The Death of Competitive Gaming -- The Average Gamer?

[Fortress | Sveet]

if making a game in depth will attract ~5% more players.. but cost an extra ~20% developing it then of course nintendo don't care, its all about money

This was my entire point in the OP. Because of this fact, is there any way that we can get real, solid games in the future? Will some company step up to say, "Hey, we know it will cost a little extra to make this game better, but our customers deserve it and will respect us for it"?

 

[xbombr]

That depends if they determine that the customers deserving it and respecting them for it will earn them enough extra money to at least cover the extra costs of production and add a significant amount to their profits that makes it worth more than pushing out another game without any depth.

 

[Mew2King]

you hurt my soul good sir

and i root for you for brawl and melee too

/tears

brawl + changes all the time and cannot make a standard this way

Also I am quite upset because I played brawl+ a bit before Pound4, like a week before, and I fought Vanz with my DDD and I beat him for 2 hours straight only losing like 2 games or so I think in that time period

so Vanz went on the boards and got DDD nerfed A LOTTTTT and since then I have hated Brawl+ until they decide to make Kirby's F smash stronger.

Also Ally won a tourney with Snake so they nerfed Snake I believe at SNES or pound4 or something Snake and Wario (not sure if they nerfed wario although I doubt he needs to be I heard he was just average but then again idk either)

like seriously stop nerfing **** a game like that can never be standard. You have to play what 99% of the world plays and knows about. Brawl+ and Brawl- are just events for fun

 

[Niko45]

Idk if you look at the incredible range of skill level in melee, does Brawl really have that potential?

If you put Mango against somebody playing Melee for the first time ever he'd probably be able to 99 stock the guy.

I just think in Brawl you'd hit a ceiling much earlier than that where it just isn't actually possible to get that much better than someone because the game doesn't have the depth. Brawl is still much younger than melee tho.

 

[Vro]

I'm interested to hear from M2K and Ally about the deep aspects of the game. We as Melee players do overshadow the small technicalities and nuances that Brawl has to offer.

Melee is obviously deeper though, but games like these, to be TRUELY mastered, is at such a level that you guys do not understand. There are ways to cover options or build overall better strategies that are still applicable even when guaranteed combos aren't available. Hitting people and putting them in a situation where you can cover their common options with something good becomes a large part of the game

This quote is amazing. Just from watching M2K I've learned this lesson so well. Even when things aren't guaranteed, you can still press the advantage.

Brawl is dumb because you lose options and it becomes a reaction game. There, I said it.

 

[n1000]

This was my entire point in the OP. Because of this fact, is there any way that we can get real, solid games in the future? Will some company step up to say, "Hey, we know it will cost a little extra to make this game better, but our customers deserve it and will respect us for it"?

A comparison with Hollywood is in order. More than 500 films see theatrical release every year. Video game statistics were harder to find but there are some 1300-2000 games released annually. This number is quite a bit larger than Hollywood theatrical releases because of all the shovelware which is analogous to straight to DVD garbage and because foreign releases are included.

I see a handful of American movies in theaters a year, wasting my time with all but three or four of them. Don't misunderstand, there are loads of good American movies, the US has been putting out three or four good movies a year for a lot of years.

So the ratio of quality stuff sucks *** in Hollywood too. Studios want money. It was always about money. Four Hollywood releases a year excite critical audiences and only one or two of them will ever be called great. Expert gamers cannot expect more than this. The games industry is in its infancy, we'll be fine.

Remember kids, never support casual bull**** and actually buy and play good games instead of lamenting The Death while all the good developers rage.

Sources:
film release stats(pdf)

games

 

[pockyD]

Idk if you look at the incredible range of skill level in melee, does Brawl really have that potential?

If you put Mango against somebody playing Melee for the first time ever he'd probably be able to 99 stock the guy.

the problem is that he would also be able to 99stock the guy without thinking at all by simply applying pure tech skill that the other player isn't even aware exists

as if the other player didn't know he could take the gloves off

 

[GHNeko]

brawl + changes all the time and cannot make a standard this way

...But we're stopping for half a year...

Also I am quite upset because I played brawl+ a bit before Pound4, like a week before, and I fought Vanz with my DDD and I beat him for 2 hours straight only losing like 2 games or so I think in that time period

There were plans to nerf D3 before that night. :|

so Vanz went on the boards and got DDD nerfed A LOTTTTT and since then I have hated Brawl+ until they decide to make Kirby's F smash stronger.

Fsmash was buffed. Like twice.

Also Ally won a tourney with Snake so they nerfed Snake I believe at SNES or pound4 or something Snake and Wario (not sure if they nerfed wario although I doubt he needs to be I heard he was just average but then again idk either)

Neither Snake/Wario were nerfed actually.

like seriously stop nerfing **** a game like that can never be standard. You have to play what 99% of the world plays and knows about. Brawl+ and Brawl- are just events for fun

We did. ;_;

 

[Black Mantis]

Ill admit that the scrub mentality can be annoying. But the competitive community isn't completely blameless and has its fair share of jerks (or maybe more) as well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the problem is that he would also be able to 99stock the guy without thinking at all by simply applying pure tech skill that the other player isn't even aware exists

as if the other player didn't know he could take the gloves off

I'd argue that things like lcanceling do add depth. It adds an element of consistency and precision that would otherwise not be there. Similar to a moving shot in SC, just imagine if right clicking a fleeing enemy unit caused it to do perfect moving shots, because when would you ever want to not moving shot?

So the ratio of quality stuff sucks *** in Hollywood too. Studios want money. It was always about money. Four Hollywood releases a year excite critical audiences and only one or two of them will ever be called great. Expert gamers cannot expect more than this. The games industry is in its infancy, we'll be fine.

But i dont even see 1 good release a year. I can't tell you the last time i've bought a game where it actually was good. Must have been before i could buy games for myself.

 

[Cosmo!]

i agree w/ m2k

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

brawl + changes all the time and cannot make a standard this way

so Vanz went on the boards and got DDD nerfed A LOTTTTT and since then I have hated Brawl+ until they decide to make Kirby's F smash stronger.

Also Ally won a tourney with Snake so they nerfed Snake I believe at SNES or pound4 or something Snake and Wario (not sure if they nerfed wario although I doubt he needs to be I heard he was just average but then again idk either)

like seriously stop nerfing **** a game like that can never be standard. You have to play what 99% of the world plays and knows about. Brawl+ and Brawl- are just events for fun

WTF? I hate brawl partly because it burns my eyes out, but why nerf anything that isn't ******** as F***? like in melee sheik's d-throw to the point she can still combo and tech-chase just not chain throw everyone. or the 1percent of of fox's up-smash.

Really if they nerfed anything that isn't ******** like what maybe snake's up-tilt(however it was techically nerfed due to falling speed) or inf combos/unescapeable chain throws that aren't really hard like fox's waveshine against a wall(lacks set ups for a wall).

But really In truth if people are doing that all over the place like they have with MK what's wrong with them? Not to hate but if they are hating on MK, then brawl+ cast after a hour or 2 of playing WTF? I'm sorry but I couldn't take a stock off of your sheik and I didn't B*** like a hoe nor did I john or feel bad or that it was impossible. I tryed to learn and do better even if it was pichu and I SOULD never be able to land anything on anyone.

Please don't farther the ssbm vs ssbb topic this is just to m2k and I would really like to know why.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ICG is crazy.

 

[Jam Stunna]

WARNING: INCOMING RANT

I remember when you could go into a games store and not see cooking mama on the shelf.

This is exactly why no one listens to competitive gamers. How does a company like Majesco producing a game like Cooking Mama (which, by the way, has sold more than FOUR MILLION copies) hurt you, Smash, or competitive gaming in any conceivable way?

Is it that hard to fathom that people besides us play games, and that they enjoy different things? Does gaming always have to be serious business? If games like Cooking Mama didn't exist, would that have any kind of material impact on competitive gaming? What does the existence of any other game that you don't play have to do with you?

Man, nothing pisses me off more in these kinds of conversations than when people start saying, "I remember when..." Guess what? You don't remember anything because those halcyon days of youth that you so fondly recall are a figment of your imagination. There have always been games like Cooking Mama, there have always been more bad games than good ones, and the only thing that showing disdain for those things does is make all of us look like jerks.

 

[DoctorBendz]

The only company that really support competetive gaming is capcom. They have a loyal and dedicated fanbase that they support with their titles. Look at what they're giving us SSF4, TvC and MvC3. That is ****.

I think the OP should've used "Difficult" or "Deep" rather than "competitive". Or, at least that's the angle I personally understand it from. SSF4, and MvC3 have nothing on HDR and MvC2 as far as technicality and depth goes, because Capcom wants to make their new games (which happen to be fighters) more accessible to people who can't actually play games well, just like everyone else does. I can't speak on TvC because I haven't played it.

Here's a good example from Guitar Hero: they took out the most difficult part of TTFAF when they put it in GH: Greatest Hits. Like, in the time span from GH3 to GH Greatest Hits, they decided that difficulty wasn't making them money, so they would Nerf the **** out of the TTFAF note chart so that people could feel good about themselves and say they beat it on Expert.

Here's another example: In whatever GH is out now (I stopped playing because they're all too ****ing easy at this point), they put a Dethklok song (Laser Cannon Deth Sentence) in as downloadable. They also put a difficulty for drums called "EXPERT PLUS" in order to chart double bass. THEY DID NOT CHART DOUBLE BASS IN THE DETHKLOK SONG ON EXPERT PLUS because it was too difficult. DESPITE the fact that the difficulty only exists specifically TO CHART DOUBLE BASS. WTF. It makes my head hurt how stupid that is. They created a new difficulty to appeal to people who want difficulty, and then don't put all the notes in the song because it will be too hard. It makes me want to run up to the nearest living thing and kill it.

TL;DR:
Every new game recently has been easier than it's prequel. Example: GH created a NEW difficulty setting ABOVE EXPERT to appeal to 'hardcore' gamers (since the new ones are easy as ****), and then didn't chart all the notes in a song because it was too hard...

EDIT: @ Jam Stunna: The more that easy games are made, sold, and gain popularity, the more incentive there is for companies to nerf all their games in order to appeal to a wider audience, rather than strive to make an actually good, challenging, deep game. That's what the existance of ****ty games has to do with this. That's why Legendary in Halo 3 is a joke, in addition to the examples listed above. People who make games don't just ignore what's going on in the industry...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey Jam Stunna everyone's point is if it's easier, quicker, and makes more money why not make only non-Competitive games, really being competitive is very important and if you make it so everyones a winner LOL at the future. Games become more about it looking flashy and simple. THe simpler the better in some cases sadly. Games are meant to take skill of some kind.

WTf at doc bendz post Why? People shouldn't be treated like that, that's insulting, ohh it's to hard dear is us we have to make everyone a winner.

 

[Massive]

M2K is right about Brawl+, there are so many versions, alterations, etc. that come out constantly that make it impossible to have a final 'release version'. It will never be competitive on the scale of any smash game simply because the same version will rarely be seen twice.

The average gamer helps us more than hurts us. There has been a boon to the melee community lately and it can be attributed to the widespread acceptance of video games. Smashers have always been a statistically small group of people compared to the gaming population as a whole, even if 1 out of 10,000 gamers (casual or otherwise) turn into competitive smash players, when the upcoming generation (numbering in the millions, I'm not even kidding) pick it up, we're going to have loads of people joining us. We will persist, and all we have to do is make our game visible and accessible.

tl;dr version: more people playing=more people added at competitive level

 

[AllyKnight]

u madddddddd?

 

[GHNeko]

M2K is right about Brawl+, there are so many versions, alterations, etc. that come out constantly that make it impossible to have a final 'release version'. It will never be competitive on the scale of any smash game simply because the same version will rarely be seen twice.

Not entirely true. Sets are not released so quickly that there is not time for metagame to flourish. And set releases are coming further and further apart, and the changes between versions are growing less drastic. If anything. 6.0 vs 7.0 do not offer that many character changes and are mostly stage changes and mechanic fixes.

 

[Jam Stunna]

EDIT: @ Jam Stunna: The more that easy games are made, sold, and gain popularity, the more incentive there is for companies to nerf all their games in order to appeal to a wider audience, rather than strive to make an actually good, challenging, deep game. That's what the existance of ****ty games has to do with this. That's why Legendary in Halo 3 is a joke, in addition to the examples listed above. People who make games don't just ignore what's going on in the industry...

You can say that ****ty games breed more ****ty games, but you haven't proven that. Games that sell well get emulated, and understandably so. If you make the statement that there's a general trend in the industry towards easier games, then okay, that's something to talk about. However, I do not accept that [insert game here] has ruined all of gaming simply because it doesn't hew to our standard of competition.

Hey Jam Stunna everyone's point is if it's easier, quicker, and makes more money why not make only non-Competitive games, really being competitive is very important and if you make it so everyones a winner LOL at the future. Games become more about it looking flashy and simple. THe simpler the better in some cases sadly. Games are meant to take skill of some kind.

Because different people like different games? You don't want every game company making Cooking Mama knock-offs. Fine. But have you considered that the people who enjoy games like Cooking Mama don't every game to be SUPER HARD MODE?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Not every game is or should be uber WTf hardmode, it's just easier and easier in most cases.The only skillless game i've ever played was animal crossing. Well depends on your veiws or RPGs being skillless or not. Most take some level of thinking skill. I'm thinking of turn based ones with limitless time and not like pokemon, some may be easy.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Jam Stunna is right, honestly.

I mean...as much as we enjoy the competitive aspect of things...the competitive gamers (in general) have become somewhat of elitists in a bad way. A good deal of them don't even know how to have fun anymore.

Gaming has changed since we've been children. (since I started playing when I was 3...my experience spans 80's into now.) My personal opinion is that most games aren't up to the same quality, overall. However, Fighting games have evolved into taking minimal and making you think how to make the most out of it. Which is what separates the good from the bad.

I personally say wait and see what the game has to offer fully before calling it quits. Who knows....SC2 might even more amazing. As far as anything else...so far it's been proven that in general the game shows to be deeper than initial thoughts.

 

[Massive]

Not entirely true. Sets are not released so quickly that there is not time for metagame to flourish. And set releases are coming further and further apart, and the changes between versions are growing less drastic. If anything. 6.0 vs 7.0 do not offer that many character changes and are mostly stage changes and mechanic fixes.

Totally understandable, and expected from a point of the original developers. You guys can and will release a final version, but since it's a fan made modification with a directly alterable core, I can almost guarantee you it will be altered by other people after you let go of it.

I think what you're doing is awesome anyway, but having been involved in fan made modifications before, it's very easy for them to become tainted or heavily altered by other people after you relinquish final control.

 

[tubes]

TL;DR:
Every new game recently has been easier than it's prequel. Example: GH created a NEW difficulty setting ABOVE EXPERT to appeal to 'hardcore' gamers (since the new ones are easy as ****), and then didn't chart all the notes in a song because it was too hard...

EDIT: @ Jam Stunna: The more that easy games are made, sold, and gain popularity, the more incentive there is for companies to nerf all their games in order to appeal to a wider audience, rather than strive to make an actually good, challenging, deep game. That's what the existance of ****ty games has to do with this. That's why Legendary in Halo 3 is a joke, in addition to the examples listed above. People who make games don't just ignore what's going on in the industry...

Solution: Buy only multiplayer games.

 

[Roneblaster]

i dont think pocky is arguing AT's dont make a game deeper, because they do. Hes arguing that AT's dont make a game better.

feel free to correct me if im wrong pocky.

multiplayer games are being dumbed down too tubes. or atleast more n00b friendly.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

One theory is, with the rise with noncompetitive games, competitive games are left out to dry and eventually they become less well known over time. The competitive gamers cant find competitive games because no light is shined upon them, the competitive games are eventually dropped because of no sales. This is the extreme.

Another is that, crappy games bring in noncompetitive gamers, eventually they become bored of playing these piss easy games and demand more competitive games, and instead of hurting the competitive scene it helps it. This is more likely of the two but both are possible.

 

[X1-12]

DUHHHHHHHHHHH


The easier a game is, the faster you complete it, the faster you buy another game






if its a choice between people buying 3 **** games a month or them buying 1 'good' game a month theres no choice

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Another is that, crappy games bring in noncompetitive gamers, eventually they become bored of playing these piss easy games and demand more competitive games, and instead of hurting the competitive scene it helps it. This is more likely of the two but both are possible.

The problem is the fact if they are turned off by hard games it will make them lazy to games and what do lazy people do? It's like a habit it's hard to break.

 

[n1000]

ITT: People who don't understand markets, people who don't understand arguments, and amazing posters like Merkuri and ICG.

And Sveet (since we and Jam Stunna are the only ones posting anything worthwhile) there is more than a single good release a year. What sort of games do you like? Super Street Fighter 4 came out two days ago. Certainly that's a competitive game.

 

[X1-12]

The easier a game is, the faster you complete it, the faster you buy another game

Its all money, It all is..

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

WTF are people reading my name before they read my post like they did for VBM. I've seen once were he made some very good points and everyone said he was dumb. I've thought about both sides for about every single post on this thread so far and I think i've given a fair point for some of them. I've read what other people have posted andI never look at their names because names aren't for jugding them by.

I argee with x1-12 for the most part

 

[tubes]

i dont think pocky is arguing AT's dont make a game deeper, because they do. Hes arguing that AT's dont make a game better.

feel free to correct me if im wrong pocky.

multiplayer games are being dumbed down too tubes. or atleast more n00b friendly.

You can't dumb down the players and thus the challenge of getting better and being the best still exists.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

The problem is the fact if they are turned off by hard games it will make them lazy to games and what do lazy people do? It's like a habit it's hard to break.

So your saying it's not that gaming is in trouble but the whole world because everyone is lazy.

There will always be lazy people but there will aslo be people looking for a challenge.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

You can't dumb down the players and thus the challenge of getting better and being the best still exists.

In fact you can dumb down people

 

[tubes]

In fact you can dumb down people

Those people weren't dumbed down, they were already dumb. The industry just caters to this majority.

So just don't play with dumb people. I mean don't we all go to tournaments because we want to improve our game and we realize we never will if we don't play with better players?

Like you wouldn't play on easy mode if you really wanted a challenge. You'd bump it up to insane.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

So your saying it's not that gaming is in trouble but the whole world because everyone is lazy.

There will always be lazy people but there will aslo be people looking for a challenge.

I was saying that when you get your nose cleaned for you for everything you don't care about trying because you don't need to, like some guy who lives off his parents till he is 40, there is no reason in his mind to try.

My little brother got his butt wiped for him for everything and now he is lazy and doesn't want to try.

@ tubes good point

 

[n1000]

A+ would read again

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I was saying that when you get your nose cleaned for you for everything you don't care about trying because you don't need to, like some guy who lives off his parents till he is 40, there is no reason in his mind to try.

My little brother got his butt wiped for him for everything and now he is lazy and doesn't want to try.

@ tubes good point

good point, but what about those what get tired of being cared for? They have to grow up sooner or later.

 

[X1-12]

The easier a game is, the faster you complete it, the faster you buy another game

It is ALL about money, it all is.


Most of you are reading further into this than the companies do, They don't care about us They just care about money.



I'm sorry if it offends you, I'm sorry if it goes against what you think, but its all money. No-one cares. Deal with it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

good point, but what about those what get tired of being cared for? They have to grow up sooner or later.

Well if they do keep in mind there is only a small percent that would think beyond what there is like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ei7LqbYb8M&feature=related

Their minds are like this they would have to be reached like anyone esle in the world. We are all blind till we know.