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The Debate Hall Social Thread

Dre89

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I can't respond to everything at the moment, but I will say that when I said QM was a law, I was referring to the spontaneous causation etc.

If the potentiality for such erradic causality always exists, then that is consistency and rational order.

True chaos would be if the laws of causality, gravity etc. were subject to fluctuation, change, new laws randomly coming in etc.

:phone:
 

blazedaces

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Causality is empirically justified.
Hume would argue that causality is literally impossible to prove fully. I don't just mean that we can never know that the future will be similar to the past, I mean that there is no way to prove causation, only correlation.

Also, Dre... are you actually attempting to prove portions of quantum mechanics fallacious through philosophical nonsense? Please, I beg you to go read up on it further before attempting to do so... You might as well be trying to prove gravity wrong...

-blazed
 

adumbrodeus

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I'd say math is applied logic ... I say that math starts when you begin creating objects with properties (i.e. sets).



There is no CONFIRMED truth but logic itself.

Anyway, it depends also what you mean by confirming observations. The observations themselves exist. Sure, it is possible that you're just "in the Matrix" or whatever, but you can consider the world that consists of your observations.
How can it be just confirmed if there is no truth beyond what can be logically proven? There simply is no truth other then logic if you take that definition. Period.


As far as confirming observations, prove anything that your tell you is actually there without using your senses themselves unless you can prove that sense without referencing to another sense.

That is what logic requires.



I don't see how mathematics is prior to logic. Surely maths (that's what we call it here) must assume principles such as the law of identity and such correct?
Those principals are mathematical principals. They only explicitly developed in logic as part of it's formalization into math.

Secondly, logic doesn't assume the principles of non-contradiction, identity, excluded middle, because logic is the combinations of those principles. Logic is not separate from those principles.
Which is why it assumes them. Definition of Axium.

The reasons those principles are not just mere assumptions is because existence is impossible without it, and we know existence exists.
Define "existence".

Also Adumb you need to be more specific when you say to logically prove something it must be observable. Do you mean observe empirically? Because I can logically prove several things without the need for observation, such as the fact I can't be here and in Scotland at the same time, that an object that I've never experienced before had a cause etc.

Secondly, unless you're a scientisimist/traditional empiricist like Rvkevin or Altf4, logic and observation are distinct. Observations are verified by logic.
I'm actually arguing against ballin's position, by explaining why it doesn't work.


To logically prove something you must move from confirmed fact to confirmed fact, namely deduction. This is impossible to do in totally because we can never confirm our senses as telling the truth.


Yea, it's how the universe works, but it's impractical as hell to actually function that way, so we have to add basic assumptions about reality to actually function in life.
 

AltF4

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I think it's pretty clear that science and logic cooperate, not compete. Logic and reason are what get you from one conclusion to the next. It guides you forward in telling you what naturally should occur given any set of circumstances. All I'm saying is that while logic itself isn't "fallible", the human process of using it is. Observation has to be used frequently to re-ground the argument in reality.

I also hope that it's obvious I'm talking about a specific and (possibly narrow) form of debate / conversation. IE: One which involves discovering an objective truth about the world. Obviously religious debates usually are of this form. But also Climate Change, Evolution, etc... In these cases, one side of the debate is objectively right, and one is objectively wrong. The point of the debate is to discover who is who.

But there's lots of other kinds of debates where different methodologies apply. Policy debates (what law should be) for instance. These debates are more about trying to convince the audience than they are about being proven "right". There is no objective right and wrong, just numbers of supporters. There's lots of others.

Don't for a moment picture me insisting scientific proof from my mother when she tells me that her pies are delicious. They just are. (And could be scientifically verified, actually. They're delicious)
 

ballin4life

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disproving determinism
How can it be just confirmed if there is no truth beyond what can be logically proven? There simply is no truth other then logic if you take that definition. Period.
Uh, it can't be confirmed. That's what I just said.

As far as confirming observations, prove anything that your tell you is actually there without using your senses themselves unless you can prove that sense without referencing to another sense.

That is what logic requires.
Yes. I'm saying you can't do that.

I'm actually arguing against ballin's position, by explaining why it doesn't work.


To logically prove something you must move from confirmed fact to confirmed fact, namely deduction. This is impossible to do in totally because we can never confirm our senses as telling the truth.


Yea, it's how the universe works, but it's impractical as hell to actually function that way, so we have to add basic assumptions about reality to actually function in life.
The existence of our sensory impressions is fact though. They might come from dreams, or alien experiments or a virtual reality machine or whatever, but they exist.


Science, by the way, really does just boil down to logic with a LOT of premises. E.g. "If gravity accelerates objects at 9.8m/s^2, then if I drop a ball from 4.9m it will take 1 second to hit the ground" is true. It's determining one's belief in the premise that's the hard part.
 

Dre89

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Blazed- No I'm not contesting quantum mechanics at all. I have never contested a scientific point.

What I'm saying is that the law of erradic causality is itself consistent, which is not a scientific issue.

Contesting quantum mechanics would be to reject the idea that quantum fluctuations etc. happen, which I'm not doing.

If anyone here thinks I've ever contested a scientific point, or even think I have an issue with science at all, then your galaxies away from understanding my arguments.

:phone:
 

adumbrodeus

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Uh, it can't be confirmed. That's what I just said.
The point is, under your definition of truth, if it can't be confirmed then it is not truth.



The existence of our sensory impressions is fact though. They might come from dreams, or alien experiments or a virtual reality machine or whatever, but they exist.
Under your definition of truth, that is not truth.


Science, by the way, really does just boil down to logic with a LOT of premises. E.g. "If gravity accelerates objects at 9.8m/s^2, then if I drop a ball from 4.9m it will take 1 second to hit the ground" is true. It's determining one's belief in the premise that's the hard part.
The point of science is that you can confirm every fact by observation if you don't believe it. Perform an experiment, and if it's different, you falsified the null hypothesis! Science marches on.

However this ability depends on the ultimate premise that our eyes do not lie to us.

I think it's pretty clear that science and logic cooperate, not compete. Logic and reason are what get you from one conclusion to the next. It guides you forward in telling you what naturally should occur given any set of circumstances. All I'm saying is that while logic itself isn't "fallible", the human process of using it is. Observation has to be used frequently to re-ground the argument in reality.

I also hope that it's obvious I'm talking about a specific and (possibly narrow) form of debate / conversation. IE: One which involves discovering an objective truth about the world. Obviously religious debates usually are of this form. But also Climate Change, Evolution, etc... In these cases, one side of the debate is objectively right, and one is objectively wrong. The point of the debate is to discover who is who.

But there's lots of other kinds of debates where different methodologies apply. Policy debates (what law should be) for instance. These debates are more about trying to convince the audience than they are about being proven "right". There is no objective right and wrong, just numbers of supporters. There's lots of others.

Don't for a moment picture me insisting scientific proof from my mother when she tells me that her pies are delicious. They just are. (And could be scientifically verified, actually. They're delicious)
I'm merely pointing out the flaws in ballin's definition of truth.

Under ballin's definition it would not be true that your mother's pies are delicious. That should tell you all you need to know.
 

ballin4life

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The point is, under your definition of truth, if it can't be confirmed then it is not truth.
No. As I said before, there is a difference between truth and confirmation (i.e. knowledge).

Under your definition of truth, that is not truth.
Why? It is true that the perceptions exist. I didn't say anything about the source or meaning or whatever.

The point of science is that you can confirm every fact by observation if you don't believe it. Perform an experiment, and if it's different, you falsified the null hypothesis! Science marches on.
uh yeah I agree.

However this ability depends on the ultimate premise that our eyes do not lie to us.
Not really. The idea that observations describe a "real world" depends on that premise. And even so, you still would have shown the statement (The "real world" exists AND heavier objects fall faster) is false. It's just adding another premise.

Under ballin's definition it would not be true that your mother's pies are delicious. That should tell you all you need to know.
But the perception of his mother's pies can be delicious.
 

adumbrodeus

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No. As I said before, there is a difference between truth and confirmation (i.e. knowledge).
But your definition DEPENDS on confirmation.

Your definition defines truth as based on logic. Logically, you are required to have true premises.


Why? It is true that the perceptions exist. I didn't say anything about the source or meaning or whatever.
However the fact that perceptions exist isn't logically sufficient.



Not really. The idea that observations describe a "real world" depends on that premise. And even so, you still would have shown the statement (The "real world" exists AND heavier objects fall faster) is false. It's just adding another premise.
But adding an illogical premise makes the entire thing illogical. So in order to work logically, you must move from logically confirmed premise to logically confirmed premise.

Otherwise, you could simply take any premise that was internally consistent and draw any logical conclusion whatsoever from that. For example, make conclusions based on the existence of a tea cup floating around the earth that is too small to be detectable by human instruments.



But the perception of his mother's pies can be delicious.
It CAN, but can it logically be proven without using illogical premises? That he thinks that his mother's pies are delicious or that that's even his mother's pies in the first place?


Yes, it's easy enough with PRACTICAL premises, but if you make logic the definition, it's impossible. That's why your definition of truth is untenable.
 

ballin4life

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But your definition DEPENDS on confirmation.

Your definition defines truth as based on logic. Logically, you are required to have true premises.
No, you can have conditional truths still.

E.g. (Men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal) is true. So is (If gravity accelerates things at 9.8m/s^2, then if I drop an object from 4.9m it will take 1s to fall).

If-then statements still work.

However the fact that perceptions exist isn't logically sufficient.
Why not?

But adding an illogical premise makes the entire thing illogical. So in order to work logically, you must move from logically confirmed premise to logically confirmed premise.

Otherwise, you could simply take any premise that was internally consistent and draw any logical conclusion whatsoever from that. For example, make conclusions based on the existence of a tea cup floating around the earth that is too small to be detectable by human instruments.
But that's totally legitimate and totally logical. IF such a teapot exists and IF gravity holds true, then that teapot exerts a gravitational force on other objects like you or me. That is true.

Of course, if I were to just say "the teapot exerts a gravitational force on me" then we would have to consider the premises (and we wouldn't be able to determine truth).

But then when we consider the law of excluded middle, we realize that the following statement is true:

(EITHER (teapot exists and gravity holds) OR NOT(teapot exists and gravity holds) )
and likewise:
(EITHER (teapot exerts a gravitational force on me) OR NOT(teapot exerts a gravitational force on me) )

So one or the other is TRUE without premises, but we don't KNOW which. Truth and knowledge are different.
 
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http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/18/news/economy/cut_cap_balance/index.htm

They torpedo'd it because it was a load of ****.

Furthermore, what if it had contained something along the lines of a full government shutdown? Would you still claim that the democrats need to "share the blame"? Raising the debt ceiling has been a matter of course for the last 10 years, and now all of a sudden everything blows up? No. The republicans attached (quite frankly ridiculous) conditions to their cooperation on a bill that was necessary to keep the world from spiraling into a GIGANTIC depression!

I'm sorry if I seem a little angry, but I've heard this exact same "everyone is equally at fault" line too often. It's just not ****ing true. This one lies squarely on the republicans for playing chicken with our economy.
 

ballin4life

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But the bill that got passed was worse because it didn't cut anything.

I'm just saying you can't say "oh the Republicans wanted to topple everything because they wouldn't accept tax cuts" when the exact same thing is true about the Democrats rejecting Cut Cap and Balance.

Notice in the article you linked that the FIRST THING MENTIONED is how the Democrats won't pass it and Obama will veto it. The second thing is some Keynesian stuff about the economy. The third thing is how it would put pressure on entitlements. Uh, that's the point. We can't afford these entitlements at the rate they are projected to grow. The fourth is more Keynesian arguments about the economy. The fifth is that it would make it hard to increase taxes. Again, THAT'S THE POINT.

So I really don't get it.

Furthermore, what if it had contained something along the lines of a full government shutdown? Would you still claim that the democrats need to "share the blame"? Raising the debt ceiling has been a matter of course for the last 10 years, and now all of a sudden everything blows up? No. The republicans attached (quite frankly ridiculous) conditions to their cooperation on a bill that was necessary to keep the world from spiraling into a GIGANTIC depression!
Uh ridiculous in your opinion. The Republicans claimed that the idea of increasing taxes was ridiculous in their opinion. That's my only point. The Democrats were being JUST AS PARTISAN as the Republicans.

I'm sorry if I seem a little angry, but I've heard this exact same "everyone is equally at fault" line too often. It's just not ****ing true. This one lies squarely on the republicans for playing chicken with our economy.
Once again the Democrats said they would reject Cut Cap and Balance rather than raise the debt ceiling. THEY were playing chicken. HOW ARE THEY NOT TO BLAME ALSO THEN?
 

rvkevin

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Ballin, the point is that this was a necessary step for the country and the parties should not have used it as leverage for what they want. If the Democrats tried to attach tax increases to the same amount that the Republicans wanted to cut, then you would have a point, but they didn't. The fact of the matter is that the Republications used this situation for their own purposes. Objecting to terrorist demands is not the same as terrorism. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
 

ballin4life

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Ballin, the point is that this was a necessary step for the country and the parties should not have used it as leverage for what they want. If the Democrats tried to attach tax increases to the same amount that the Republicans wanted to cut, then you would have a point, but they didn't. The fact of the matter is that the Republications used this situation for their own purposes. Objecting to terrorist demands is not the same as terrorism. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
Uh what? The Democrats did try to attach tax increases, and they SAID they would vote down the bill they disagreed with, even if it meant not raising the debt ceiling. Just like the Republicans.

My point is simply that the rhetoric employed to disparage the Republicans applies equally to the Democrats in this case. Yet one group gets labeled as "terrorists" merely for standing up for what they believe in (what they were voted in to do), while the other gets a free pass despite making similar demands. What makes the demand for spending cuts any different from the demand for tax increases, besides your personal opinion?

(of course, tax increases are much more like terrorism since they involve violently forcing people to give up property, but whatever).
 

Battlecow

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Gotta agree with ballin' on this one. The Republicans couldn't help but play chicken, any more than the dems could help play chicken when the republicans proposed cuts-only measures. Both sides saw their preferred bill as a reasonable compromise. Yes, it's foolish to say that you'll never, ever raise taxes, but it's what they believe in- fault them for their beliefs, not for some "failure to compromise."
 

rvkevin

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My point is simply that the rhetoric employed to disparage the Republicans applies equally to the Democrats in this case. Yet one group gets labeled as "terrorists" merely for standing up for what they believe in (what they were voted in to do), while the other gets a free pass despite making similar demands.
When "what you believe in" goes contrary to the majority of the constituency, you are not going to be treated favorably. I suppose this boils down to what you think the roles of politicians should be. Should they represent the constituents? If so, then attaching a tax hike on the debt ceiling should have been done. Or should they make decisions independent of the constituents' attitudes, but based on the available evidence? So, what is the evidence that "trickle down" economics is effective? Either way, the Republicans are not on good footing. (On second thought, it seems like proposing a plan in tandem with the debt ceiling was needed so my idea of increasing the ceiling in a vacuum was incorrect)
 

Battlecow

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The tea party candidates were elected by constituents who were very much opposed to tax hikes of any kind. They represented their districts and the people who voted them into office quite well.

The DH is so dead lol. Not even I can fix it.
 

ballin4life

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When "what you believe in" goes contrary to the majority of the constituency, you are not going to be treated favorably.
Definitely didn't go contrary to the majority of their constituency. It's also kinda difficult to make that argument given that many of these congressmen literally just got voted in over Democrat incumbents.

Also it's probably likely that few wanted tax increases too. I mean, everyone wants to get benefits and pay no taxes forever, but that won't work forever. IIRC Cut Cap and Balance polled well.

I suppose this boils down to what you think the roles of politicians should be. Should they represent the constituents? If so, then attaching a tax hike on the debt ceiling should have been done. Or should they make decisions independent of the constituents' attitudes, but based on the available evidence? So, what is the evidence that "trickle down" economics is effective? Either way, the Republicans are not on good footing. (On second thought, it seems like proposing a plan in tandem with the debt ceiling was needed so my idea of increasing the ceiling in a vacuum was incorrect)
I'm not very confident in the empirical support behind the supposed alternative to so-called "trickle down economics" (i.e. stimulus). I also think there is good support for the idea that lower taxes = more productivity. But either way you spin it, personally my primary problem with raising taxes is more related to morality and fairness.

Anyway, the only point I was making originally was that the Democrats would have defaulted if their only option was Cut Cap and Balance.
 

Sucumbio

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Eric Cantor:

MEMORANDUM

TO: House Republicans
FR: Eric Cantor
DT: August 8, 2011
RE: S&P Downgrade of U.S.

Like many of you, I spent the weekend attempting to put Standard and Poor’s Friday night downgrade of U.S. government debt into context and understand its point of view. After hearing from many of you and from respected experts outside of government, I wanted to take a brief moment and outline my initial thoughts. I welcome and would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Two Crises:

As we all know, America is facing two related but separate crises. The first is the federal government’s debt crisis that is the result of decades of fiscal mismanagement by both political parties. The second is the economic and jobs crisis, which has resulted in record unemployment and made it harder for businesses to grow and create jobs. I believe that America’s jobs crisis has been compounded by the Obama Administration’s anti-business, hyper-regulatory, pro-tax increase agenda –which has led to dangerous uncertainty in our economy. While much of our time this Congress has been focused on the former, it is the latter that is most directly and dramatically impacting the lives of individuals, families, and small businesses throughout this country.

Anyone who has looked at the numbers cannot seriously discount S&P’s concerns over our government’s rising public debt burden. I do, however, believe its analysis is overly focused on resolving the debt crisis in a manner that would greatly worsen the jobs crisis, which would be a catastrophic mistake. This is not surprising, as S&P’s job is to opine on the federal government’s balance sheet. Indeed, S&P makes clear in its Friday report that it takes, “no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.’s finances on a sustainable footing.”

As legislators focused not just on our debt crisis, but also on getting the 14 million currently unemployed Americans back to work, we cannot afford to be so ambivalent when it comes to revenues. As I learned during the two months of debt limit negotiations, ‘revenues’ is just a code word for the President’s desire to tax individuals, families, and small business people earning over $200-250,000 per year.

S&P seems particularly focused on what it sees as the inability of the political parties to bridge our differences on the best way to eliminate the deficit. By this it means – in part – our unwillingness to raise taxes. The bottom of page four of the S&P analysis describes that a base case scenario, which results in the AA+ rating with a negative outlook, “now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the [Budget Control Act].”

Now to be fair, S&P is also clearly concerned about what it perceives as an unwillingness to tackle our insolvent entitlement programs, which are the biggest drivers of our debt, “the containment of which [S&P] and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability.”

So Where Does This Leave Us?

In all of the discussions Speaker Boehner and I have had with the President this year, the President has repeatedly made clear that even if we agree to all of his requested tax increases, he would never support the type of structural changes to Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security necessary to make these programs solvent as envisioned in our budget resolution.

More disturbingly, the President and Congressional Democrats have also argued that they will only consider modest changes to our current entitlement programs if we agree to tax increases.

For those 14 million Americans currently looking for work, this is a trade we simply cannot afford to make. Raising taxes in this economy will only make it harder for working families and the very small businesses we are counting on to create jobs and get our economy going.

But don’t take my word for it; here is what two Harvard economists concluded in a 2009 study about the various approaches to closing budget deficits, “For fiscal adjustments we show that spending cuts are much more effective than tax increases in stabilizing the debt and avoiding economic downturns. In fact, we uncover several episodes in which spending cuts adopted to reduce deficits have been associated with economic expansions rather than recessions.” (Alesina, A. and Ardagna, S., “Large Changes in Fiscal Policy: Taxes Versus Spending,” National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 15438, Oct. 2009, p. 3, available at http://www.nber.org/papers/w15438.)

The Path Forward:

Over the next several months, there will be tremendous pressure on Congress to prove that S&P’s analysis of the inability of the political parties to bridge our differences is wrong. In short, there will be pressure to compromise on tax increases. We will be told that there is no other way forward. I respectfully disagree.

As we have said from the beginning of the year, the new Republican Majority was elected to change the way Washington does business. We were not elected to raise taxes or take more money out of the pockets of hard working families and business people. People understand Washington can’t keep spending money that it doesn’t have. They want to see less government – not more taxes. This means that spending must be reduced from its current level of 24% of GDP. This is why we were elected, and we are doing the things that we promised we would do. Since we only control one-half of one-third of Washington, these changes are happening incrementally – but make no mistake, they are happening. And that is a sign of progress.

With the Budget Control Act, we made a $917 billion down payment on deficit reduction without raising taxes. The Joint Committee created by the legislation presents another opportunity for an additional $1.2 to $1.5 trillion in savings by the end of the calendar year. Based on the savings identified in our Budget Resolution and in the Biden Group, I firmly believe we can find bipartisan agreement on savings from mandatory programs that can be agreed to without tax increases. I believe this is what we must demand from the Joint Committee as it begins its work.

Now these efforts alone will not solve our debt crisis. That will require fundamental structural reform to our entitlement programs in order to preserve the safety net for the next generation without bankrupting our nation.
Just a few weeks ago, the President himself acknowledged the resistance of his own party to such reforms, as well as the reality that without reform, entitlement programs are unsustainable. On July 11, President Obama said, “…the vast majority of Democrats on Capitol Hill would prefer not to have to do anything on entitlements; would prefer, frankly, not to have to do anything on some of these debt and deficit problems. And I’m sympathetic to their concerns, because they’re looking after folks who are already hurting and already vulnerable, and there are a lot of families out there and seniors who are dependent on some of these programs. And what I’ve tried to explain to them is, number one, if you look at the numbers, then Medicare in particular will run out of money and we will not be able to sustain that program no matter how much taxes go up. I mean, it’s not an option for us to just sit by and do nothing.”
But doing nothing is exactly what the President did in his budget. The President remains opposed to any structural reforms, and would only nibble around the edges of these programs IF taxes are increased on job creators. Given that reality, I firmly believe that these are issues that will be central to the decision that voters will make in the 2012 election.

On Fox News this past Sunday, our colleague Paul Ryan perhaps summed it up best. When discussing the Joint Committee and the goals being set for it, he said, “I think people are overemphasizing what the Committee is going to achieve. I don’t think the Committee will have a full fix to the problems. Democrats do not want to address the health care bill or put out a plan. The President hasn’t put out a specific plan to fix the problem and they don’t want to go with structural entitlement reform which is what you have to do to get the economy growing… I want to make sure people understand that I don’t think [the committee] is going to fix all of our fiscal problems. I hope it is a Committee that will get a down payment on the problems. Ultimately, I think the leadership in Washington needs to be changed.”

This is our challenge for the next 15 months.

In the meantime, our primary focus must be to get the economy going and get people back to work, which is why I have been working with many of our Committee Chairmen to prepare a fall legislative agenda focused on economic growth through reducing the regulatory and tax burden on job creators. While I will be providing you with a more detailed list of legislative proposals before we return in September, it is my intention that the House will take continual and steady action on bills to reduce or eliminate regulatory barriers to job creation this fall.

The new Republican Majority is finally holding Washington accountable, and has begun to business as usual. Our country currently faces two very serious crises – debt and jobs. These two crises are not mutually exclusive, but they are equally dangerous. That is why it is absolutely critical that as policies are developed to overcome each, we consider their impact upon each other. Anything less would be negligent.

Thank you,
Eric


Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/08/0...k-still-no-compromise-on-taxes/#ixzz1UYHICulO


He's quite slick, but if you read closely he's basically saying that the best way to help America is to not raise taxes, but instead dissolve entitlements. This will somehow lead to better job creation, and a reduction in the national deficit, while helping the Markets remain solvent.

In other words my parents who rely solely on their savings and what little fixed income they get from Social Security, and who are on Medicare, are **** outta luck if they have their way. My folks... and millions more where they came from, all screwed. Not to mention whatever happens to the X dollars me and my wife have paid into SS all these years working. Meh.
 

Amide

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@Sucumbio

It's particularly disturbing because Social Security pays for itself, and the only reason it's being considered for cuts is because the government took money out of the program for other uses. The program really isn't spending money we don't have.
 

Battlecow

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What exactly do you mean by "pays for itself"?

If you mean all the tax money that you and I put into it pays for it... maybe. But keep in mind that the boomers are reaching social security age.

Can we at the very least agree that means-testing that sum***** would be a good idea?
 

rvkevin

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Sucumbrio said:
Not to mention whatever happens to the X dollars me and my wife have paid into SS all these years working.
At least it is nothing like "forcing people to give up property." Oh, wait...
 

ballin4life

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He's quite slick, but if you read closely he's basically saying that the best way to help America is to not raise taxes, but instead dissolve entitlements. This will somehow lead to better job creation, and a reduction in the national deficit, while helping the Markets remain solvent.
true dat. Entitlements are a very large part of the federal budget.

In other words my parents who rely solely on their savings and what little fixed income they get from Social Security, and who are on Medicare, are **** outta luck if they have their way. My folks... and millions more where they came from, all screwed. Not to mention whatever happens to the X dollars me and my wife have paid into SS all these years working. Meh.
Blame the people who passed those programs. Also it will be much better to let people know that those programs are going to be cut off than to pull a "stealth default" by inflating away the debt (meaning your fixed income won't buy you anything).

Also, any opinion on Obama's insinuation that he wouldn't send out social security checks if the debt ceiling wasn't raised (despite there being enough money for that at least)?

@Sucumbio

It's particularly disturbing because Social Security pays for itself, and the only reason it's being considered for cuts is because the government took money out of the program for other uses. The program really isn't spending money we don't have.
well, that and the fact that it won't pay for itself at all going forward.

and the fact that social security is a huge tax (12%! when you factor employer and employee contributions) on people, especially poor people.

At least it is nothing like "forcing people to give up property." Oh, wait...
yup, the exact opposite.


Anyway, yeah in the short run it should be means tested at least. Not only does that save money, but it will also get the idea out of people's heads that Social Security is anything besides welfare.
 

Sucumbio

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I dunno, welfare comes from tax money that we all pay (property tax, capital gains, sales, etc.) and that is given to "qualified" people. Social Security is tax money that is taken only from employed people and is given back to you when you reach a certain age requirement. I don't really want to get into the debate on whether or not people in certain situations are deserving of welfare, or whatever, but since workers have -no choice- but to pay into social security (which is in essence a mandatory retirement plan) it's only fair that when we reach retirement age we should expect to get what we've paid for. I surmise if SS is done away with, if I DON'T get a full refund of all the monies taken out of every check I've ever earned, then I'll not only feel cheated, but I should think there'd be some grounds for a class action.

@TLink_King: well historically speaking, SS funds were there for the government to borrow against. It was also never meant to be your sole income after retirement, but as a supplemental income to add to your pension. It wasn't until later that younger generations' SS contributions were needed to pay retirees SS checks. And now, well as has been pointed out, the government's basically sandbagged their own population by making it impossible for the SS system to continue functioning.

I know this much: I'm not going to bank on there being a SS check for me in retirement, but as such I just wish I could stop having to pay into it now, lol.
 

ballin4life

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I dunno, welfare comes from tax money that we all pay (property tax, capital gains, sales, etc.) and that is given to "qualified" people. Social Security is tax money that is taken only from employed people and is given back to you when you reach a certain age requirement. I don't really want to get into the debate on whether or not people in certain situations are deserving of welfare, or whatever, but since workers have -no choice- but to pay into social security (which is in essence a mandatory retirement plan) it's only fair that when we reach retirement age we should expect to get what we've paid for. I surmise if SS is done away with, if I DON'T get a full refund of all the monies taken out of every check I've ever earned, then I'll not only feel cheated, but I should think there'd be some grounds for a class action.
Well, people have no choice but to pay taxes too...

I agree that you should feel cheated by Social Security, but the program simply isn't sustainable going forward. The problem is that the first people to receive Social Security didn't pay into the system (they just got the payments from the workers of the time). That's why people compare Social Security to a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme.

@TLink_King: well historically speaking, SS funds were there for the government to borrow against. It was also never meant to be your sole income after retirement, but as a supplemental income to add to your pension. It wasn't until later that younger generations' SS contributions were needed to pay retirees SS checks. And now, well as has been pointed out, the government's basically sandbagged their own population by making it impossible for the SS system to continue functioning.
Seems kinda pointless if it isn't meant to cover your whole retirement. Why not just let you keep more of your money throughout your life?

I know this much: I'm not going to bank on there being a SS check for me in retirement, but as such I just wish I could stop having to pay into it now, lol.
Agreed.
 

Ocean

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Well, people have no choice but to pay taxes too...
people living in condos have no choice but to pay their rent.

you are able to choose to live in this country, and one of the requirements for living in it is paying taxes, the same as the requirement of living in a condo is paying rent. I'd love to live in a society where I did not have to pay any taxes, just like I'd love to live in a condo without paying rent, but my desire to live in a society that has public roads and education outweighs that. don't agree? fine, but that doesn't mean you have no choice on whether or not you pay taxes, because you do, but you are choosing to stay in a place where you have to pay taxes because you see that its benefits outweighs its costs. if taxes really bother you that much, you are able to move to a country that better suits your taste for the amount of taxes you want to pay, or move to a place where you don't have to pay taxes at all.

stop acting like taxes are some terrible method of the government stealing your money, because that's not what it is; it is people paying for things, where that thing is the ability to live in a country and have access to its benefits.
 

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^ I don't think he's saying all taxes are bad. Aren't we talking about social security??

Seems kinda pointless if it isn't meant to cover your whole retirement. Why not just let you keep more of your money throughout your life?
That's actually a good question. The Social Security Act as it originally was intended "was an attempt to limit what were seen as dangers in the modern American life, including old age, poverty, unemployment, and the burdens of widows and fatherless children." It was all part of the New Deal, which altered a lot of the way Americans planned for the future, but in essence it was a sure fire way to ensure you'd have something for retirement. I agree some people could probably keep the money and be responsible with it, putting into their own savings plans. In fact, I'd rather put that money into a roth IRA or 401k, as it'd make money in the process (interest), and the argument (it's not as secure) is crap because as we can see, neither is SS! ><
 

ballin4life

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people living in condos have no choice but to pay their rent.

you are able to choose to live in this country, and one of the requirements for living in it is paying taxes, the same as the requirement of living in a condo is paying rent.
Actually, if you leave the US you are still legally required to pay taxes.

I'd love to live in a society where I did not have to pay any taxes, just like I'd love to live in a condo without paying rent, but my desire to live in a society that has public roads and education outweighs that. don't agree? fine, but that doesn't mean you have no choice on whether or not you pay taxes, because you do, but you are choosing to stay in a place where you have to pay taxes because you see that its benefits outweighs its costs.
if taxes really bother you that much, you are able to move to a country that better suits your taste for the amount of taxes you want to pay, or move to a place where you don't have to pay taxes at all.

stop acting like taxes are some terrible method of the government stealing your money, because that's not what it is; it is people paying for things, where that thing is the ability to live in a country and have access to its benefits.
One obvious difference with the condo is that you presumably made an actual agreement with your landlord prior to taking residence and paying rent. This agreement would dictate the terms of future interactions. I don't see an analogous agreement in the case of the government. When no initial agreement has been made there is no reason to assume tacit consent.

So given that you never agreed to be taxed, your argument essentially is that the government owns us and that might makes right. I don't accept these claims.

What if I say that you owe me taxes right now? Presumably you aren't going to pay up. Ok, now what if I come to you and threaten violence unless you pay. I claim that your property in truth belongs to me, so I am justified in using violence to collect this property. Presumably you aren't going to be too happy about this. So when does this system become acceptable? When it's happening to someone else? When you have enough people on your side?

Maybe you could make an argument that this violence is ok because we will all be better off with taxes if those taxes go towards public roads. Maybe. However, I think there is NO way that could be true about our current system.

I feel like if we accept your claims, then we lose ALL right to complain about anything that the government does. Anything the government does is justified. Hopefully I don't need to go into additional detail about the implications of that statement.

So, unless you accept the above claim, I think you need to give additional detail on the difference.

^ I don't think he's saying all taxes are bad. Aren't we talking about social security??
All taxes are bad, but some are better than others.
 

adumbrodeus

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Actually, if you leave the US you are still legally required to pay taxes.



One obvious difference with the condo is that you presumably made an actual agreement with your landlord prior to taking residence and paying rent. This agreement would dictate the terms of future interactions. I don't see an analogous agreement in the case of the government. When no initial agreement has been made there is no reason to assume tacit consent.

So given that you never agreed to be taxed, your argument essentially is that the government owns us and that might makes right. I don't accept these claims.

What if I say that you owe me taxes right now? Presumably you aren't going to pay up. Ok, now what if I come to you and threaten violence unless you pay. I claim that your property in truth belongs to me, so I am justified in using violence to collect this property. Presumably you aren't going to be too happy about this. So when does this system become acceptable? When it's happening to someone else? When you have enough people on your side?

Maybe you could make an argument that this violence is ok because we will all be better off with taxes if those taxes go towards public roads. Maybe. However, I think there is NO way that could be true about our current system.

I feel like if we accept your claims, then we lose ALL right to complain about anything that the government does. Anything the government does is justified. Hopefully I don't need to go into additional detail about the implications of that statement.

So, unless you accept the above claim, I think you need to give additional detail on the difference.



All taxes are bad, but some are better than others.
Actually, what you're arguing is at the core of social contract theory, hence the initial requirement for our constitution to be voted in by a substantial majority, the ability to amend it via (ultimately) popular vote, and the ability to renounce citizenship hence no longer being bound by the agreement.

However the act of retaining one's citizenship is a tacit agreement to the contract.
 

Sucumbio

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not to mention there -is- an agreement reached consensually which demands your taxes. 2 actually... 1 is filling out a W2, which is the only way to get legally paid in most jobs. This sets you up to be taxed, so you can technically avoid being taxed by not filling one out, which in turn means, well... not working. The other is accepting and using legal forms of tender. By doing so you agree to pay sales tax, property tax, capital gains tax, etc. Again you can avoid owing these taxes by using barters in exchange for services and goods, but even then back in the day the local tax collector would just take his handful of grain or whatever... payment for living within his borders, and that is of course feudalism, not a republic which we live in. But yeah, the one thing I think we can all agree on that we enter into contractually without informed consent, is receiving a tax ID, ergo social security number (the number of the beast? nah). It is assigned to us at birth, and is required to perpetuate one's own existence in the US from pretty much the get go.
 

ballin4life

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Actually, what you're arguing is at the core of social contract theory, hence the initial requirement for our constitution to be voted in by a substantial majority, the ability to amend it via (ultimately) popular vote, and the ability to renounce citizenship hence no longer being bound by the agreement.

However the act of retaining one's citizenship is a tacit agreement to the contract.
So majority = right? Still some VERY unfortunate implications to that one.

Also I still don't see the tacit agreement.

not to mention there -is- an agreement reached consensually which demands your taxes. 2 actually... 1 is filling out a W2, which is the only way to get legally paid in most jobs. This sets you up to be taxed, so you can technically avoid being taxed by not filling one out, which in turn means, well... not working. The other is accepting and using legal forms of tender. By doing so you agree to pay sales tax, property tax, capital gains tax, etc. Again you can avoid owing these taxes by using barters in exchange for services and goods, but even then back in the day the local tax collector would just take his handful of grain or whatever... payment for living within his borders, and that is of course feudalism, not a republic which we live in. But yeah, the one thing I think we can all agree on that we enter into contractually without informed consent, is receiving a tax ID, ergo social security number (the number of the beast? nah). It is assigned to us at birth, and is required to perpetuate one's own existence in the US from pretty much the get go.
I don't think any of those constitute an agreement ... it's more like if you DON'T do them you get thrown in jail.
 

adumbrodeus

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So majority = right? Still some VERY unfortunate implications to that one.

Also I still don't see the tacit agreement.
Not really, more like super-majority, frankly totality is unworkable for a political system (for obvious reasons) and one has the ability to remove oneself totally from the contract via renouncing citizenship and leaving the country it's a rather elegant solution.

The contents of the agreement are the constitution (as well as the state constitution of your area, down to local laws, etc) which is the contract that was initially voted in, which we have the power to amend, and which you have the power to remove yourself from.


Tyrrany of the majority, is unfortunately always going to be an issue, but our contract incorporates protections which at least limit it.
 

ballin4life

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Not really, more like super-majority, frankly totality is unworkable for a political system (for obvious reasons) and one has the ability to remove oneself totally from the contract via renouncing citizenship and leaving the country it's a rather elegant solution.

The contents of the agreement are the constitution (as well as the state constitution of your area, down to local laws, etc) which is the contract that was initially voted in, which we have the power to amend, and which you have the power to remove yourself from.


Tyrrany of the majority, is unfortunately always going to be an issue, but our contract incorporates protections which at least limit it.
Ok, except that the Constitution isn't really followed.

Also, I still don't get the "super-majority" thing. I mean, is there some threshold? 95% makes it right? I just don't see it. You're always going to run into the problem of minority oppression. But if you start bringing natural rights into it, then I think you wind up with my stance.

And again I don't see the logic behind "tacit agreement". If you act against this supposed "agreement" then they will use violence against you. Using that logic, can't you say the victim of any crime tacitly agreed to it?

I don't know, it seems like this is confusing normative and positive descriptions. Yes, GIVEN that a certain status quo exists, I'm going to choose whatever is best. But when we are talking about which status quo is best, then there's no reason to think one side of this "tacit agreement" automatically holds.
 

adumbrodeus

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Ok, except that the Constitution isn't really followed.

Also, I still don't get the "super-majority" thing. I mean, is there some threshold? 95% makes it right? I just don't see it. You're always going to run into the problem of minority oppression. But if you start bringing natural rights into it, then I think you wind up with my stance.

And again I don't see the logic behind "tacit agreement". If you act against this supposed "agreement" then they will use violence against you. Using that logic, can't you say the victim of any crime tacitly agreed to it?
Then do what an upstanding citizen should do, bring attention to the abuses and help remove said politicians.


As said before, but that doesn't invalidate the agreement per say. Technically a country could craft a constitution based on the oppression of every minority group they wanted. Natural rights mitigates this to a degree with constitutions that endorse it because it begins idea that people begin with every right, and they give up a strictly limited number to form a government. The idea is to make said government as limited in the rights it removes as possible while still able to protect the remaining ones.



That is quite frankly, the dumbest train of logic I have ever read. Social contracts get their power because of the consent of the governed. For the group this consent is contingent on an initial agreement and it not being amended. For the individual this power is dependent on the individual not renouncing the agreement (of course, the ability to renounce the agreement is required for it to be valid). At that point, violence is only a mechanism for enforcement, and unless you are a complete anarchist, there is no issue with enforcement of an agreement.

A monopoly on legitimate violence is not what MAKES the agreement valid, it is merely enforcement.

You agree to the agreement personally by not renouncing citizenship.


Yes it has flaws, but that doesn't make the agreement invalid, and your personal agreement any less valid.



I don't know, it seems like this is confusing normative and positive descriptions. Yes, GIVEN that a certain status quo exists, I'm going to choose whatever is best. But when we are talking about which status quo is best, then there's no reason to think one side of this "tacit agreement" automatically holds.
Why not? Agreements made by groups are binding on said groups as long as they exist and the agreement isn't renegotiated. Why is this any different?
 

ballin4life

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Then do what an upstanding citizen should do, bring attention to the abuses and help remove said politicians.
The mathematics really don't support this option. The chance of your vote mattering is billions to one.

As said before, but that doesn't invalidate the agreement per say. Technically a country could craft a constitution based on the oppression of every minority group they wanted. Natural rights mitigates this to a degree with constitutions that endorse it because it begins idea that people begin with every right, and they give up a strictly limited number to form a government. The idea is to make said government as limited in the rights it removes as possible while still able to protect the remaining ones.
I think that's perfectly fine if EVERYONE agrees. But if not, then you are TAKING some rights away from the people that didn't agree.

That is quite frankly, the dumbest train of logic I have ever read. Social contracts get their power because of the consent of the governed. For the group this consent is contingent on an initial agreement and it not being amended. For the individual this power is dependent on the individual not renouncing the agreement (of course, the ability to renounce the agreement is required for it to be valid). At that point, violence is only a mechanism for enforcement, and unless you are a complete anarchist, there is no issue with enforcement of an agreement.
Wow, someone's getting hostile :rolleyes:

The idea of social "contract" is one of the biggest twists of phrase I've ever heard. The word "contract" has a pretty specific meaning that implies agreement. Let me know where this contract is and when I agreed it. "Consent of the governed" is also an incredibly vague and useless phrase. According to your arguments, the regimes of Hitler/Stalin/etc are all totally fine since they must have had consent of the governed (especially true for Hitler if you are advocating democracy in particular). I don't think it's "the dumbest train of logic" to have some problems with a ridiculously vague idea that can be used to justify anything.

A monopoly on legitimate violence is not what MAKES the agreement valid, it is merely enforcement.
Uh, what makes the agreement valid? What begins this alleged agreement in the first place?

You agree to the agreement personally by not renouncing citizenship.
This is not an agreement. Let's say I come to your house and steal your Xbox and then run back to the other side of the country. Are you going to go track me down personally? Probably not. Does that mean that you agreed to have your Xbox be stolen?

Yes it has flaws, but that doesn't make the agreement invalid, and your personal agreement any less valid.
What makes the agreement invalid is that one of the parties NEVER AGREED TO IT.

Why not? Agreements made by groups are binding on said groups as long as they exist and the agreement isn't renegotiated. Why is this any different?
Because a "group" is merely a collection of individuals. You can only say that a group agrees with something if the individuals agree to it.

Just to explain a bit further/preempt an obvious response - you might agree to join a group that has some internal mechanism for determining what the group agrees with. For example, I might join a group of my friends, and then have a majority vote on whether to go to the movies or watch baseball. Now, even if I would prefer baseball, if the group votes for movies, I will still go along. This is still a valid agreement because I agreed initially to join the group in the first place and follow the group choice procedure. That's the key step that is missing.
 
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