Interesting. So reward > risk for grabs? I'll have to think about that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If she is good she will try to make your life hard by spacing Dtilt and grabs to break your rhythm. But yeah for the most part you have enough range to attempt fighting her spacing and she will have to respect this to not get killed, and implementing your own grabs in neutral is critical.

 

[_Magus_]

If she is good she will try to make your life hard by spacing Dtilt and grabs to break your rhythm. But yeah for the most part you have enough range to attempt fighting her spacing and she will have to respect this to not get killed, and implementing your own grabs in neutral is critical.

Good to know. I'll be sure to make use of this.

 

[Vermanubis]

I disagree with this. You can actually go pretty ham against Rosalina when she doesn't have Luma as most of her KO options are considerably less powerful and have less range without Luma. 12 or so seconds in my opinion is often enough time to make one or two reads in neutral, and against one of the lightest characters in the game, that by itself can be extremely gamechanging.

I also really want to emphasize that regular grabs and F-throw are hugely important in this matchup.

I'm afraid this is one of the times we don't line up, old friend. Fthrow really is a good tool, and we can indeed get a lot done while Luma's gone. But having a Rosa in my region who knows the MU intimately, I feel safe saying that grabs only go so far. Rosa can just use Luma's callback to hit you. Sure, it's a favorable trade, but therein lies the problem: everything we do until Luma's gone is a trade. Everything she does isn't. That facet alone doesn't account for the severe discrepancy though.

Rather, the severity lies in the fact that, as I mentioned above, we struggle for every hit, whereas one grab from Rosa means 5 UAirs. We certainly do have the advantage of being heavy and her light, but as you said, her gimping capability nullifies this. The only edge we have on her is our KO power. She can juggle us, gimp us, camp us, outspace us, nullifies our best tools unless Luma's gone (it's worth mentioning that killing Luma is easier said than done, but I'm sure we all know that).

When our recourse is limited to hard reads (for which we can be heavily punished with Uthrow > UAir ad infinitum), it's difficult to see from where 40 of this MU's favor comes from for Ganon. There're too many "could be"s in terms of what swings things in our favor in this MU, rather than solid character-to-character advantages. I can see myself coming to terms with 65:35, but above that, I feel is similar to saying "we lose this MU only slightly more than to those whom we're slightly disadvantaged"

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think she walls us that consistently given our range. And I am not quite seeing why you are avoiding my point that Fthrow separates Luma easily. You will hit both of them simultaneously, and are safe from retaliation. Yes there is the problem of her spacing you out, but if she is doing that, you should be using more attacks to exchange.

I don't doubt you probably have played better Rosalina players than me. At the same time from what I have seen in the limited times you have played vs Rosalina, I can't say I always agreed with all your choices, even though I recognize your superior skill overall. I won't try to make specific judgements now given they are slightly old clips.

For all I know the matchup could be overall as unwinnable as you suggest, but I see it more as an issue of her disproportionately high reward against Ganon, much less that we can't find a way to fight her in neutral or capitalize adequately. Similarly, given WDK directly addresses Rosalina's reward against Ganon and then some, I believe the matchup is pretty good on a custom setting.

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think it's super unwinnable, necessarily. Just that, in a majority of cases, we're at the disadvantage. And given we can die so tremendously early, it's just a tough call to make. Like I said, I'm willing to compromise to 65:35, but her zoning, juggles and gimps, to me, just don't justify anything higher. I want to stress what a nightmare it is to landed against Rosa after big juggles.

As for avoiding the fthrow argument... I don't feel like I avoided it. That implies I purposely ignored it. I felt I addressed it by saying that grabs are terrifically difficult to land against Rosas who keep their distance, which in turn means that it's not something I'd put stake in to directly influence the MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I probably misunderstood you somewhere. Could be my fault. And yes grabs are really hard to land, but I mostly wanted to emphasize that they are important because of how Ganon actually doesn't suffer from Luma retaliation, meaning when Rosalina tries to shield camp against Ganon, you have options.

The times I struggle most against Rosalina are when she plays a consistent out of shield punish game as you try to avoid getting dominated by Luma. While you won't get a lot of grabs against a good Rosalina, the fact it's an option is imo pretty game changing as it allows you to pressure her into playing a conventional spacing game against you, where you can potentially come out ahead.

 

[Shmeckie]

I dunno, I've fought some pretty great Rosalinas in the past, and as annoying as she can be I never really felt crippled against her. Maybe it's a patience thing, I dunno, but I always approached this match with the feeling that I just need to take out her little star pillow and I'm good to go. I feel like this matchup required using Ganon's read game in a different way. You need to make the right call and the right move before she does anything. Throwing out a Wizkick the instant you feel she's gonna run at you, and not using it too far away to have it shielded, for example. Dash attacking works great for meeting her head-on and getting Luma away from her, and I find D-tilt pokes effective at mid-range spacing. Whenever you can pull of a F-tilt or a F-smash, go for it, because those attacks are great at getting rid of Luma early.

I find a well-timed, down-directed F-smash is your best friend, here. Its startup is basically a beat, which always helps me with the timing, it pretty much puts Luma out of commission, and Ganon's arms and head either have ridiculous priority or outright invincibility during the actual lunge of that attack. You won't get off too many of them, but if you're watching and waiting for the right time to use it, that elbow's a game changer.

What really helps us in this matchup, I feel, is that Rosa doesn't want to space us too much because that would involve either separating Luma from her, which puts the little guy at our mercy (Dash Attack works quite well for overpowering Luma's attacks when he's alone), or keeping us at bay with weaker poking moves. If she wants Ganon to die, she needs to get up in his face, and that's where Ganon works best. Don't get discouraged, don't get too distracted by Luma, kill the little pipsqueak early, and you should be fine. Rosalina has a lot of tools you need to respect, but that mindset has won me a lot of matches.

Actually the most effective thing I've found is to read the Rosalina player, specifically when they like to Dash attack and when they like to grab, because if you know which one's coming you have some very effective answers to each.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys, we just started the discussion on the Ganondorf match-up in the Marth Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

 

[_Magus_]

Hey guys, we just started the discussion on the Ganondorf match-up in the Marth Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

*leaves evil lair*

 

[R e d X]

Definitely feel like like Rosa is not easy for Ganon. Would be looking at something in the 65:35 area imo, I think she gives ganon a really hard time

 

[_Magus_]

Definitely feel like like Rosa is not easy for Ganon. Would be looking at something in the 65:35 area imo, I think she gives ganon a really hard time

Reasoning?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Definitely feel like like Rosa is not easy for Ganon. Would be looking at something in the 65:35 area imo, I think she gives ganon a really hard time

Without Luma Rosalina is weak sauce. Get rid of Luma and you win. Just remember to never challenge Rosa in the air. You'll probably lose that way.

 

[Drexel]

Rosalina pwns Ganondorf easily. I've watched some matches with Rosalina and Luma and the pair are very formidable, (especially against Ganon via experience, and a bad one at that).

Luma makes approaching Rosalina tough for Ganon as it pretty much blocks Ganon's ability to use the Flame Choke and Wizard Kick safely for setups. Good Rosalina players like to send targets in the air as Rosalina has great aerials and her U Air is a deadly KO option, more so on slower and less mobile characters like Ganon. Also don't forget Luma's ability to edgeguard by hovering above/near the edge, very annoying for Ganon who has limited recovery options. However, I find that without Luma, Rosalina can be dealed with. I think by getting Luma away with well spaced FTilts and Dtilts, Rosalina becomes more managable, but it is still a huge upward battle of defense and patience. Ganon has to resort to reads in order get damage. The only advantage Ganon has is that Rosalina is one of the lightest characters in the game so he can KO her without racking up too much damage. For that this matchup feels like a 65:35 to Rosalina, maybe 70:30 since it's just a horrible matchup.

 

[Z1GMA]

I've played some good Rosalinas, but no Top Rosalina, which might be the reason I don't find the MU too difficult.
She interupts most of Ganon's stuff with her weak, disjointed stuff, but once we get a bit of momentum, we can land a good few hits on her, and she doesn't need to be at a too high % to get KOd.

Many of her stronger attacks are very punishable. While Ganon suffers in neutral against her, I believe he's one of the better characters at punishing her wiffs.
I'm not a big fan of Dsmash, but it's surprisingly effective for punishing in this MU especially. (Shout Out to @ A2ZOMG )

While she does a good job zoning Ganon out, she does also give him opportunities that he can capitalize on.

Once you get her to recover low, show her who's king of the ledges.

37 - 63

 

[THE 6r]

Without Luma Rosalina is weak sauce. Get rid of Luma and you win. Just remember to never challenge Rosa in the air. You'll probably lose that way.

Today I accidentally choose Rosa online and that gave me more insight on the MU.

While I agree with much of what you guys are saying, from experience when I had my Luma defeated I easily found good options to buy time with like taking to the air and her tilts. She mite not be as defencless minus luma as we make her out to be. And the crazy part, with NO prior experience online as her I won against a decent player. This could be harder then we think.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Without Luma Rosalina is weak sauce. Get rid of Luma and you win. Just remember to never challenge Rosa in the air. You'll probably lose that way.

Not true. Her nair and other aerials are decently safe approaches. Her neutral game is good even without Luma.

I think Rosalina is the *only* character Ganon flat out loses to.

Mainly because of two things.

1.) Flame Choke is shunned away even if you read her, it won't be easy to land. Her fast and quick rolls doesn't make her bait easy. And if you do land a choke, Luma is there to protect her (shielding will take both Luma and Rosalina's hits but with intense shield pressure). It's best to roll away after choke.

2.) Her safe aerial pressure. She has some very lingering aerial moves that she can switch around pressure you with. These moves have multiple hitboxes, which, if timed right, can be used against Ganon's shield safely.

Along with the above two major advantages she has over Ganon, there are a few other. She possibly has the best gimp, or spike game in Smash 4. Double hit down air is devastatingly good against Ganon. I've gotten away from many smart gimp attempts from many characters, but Rosa could just wait and bait.

She's not gimpable and has an unpredictable recovery.

And then there's also her Luma. Ever wondered why the Ice Climber and Ganon matchup was the worst in Brawl? For a similar reason I believe that the Rosa and Ganon matchup is the worst in Smash 4. Ganon cannot deal with characters who mess up his fundamental advantageous; flame choke, raw power and decent midrange pressure. A good Rosalina will use her Luma very expertly against a Ganon.

With all that said, this matchup comes to 65:35 Luma. For the worst matchup for Ganon, this is at least quite lift up from Brawl. Ganon still has raw power, and Rosa is still very light. You'll have to be very assertive & defensive with Luma and aggressive against Rosalina. This matchup is not impossible, but the only matchup Ganon does not have a very good shot at winning.

The only character Ganon outright loses to is Rosalina & Luma, with a 65:35.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zamus, Pikachu, Sonic & Greninja (from my conclusion so far) are all 40:60 their favour.

Everyone else is a neutral, a slight advantage, and maybe even one or two advantage.

 

[THE 6r]

Not true. Her nair and other aerials are decently safe approaches. Her neutral game is good even without Luma.

I think Rosalina is the *only* character Ganon flat out loses to.

Mainly because of two things.

1.) Flame Choke is shunned away even if you read her, it won't be easy to land. Her fast and quick rolls doesn't make her bait easy. And if you do land a choke, Luma is there to protect her (shielding will take both Luma and Rosalina's hits but with intense shield pressure). It's best to roll away after choke.

2.) Her safe aerial pressure. She has some very lingering aerial moves that she can switch around pressure you with. These moves have multiple hitboxes, which, if timed right, can be used against Ganon's shield safely.

Along with the above two major advantages she has over Ganon, there are a few other. She possibly has the best gimp, or spike game in Smash 4. Double hit down air is devastatingly good against Ganon. I've gotten away from many smart gimp attempts from many characters, but Rosa could just wait and bait.

She's not gimpable and has an unpredictable recovery.

And then there's also her Luma. Ever wondered why the Ice Climber and Ganon matchup was the worst in Brawl? For a similar reason I believe that the Rosa and Ganon matchup is the worst in Smash 4. Ganon cannot deal with characters who mess up his fundamental advantageous; flame choke, raw power and decent midrange pressure. A good Rosalina will use her Luma very expertly against a Ganon.

With all that said, this matchup comes to 65:35 Luma. For the worst matchup for Ganon, this is at least quite lift up from Brawl. Ganon still has raw power, and Rosa is still very light. You'll have to be very assertive & defensive with Luma and aggressive against Rosalina. This matchup is not impossible, but the only matchup Ganon does not have a very good shot at winning.

The only character Ganon outright loses to is Rosalina & Luma, with a 65:35.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zamus, Pikachu, Sonic & Greninja (from my conclusion so far) are all 40:60 their favour.

Everyone else is a neutral, a slight advantage, and maybe even one or two advantage.

So we all agree this is the Ice Climbers minus the ****ing chain grabs and desyching.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not true. Her nair and other aerials are decently safe approaches. Her neutral game is good even without Luma.

I think Rosalina is the *only* character Ganon flat out loses to.

Mainly because of two things.

1.) Flame Choke is shunned away even if you read her, it won't be easy to land. Her fast and quick rolls doesn't make her bait easy. And if you do land a choke, Luma is there to protect her (shielding will take both Luma and Rosalina's hits but with intense shield pressure). It's best to roll away after choke.

2.) Her safe aerial pressure. She has some very lingering aerial moves that she can switch around pressure you with. These moves have multiple hitboxes, which, if timed right, can be used against Ganon's shield safely.

Along with the above two major advantages she has over Ganon, there are a few other. She possibly has the best gimp, or spike game in Smash 4. Double hit down air is devastatingly good against Ganon. I've gotten away from many smart gimp attempts from many characters, but Rosa could just wait and bait.

She's not gimpable and has an unpredictable recovery.

And then there's also her Luma. Ever wondered why the Ice Climber and Ganon matchup was the worst in Brawl? For a similar reason I believe that the Rosa and Ganon matchup is the worst in Smash 4. Ganon cannot deal with characters who mess up his fundamental advantageous; flame choke, raw power and decent midrange pressure. A good Rosalina will use her Luma very expertly against a Ganon.

With all that said, this matchup comes to 65:35 Luma. For the worst matchup for Ganon, this is at least quite lift up from Brawl. Ganon still has raw power, and Rosa is still very light. You'll have to be very assertive & defensive with Luma and aggressive against Rosalina. This matchup is not impossible, but the only matchup Ganon does not have a very good shot at winning.

The only character Ganon outright loses to is Rosalina & Luma, with a 65:35.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zamus, Pikachu, Sonic & Greninja (from my conclusion so far) are all 40:60 their favour.

Everyone else is a neutral, a slight advantage, and maybe even one or two advantage.

Hmmm. Looks like a toughy.

 

[mario123007]

Not true. Her nair and other aerials are decently safe approaches. Her neutral game is good even without Luma.

I think Rosalina is the *only* character Ganon flat out loses to.

Mainly because of two things.

1.) Flame Choke is shunned away even if you read her, it won't be easy to land. Her fast and quick rolls doesn't make her bait easy. And if you do land a choke, Luma is there to protect her (shielding will take both Luma and Rosalina's hits but with intense shield pressure). It's best to roll away after choke.

2.) Her safe aerial pressure. She has some very lingering aerial moves that she can switch around pressure you with. These moves have multiple hitboxes, which, if timed right, can be used against Ganon's shield safely.

Along with the above two major advantages she has over Ganon, there are a few other. She possibly has the best gimp, or spike game in Smash 4. Double hit down air is devastatingly good against Ganon. I've gotten away from many smart gimp attempts from many characters, but Rosa could just wait and bait.

She's not gimpable and has an unpredictable recovery.

And then there's also her Luma. Ever wondered why the Ice Climber and Ganon matchup was the worst in Brawl? For a similar reason I believe that the Rosa and Ganon matchup is the worst in Smash 4. Ganon cannot deal with characters who mess up his fundamental advantageous; flame choke, raw power and decent midrange pressure. A good Rosalina will use her Luma very expertly against a Ganon.

With all that said, this matchup comes to 65:35 Luma. For the worst matchup for Ganon, this is at least quite lift up from Brawl. Ganon still has raw power, and Rosa is still very light. You'll have to be very assertive & defensive with Luma and aggressive against Rosalina. This matchup is not impossible, but the only matchup Ganon does not have a very good shot at winning.

The only character Ganon outright loses to is Rosalina & Luma, with a 65:35.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zamus, Pikachu, Sonic & Greninja (from my conclusion so far) are all 40:60 their favour.

Everyone else is a neutral, a slight advantage, and maybe even one or two advantage.

Looks like that besides of most fast characters, Ganondorf mostly has a bad MU against Rosalina.
However, Ganondorf has a tremendously tough power, so trying to punish Rosalina won't be that hard.