The deal with Palutena...

[chipndip]

So I showed up on this forum not way too long ago, and only became active way recently (mainly for this game). I picked up Palutena because I heard she was bad, and I wanted to try out a "low-tier hero" pick, in all honesty, but I ended up getting into the character more. I know I've had a good deal of debates with the Palutena users here about a number of things, so I decided to make a thread to put everything I've picked up about the character down in one location, as well as my current opinion on them. Easier to manage that way rather than shifting through threads. After she miraculously became my second most used character in my game, and after doing a long set of matches against someone that knew about Smash on a tourney level, and can thus analyze characters in a way that makes sense (not like you guys can't, but it's more convenient to bounce ideas off of people in person, ya know?), I thought on some points for a bit, and came up with this.

Note that what I'm talking about here is default Palutena:

1) Her play style. It's not just "defensive". Now, is it hyper-offensive? Also no, but to say "she's a defensive character" just won't cut it. She's forced into being offensive in order to get things done because nothing she has can KO well out of melee range. Defensive characters can wall, kite, wait, and repeat very well. Palutena can not. Not against competent players.

Many of her extra tools that define her as a character help on defense (shield frames in her attacks, a counter, a reflect, a wind-box in her smash attacks), but her move set resembles that of a heavy character (some fast options, bu all KO moves KO early and are moderately sluggish in some fashion) while her mobility options are quick like a rush down character (her recovery and her natural movement speed and jump height). It's a weird hybrid mix that I wish worked better, but to say she's just "a defensive character" is making things too 1-dimensional based on her special move set.

2) I'm gonna get flack for this again, but Auto-Reticle is horrid. Like, just straight up bad. I've harped on this before, but I'm doing this again. It sprinkles in damage sometimes, but missing leaves you way open, it locks onto useless targets, you can't freely send out the actual projectile, it's prone to missing highly mobile targets, it doesn't get people off of you or really slow momentum, it doesn't help your own offensive efforts...just...guys...please. It doesn't mean you should never use it, but it's a bad move in general. It's nice damage to sprinkle in from a range here and there, but as a tool in her kit, the gimmick of locking onto a spot in space, rather than a character, is not efficient.

3) Her air game is actually not too good, especially when people come from below her. Not having a good air-to-ground n-air means she has to use f-air, which can be punished by throws (other characters with better A-t-G moves can at least cross-up the opponent so they don't get thrown on landing). Jumping behind for a b-air is obvious, and spamming short-hopped b-air attempts stales the move so it won't KO later, which is bad because you'll need it...a lot. U-air isn't too bad...but the move takes forever to recover from, so it makes you a sitting duck if you miss. D-air is terribad, and f-air can only do so much on its own + it's not a KO move. Teleporting to the ground will probably get you put back in the air if the opponent is quick, and counters are risky, and may not hit at weird angles and/or distances.

4) As far as scoring KOs go, she's not good at it. That's mainly because her main KO options are sluggish and force her to constantly gamble her %, or even the win, with odds that are somewhat for the opponent, rather than herself. Her smashes are slow on start-up and slow to recover, and the downward one has lousy wind-boxes in comparison to the forward one. The upward one is the odd one out, but that one has no horizontal reach + it loses KO potential and damage on the upper part of the move. It takes a strong read to land these moves, but landing them can end a stock quickly. The problem is landing it against someone that knows the match-up. Her u-air and b-air are decent KO options, but u-air needs to be done relatively high to KO early, and b-air needs to be at moderately high percentages and/or close to the boundary you're hitting them to.

I personally prefer forward smash and u-air over the others. I honestly would avoid down smash like the plague unless they buff its start-up or recovery animations.

5) Her tilt attacks are probably the worst thing about the character. Most characters have tilts that come out quickly, can set up combos, can stuff other attacks well, have good reach/knock back, and so forth. Palutena's tilts offer almost nothing to the character. If someone's grabbing the ledge, her tilts will rarely change that. They don't KO, they don't combo, and they're not fast to start or end. I have no idea why they gave her these moves. This is probably the main fault in Palutena's move set, even more than Auto-Reticle.

Conclusion) Yes, there's a lot of negative points listed here, but that happens with low-tier characters. She still has a good run speed and a useful recovery option. Also, due to her special move set and shield attacks, she doesn't struggle in the same way others do on offense. The problem with the character is that she isn't flexible in different match-ups and scenarios because her offensive tools require perfect timing and/or 1-dimensional setups, while her defensive tools don't do much in the way of keeping her out of harms way. In other words: she also struggles in very simple ways others don't have to struggle, and the trade isn't in her favor. She's not impossible to win with, and she's probably a mid-tier character at best, but that's what I'm getting from her so far. I'ma still play her, but these are what I picked up from playing her until now. Probably use her as a tertiary character to size up opponents. She's still fun to use, and she's definitely not useless.

 

[AozoraX]

I agree with the above points - I do feel like she got the short end of balance, maybe perhaps that we also don't get to play with customizable moves as well as much, since there's some kind of stigma behind it.

Pray for Wii U

 

[xnine]

A very informative post! I especially agree with the f-air game that is Palutena's bread and butter. With good mindgaming and decision making she can use it very well, but that goes for every single character in the game. I feel her options are relatively low in the air.

I disagree about AR. I think you can use it really well to force approaches and against other projectile users. I beats out and cancels out many projectiles and puts in pressure. Each shot does 3% which is pretty good damage to 'sprinkle' on the enemy. Obviously, if you are fighting Sheik then it's probably not the best idea to use AR.

Considering that I don't plan on getting good enough to be remotely tourney level and what tier she falls into won't quite affect me as much, I have a question for you. Much of your post is centered on what makes Palutena bad. Without the inclusion of custom moves, what do you think are her strong points?

 

[CCCM89]

palutena can chain down throw>Fair>grab. do this to move opponent near edge, then down throw into Dair for KOs around 30%. possibly lower. to say her air game is bad is wrong. it's just different. her Fair is a great poke and approach. it finishes fast enough to let you chain into a grab.
So from what you've said in the OP, I agree that she's not a defensive character. she's a grab character. she's an edge guarding character. Most of all, she's a platform Control Character. Play her with excessive zoning and chain grabs into Dair spikes that can come out of nowhere, and you're golden.

 

[chipndip]

A very informative post! I especially agree with the f-air game that is Palutena's bread and butter. With good mindgaming and decision making she can use it very well, but that goes for every single character in the game. I feel her options are relatively low in the air.

I disagree about AR. I think you can use it really well to force approaches and against other projectile users. I beats out and cancels out many projectiles and puts in pressure. Each shot does 3% which is pretty good damage to 'sprinkle' on the enemy. Obviously, if you are fighting Sheik then it's probably not the best idea to use AR.

Considering that I don't plan on getting good enough to be remotely tourney level and what tier she falls into won't quite affect me as much, I have a question for you. Much of your post is centered on what makes Palutena bad. Without the inclusion of custom moves, what do you think are her strong points?

Strong points:

1) Due to the power behind her moves (since she hits like a heavy-weight), she can KO really early on basically any smash attack when fighting medium or light characters, depending on positioning. U-air can KO relatively early too (about 110% ish) if you're up high enough.

2) Her reflect is probably the best reflecting move in the game. Doesn't require precise aim like Mario's, and it's not sluggish like Pit's. You can also spam the hell out of it and deter projectiles rather quickly by doing so.

3) D-throw -> f-air is a very reliable combo for 12% for a long time. Pretty much until they're ready to be KO'd. So you always have that for as long as you need it. Not too impressive since other characters obviously have more effective combos, but it's advantage against those that can't combo reliably, and it's a sure way to steadily build damage and momentum.

4) Her shield moves. Obviously.

5) Teleport can pass through gimp attempts quickly, rather than risking it for the biscuit.

palutena can chain down throw>Fair>grab. do this to move opponent near edge, then down throw into Dair for KOs around 30%. possibly lower. to say her air game is bad is wrong. it's just different. her Fair is a great poke and approach. it finishes fast enough to let you chain into a grab.
So from what you've said in the OP, I agree that she's not a defensive character. she's a grab character. she's an edge guarding character. Most of all, she's a platform Control Character. Play her with excessive zoning and chain grabs into Dair spikes that can come out of nowhere, and you're golden.

I'm sorry, but she can't d-throw -> f-air -> anything else as a true combo string. If you grabbed them again after the f-air, let alone if you hit them again at all, it just means they "fell for it". It's really just a gimmick. I do it online, but it's actually a bad habit. People in person don't fall for it when they're competent players.

Landing her d-air is the problem with her d-air. It has a bad hit-box. Like...horrid. Landing it in a scenario where it'd be greatly appreciated is extremely difficult. Also, d-throw -> d-air isn't a combo, and meteor smashes don't always KO at 30% or less. Maybe if you're hitting .

F-air is a good tool for what it's worth, but it can't cross up, so that goodwill is quickly smothered by the fact that she has no cross-ups (they REALLY help when people want to shield grab your aerials).

If she was a "platform control character", I'd be fine with calling her "defensive", since defensive characters in fighting games are primarily about controlling the screen and hiding behind strong hit-boxes. She can't do this properly. It's really hard to categorize her, really, and the solution to how she should be used more effectively isn't as simple as "land yo grabs". Rolls are stronger now, so missing (which we'll be doing more of) will be pricey.

 

[Pirunner]

Chipndip, let me commend you for this post. I admit, you left an impression on me with your other posts that was a little negative, but this was a well worded post and has made me re-evaluate my initial impressions. It takes a special sort of bravery and dedication to the free flow of information to bring up negative points in a forum that is (by its nature as a character dedicated forum) biased toward worship (pun). So instead of disagreeing, I'l say what I agree with this time.

Overall, the sentiment that she lacks options and is ridged in play-style is something I have also been on the frustrating receiving end. More then once I have lamented how often everyone else can just throw out tilts and smash attacks like its nothing, where as every one we have is a precious gift that has to be precisely placed. Every time I see zero suit follow up a forward tilt with a forward smash, or does a pivot forward tilt that doesn't take a day an a half to come out, like its the most natural thing in the world, I get a little green. Our tilts are out long enough to punish spot dodging and predictable rolls more reliably then down smash though.

I also agree that she is not 'just' defensive. I myself have been guilty of using this terminology, but its simply not the right word. The best way I can describe it is 'patient.' She has all the tools to cause people to make mistakes (AR forcing approaches, plus counter/reflectors to make people second guess) and the tools to make people really regret making them (godly smashes, and a run speed and dash attack which can punish on a large portion of the stage). Really, we are all about knowing when to be super defensive and when to be guns blazing agro; but the punishment for getting these modes wrong is severe. Not to mention, slow tilts don't help and aggressive play. Best I can come up with is that they where designed to send players across the stage to force them to approach and make more mistakes, but it doesn't feel right.

I also found her air game lacking in some respects against certain characters. Specifically, some people can beat her aerials with one of their own. Her air game looks threatening when she is below you, but when she is above I feel like its so easy for people to juggle me. Warp can get you to the ground easily, but use it wrong and you'll just be sent back up. I do want to try to use Nair more, though, as I think it might be a good way to beat out some of these problems.

And I have often felt very similar about her smash attacks. Now, I actually think that 2/3 of her smashes are fine, trageing range, power, and utility for speed (Fsmsh windbox, Usmash's goddly reach). I don't know what the deal is with down smash, but I remain convinced it doesn't actually have a hitbox; because not once, even with one character rolling right into me, has it ever hit someone. I have to resist the urge to downsmash when I see someone rolling, and go for a tilt instead. That has to be the most frustrating thing for me; downsmash and downtilt are never ok to use, and some other attacks are match-up dependent). besides giving Dsmash a hitbow that can actually punish rolls (or hit someone), I actually wish we had a larger winbox on our wing smash attacks. Then, we wouldn't be punished so hard for using them smartly spaced. A strange wish, I know.

I will defend Auto-reticle, but I think I know where the perception of it's awfulness is coming from. Most of the cast isn't fast enough with a low enough profile to make AR a bad choice to use from range to force approaches or punish with. However, most of the super popular 'top tier' characters with the exception of Bowser are (ZSS, Little Mac, Sheik, greninja). Palutena's AR is also unique in that it doesn't just 'come out,' and it doesn't intuitively 'lock on' in the way people want/expect.

All in all, I love playing as and fairly consistently win with Palutena, and that might have clouded my judgement. I can't rightly say that she is top tier because, with the exception of Bowser, all the characters who look 'top tier' right now feel like bad matchups (as in I could switch to someone else against these characters and have better luck, but the rest of the cast feels even or easy match ups). What strikes me most is how it seems so obvious that she had some sort of last minute nerf before release. Her tilts are to slow, auto-reticle has needless lock on shenanigans, windboxes feel like a utility that is useless, all make me thing their was a time in production where AR locked on even when a character was rolling, when tilts where safe, when the wind-box of smashes pushed people far enough to save you. It seems like a very Sakurai thing to do to hobble a character from a game he worked on in the name of 'fairness.'

Romantically, these nerfs and her hidden potential make her seem on paper to be super strong but in practice more conservative in the same way we think of classical gods having their power constrained by wisdom. More then once on streams I have seen people ask 'why don't we see more of those impressive Usmashes,' 'why not meet him with more aerials,' 'why not use the wind-box on Fsmash to edge guard,' in short, why doesn't the goddess use her godlike powers to smite the enemy. Us Paluetena mains (or in your case, tertiary,) have the wisdom to know the dangers. To paraphrase Robin Williams, we have "PHENOMINAL SMASHING POWERS, itty bity margin for error.

 

[chipndip]

That long reply I just read is primarily why I made that long post you read. I knew I was probably muddling up my stance on the character with a ton of negative replies to people's initial hype, but I wasn't doing it out of spite. Salt? Kinda...but not spite. It was from using the character more than I initially bargained for, out of both enjoyment and a strange self-assigned mission to use her to the extent I can and find what exactly is wrong with her. The next step is to competently get past these walls at an acceptable rate, and my standards are kinda high. >_>

But with a bit of light on the positives, f-smash is fair. The wind-box can push people out of punishing range when spaced well, and u-smash can KO even with the upper part of the move when they're weak enough + it keeps them from just jumping right over you in fear of it. Reflect can totally gimp the Olimar match-up since his f-smash is a projectile (I won a match against an Olimar main (that's where I found that he can throw combo 19-20 percent with nearly any color pikmin) by doing this today), as well as the pikmin throw special. Characters that rely too much on projectiles will be cautious around Pit, but it's even worse against Palutena.

Secondly, on the ground, anyway, she isn't the worst ever. That's why she has better matches against than . The latter has a better air game, something she falters with to a degree. To the very least, we can focus on gimping with f-air against some characters if you can chase them far enough from the stage, or we can b-air people into some forms of FD. These options actually can score KOs, and they're pretty swiggity-swaggity. I was using it against one of my friends before he started figuring out the match-up, which caused me to type this thread up. Her overall air game is lack-luster, but she's got that going for her.

N-air...I wouldn't bother too much. Already tried. It's not an air-to-ground option worth delving into. Pit's can at least pop someone into the air if he uses it A2G-style, and others can cross up. Hers isn't rapid enough to pester with continuous hit-boxes, nor is it a 1-shot move, so it's really just a stronger juggle tool at lower percentages after a d-throw (it is a true combo if you're quick enough, for 15% + pummel damage). You could try A2A encounters, but since the hit-box is close to her body, I'd assume it'd lose to b-airs and f-airs. Maybe try aggressively moving into the opponent with it?

Lastly, summing her up as "patient" is probably the best way to do it. Points for that. I'm personally trying to work on that for all my character choices, but her more so.

 

[Big-Cat]

She's a whiff punishing character.

 

[scalpel]

Palutena doesn't have a single OP aspect. This is why people don't like playing her. She's too balanced that she becomes bland. In all honesty she's really not that fun to play. People play her for novelty, and to be unique - not to be effective or efficient.

 

[Djent]

^ nope. She's not OP overall, but Super Speed and Lightweight are stupid, stupid moves.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

^ nope. She's not OP overall, but Super Speed and Lightweight are stupid, stupid moves.

Imagine if Diddy Kong had Lightweight....

 

[Apple Jaxx]

I agree with the overall sentiment of her character here. I've been exclusively playing Palutena as of late, so much so that I know have the most wins/losses/KOs/deaths with her than any of my other mains. Even though she has some obvious disadvantages (e.g. no tilts) I still find playing her extremely addicting. Maybe it's because she's high risk/moderate reward and requires some hard reads for kills. Every interaction feels with someone like a coin toss with the exception of her really bad MUs.

Gotta say I didn't expect to get so involved with her character at first. I picked her up initially because of the similarities with Zelda who I used to play. Now I really only feel comfortable playing her now.

Overall, the sentiment that she lacks options and is ridged in play-style is something I have also been on the frustrating receiving end. More then once I have lamented how often everyone else can just throw out tilts and smash attacks like its nothing, where as every one we have is a precious gift that has to be precisely placed. Every time I see zero suit follow up a forward tilt with a forward smash, or does a pivot forward tilt that doesn't take a day an a half to come out, like its the most natural thing in the world, I get a little green. Our tilts are out long enough to punish spot dodging and predictable rolls more reliably then down smash though.

This so much. I envy how easily people throw out tilts and don't have to worry about ending lag or retaliation from the other player. In fact I played a Link and Toon Linkstoday who just kept throwing out f.tilts on my approach or near the edge and it was surprisingly effective at times.

 

[Rainiris]

I gotta agree on the input lag.

I mained mario in Melee because it offered some counter options when I wasp laying my friends, who usually went for Link and Samus, so I had to take on both of them at once. The cape and the quick grabs did the trick for me. I inmediatelly detected Palutena to be a Control character since she has both shut down skills, reflection and counter.

What i'm surprised that is not mentioned is that Palutena has one of the most, if not the strongest Dash attack in the game. It breaks through Yoshi's egg, Wario's Moto(sp, Motorbyke?), Cap'n Falcon's Side and Down special, etc. Using counter effectively shuts down the game into a grab and run game, which puts you in advantage since she has, as already stated, one of the best Dash attacks in the game. This makes the opponent airborn which can be followed up by Auto Reticle or Up-Air. With some eye it can be followed by an Upwards Smash, too.

in fact, Upward Smash is possibly her best smash, while her wing smashes remain as punishers. It can troll some counters, recoveries.

Her Upward Air is the strongest of her Air attacks, too. Has the hitbox the rest of her aerials lack, is multi-hit, good knockback to call out for game, and is stronger than popular landing options (most Down Air attacks from the popular characters like ZSS, and Down Special from Yoshi, Bowser's, and the like). This forces teh opponent into a defensive position - which allows you to land a dash attack they can't counter with their aerial.

Auto Reticle is a punisher. Creates pressure on ledge recovery on both forms, self and opponent, punishers standers, makes a good followup after a throw, and when spamming it properly, it can turn the tables. It's also the only projectile attack I saw that cannot be reflected back to it's owner, since it's shoot in a perfect diagonal direciton. This puts AR into an advantageous position against characters with reflection options (like fox, falco, mario, Ditto).

It goes without saying that her Reflection wall effectively shuts down projectile users, whose majority have horrid Melee capapbilities, unlike Palutena. And if they don't, they still don't have Palutena's dash.

With all this averageness, in paper all you need to win a game is to keep reading your opponent. Reflection forces projectile users into melee, and Counter forces Melee opponents into Grab. Pure Control going on here. This would make for a balanced character, if it didn't have that horrid ending lag on most of her moves, not just the side attacks, her counter has warm up frames where it is not actually active (unlike other counters), like her Upward Smash where the animation will still go out and not do any damage(thankfulyl the window for htis is incredibly small). This makes her cycle slower than faster hands (rather than faster opponents).

What do you mean by cycle, you say? Like, the ammount of actions a character is cappable of executing per each action the other character executes. Even Palutena's roll has ending lag, and it's a friggin teleport. It even lacks some invul frames other characters have on it. So, while you and your opponent roll at the same time, while palutena is ending her animation, most characters can already pull out a grab. This is extremally obvious on her side attacks, or a failed grab.

Now, the slower speed is justified given the average nature of the character (since in the other side of the coin, you can counter all strategies with a few braincells). It's overdone, though. Things get worser playing online since you have to add Warm Up and Ending Lag as part of the actual lag in the game. And you find out any player just spamming A can get the hit faster than you. I had reflection walls getting casted (CASTED) after being hit by projectiles, and jumping in land when I wanted to execute a mid air jump. This kind of lag (know nas input lag) is extremally hurtful to mind reading games, since it's too late to react some or most of the time.

Otherwise, her counter would be able to break several air combos.