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The Debate Hall Social Thread

AltF4

AltF4

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How did it come to be that we have two debate halls? One where there is no discussion at all, and one where I am not allowed to post?
 
R

RDK

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AltF4 said:
How did it come to be that we have two debate halls? One where there is no discussion at all, and one where I am not allowed to post?
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I'm not quite sure. It seems like the administration hasn't been all that active lately so the PG has kind of descended into relative inactivity, while the actual DH is 100% inactive.

It isn't anything personal, but I think we need to change up the leadership around here. It's just not active enough to keep up interest in the Debate Hall.
 
thegreatkazoo

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AltF4 said:
How did it come to be that we have two debate halls? One where there is no discussion at all, and one where I am not allowed to post?
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This is a little bit of a head scratcher to me. I thought that once you were let in the DH, you could have access to both the PG & DH. Or maybe it's just me. :/
 
blazedaces

blazedaces

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thegreatkazoo said:
This is a little bit of a head scratcher to me. I thought that once you were let in the DH, you could have access to both the PG & DH. Or maybe it's just me. :/
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Nope, I know i am unable to post in the PG. I once tried to post in the thread where DH members were supposed to comment and give tips to PG members... but was unable to do so.

And I agree that the lack of activity here is frustrating. I check here often enough, yet I feel there's nothing to post about. What about that whole "current event thread" thing we were talking about at one point in the activities suggestions thread?

-blaze
 
Aesir

Aesir

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I had an idea it's a bit out there, I'm not sure if it's even that good of an idea because I came up with it at 4 oclock in the morning.

Basically a few people like maybe four or five. Would create a thread where they would defend a position of their choosing and the entire DH basically goes after their argument and try to refute it as much as possible. At the end of a certain time period. Judges then decide if said person defended their position well enough ect..
 
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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RDK said:
It isn't anything personal, but I think we need to change up the leadership around here. It's just not active enough to keep up interest in the Debate Hall.
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I didn't want to be the one to bring this up since I'm not one of the more well known Debaters, but I agree. If this place has 4 mods then why is it so inactive?

At a certain point (basically where we're at now) I feel like the blame really can't be put on the Debaters themselves anymore.
 
CRASHiC

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Would you guys be interested in a weekly debate thread that uses political cartoons, and we argue about the point being made?
 
KrazyGlue

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thegreatkazoo said:
This is a little bit of a head scratcher to me. I thought that once you were let in the DH, you could have access to both the PG & DH. Or maybe it's just me. :/
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You have to be in the temp debater group to post in the PG. Just reapply if you want to post there.


_________________________


As for the current events thread, I proposed a ruleset to the mods about a week ago. So far I've received no response. If you all would like, I could post the suggested rules that I sent to them.
 
thegreatkazoo

thegreatkazoo

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KrazyGlue said:
You have to be in the temp debater group to post in the PG. Just reapply if you want to post there.
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No worries for me, as I have PG access.

I remember that once you get in the DH, you are supposed to ask to be removed from the PG. Iirc it's a sticky on the DH. Perhaps they don't enforce it as much.
 
Mewter

Mewter

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Do you have to know somebody to have an avatar for them?
I think he read that thread, too.

Wait, was there ever a time in the DH when debating took place every day for extended periods of time?
 
CRASHiC

CRASHiC

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http://matadorchange.com/three-cheers-for-sweatshops/
The lone voice of a wildly unpopular view, journalist Nicholas Kristof makes his case for supporting sweatshops.

In his New York Times Op-Ed column championing sweatshops in third world countries, Kristof admits he is “just about the only person in America who favors sweatshops.”

Despite suffering the common criticisms of unhealthy conditions, abuses, low wages, etc., sweatshops, Kristof maintains, “are only a symptom of poverty, not a cause, and banning them closes off one route out of poverty.”

For many citizens in poverty stricken nations, a factory job is a “cherished dream, an escalator out of poverty,” says Kristof. To take that away is more harmful than helpful. To be a garment worker is far from the worst thing out there.

In order for poor countries to pull themselves out of poverty, they must develop their manufacturing businesses. And if this means constructing sweatshops in third world countries, well, as “bad as sweatshops are, the alternatives are worse.”

Kristof makes strong points about looking at sweatshops through the lens of impoverished third world residents and being realistic about what factory jobs, no matter how low the wages in comparison to US standards, can provide.

Though, as Matador member Kelsey Timmerman points out in his comment on the post, “[Kristof's] argument ’sweatshops are good’ is too simple, just as is the one ’sweatshops are bad.’ ”

While Timmerman agrees that such factory jobs are incredibly important to the workers, he worries that Kristof’s column “encourages apathy” among consumers through it’s bottom line.

Rather than taking a black or white, good or bad side on the sweatshop debate, Timmerman feels that what people should be doing is becoming engaged consumers, asking brands where they manufacture their products and whether or not they have codes of social conduct for their factories.

“In my eyes, if an engaged consumer discovers something they don’t like about a brand they are wearing, they shouldn’t just write off the brand, they should pick up the phone and give them a call or drop them an e-mail. They should express what their concern is and see what, if any, action or response the brand is taking to correct it.”

It’s hard to say whether or not such phone calls or emails would have significant impacts on the way companies do business, but what is for sure, what both Kristof and Timmerman can agree upon, is that a general boycott of companies whose products are made in sweatshops is not the answer as it damages the lives of very workers its trying to help by putting them out of work.
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I'm not really sure what to think. At what level does ethics end and pure business begin.
 
GoldShadow

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That's an interesting piece Crashic. Actually, I'm taking a human rights course right now and we did cover something like that. Basically, I agree with the article's general message, with a few caveats.

I'll have to go into detail later though, as I don't have time right now. Or perhaps we could make a thread about it.
 
Aesir

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The problem I have with the sweat shops argument and this might be weird coming from a Progressive, but what exactly is exploitation? We all have a vague idea of it. What about these countries that "exploit" these works who just want to work, even if it's in sweat shop conditions. I find my self very conflicted about the whole thing, people should be given living wages, but in impoverish countries that simply isn't an option and sweat shops are more favorable than unemployment.

The way I see America is a prime example of this, factories exploited the workers, as our economic growth progressed workers unionized, lobbied and fought for higher wages and safer working conditions and benefits.

I guess what I'm saying is in this case; The ends justify the means.
 
R

RDK

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Aesir said:
I guess what I'm saying is in this case; The ends justify the means.
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Is this a universal statement or a specific statement?

Also I'm highly surprised that both GS and Aesir approve of this. Can't wait for Alt to come in here waving a pro-sweatshop banner.

I'm not really sure my opinion on it so I'll wait until some more people express theirs.
 
CRASHiC

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I'm in the same boat as RDK, waiting to hear more about it, because of conflicting ideas here, two things that agree with, and two things that I don't agree with existing. I live in a rather rich neighborhood despite my family hitting bankruptcy recently thanks to the kindness of my father's friend renting us the house for cheap. There was an issue that poped up about substandard housing and rezoning a street to allow it to be rebuilt for substandard housing for the poor. My street didn't like it and claimed that it was immoral, but if you don't provided such housing, will our towns homeless rate rise? I found the same conflict here within myself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/03/palin-goes-birther-obama_n_379634.html
This thing couldn't be anymore ridiculious. They have released the scans of the birth certificate, what more do they want? They have birth reports in the local papers. Democrats need to jump on this and beat the Neo-cons into the ground for it, make the Birther Movement look as stupid as it really is.
 
Aesir

Aesir

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RDK said:
Is this a universal statement or a specific statement?

Also I'm highly surprised that both GS and Aesir approve of this. Can't wait for Alt to come in here waving a pro-sweatshop banner.

I'm not really sure my opinion on it so I'll wait until some more people express theirs.
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Just in this case, I sometimes think the term "the ends justifies the means" can be a very acceptable term. In this case it's acceptable for torturing enemy combatants it's not. (for the obvious practical and moral arguments.)

I think I need to clarify I still think sweatshops are horrible and exploit workers, but I also understand that for strong economies to develop you have to sleep with the devil so to speak. It's just the natural evolution of Capitalism. Despite all my progressive ideals and advocating for the mix market I still believe in the fundamentals of Capitalism.

In all honesty the whole argument about this reminds me of a debate; Which is more beneficial controlling inflation and controlling unemployment.
 
KrazyGlue

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Debate Hall Current Events Thread Proposed Rules

About the Current Events Thread​

The Debate Hall Current Events thread will provide a new current event to debate on every week. Debaters can submit their ideas for the next current event debate to me, and I will pick one of the topics to debate. Most of the common-sense rules from the social thread still apply here. In other words, the global rules still apply, post intelligently, and don't spam. Note that it is helpful if, when submitting an idea, you give me some information to post with the topic, or else I will have to find it myself.



Current Events Thread Rules and Guidelines​

* Please do not complain if your current events topic is not picked.

* A current event must be an unresolved issue and must be debatable.

* I will extend the debate on a current event if it is fostering a successful debate and there is nothing of interesting for next week.

* If no current events ideas are submitted, the current debate can be extended, or a topic of my choice will be next.

* If you are having a good debate on a current event but the duration ends and is not extended, do not continue debating on the topic in the Current Events thread. Simply make a new thread if this is the case.



________________________________________
________________________________________


Let me know what you all think (feel free to give me edits/suggestions). Unless there is strong opposition, I will open this on Sunday. I have a couple of topics in mind but I'm still open to suggestions.

Hopefully this can help spark new activity every week in the debate hall.
 
R

RDK

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Aesir said:
Lol Rdk.

Some more stuff on "Climategate"

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/05/enviro-watergate/

I still can't get over Conservatives and their love for the Rule of Law, yet they have no problem with illegal hacking attempts lol.

When these emails show no collusion I'm going to lul.
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They don't show collusion; the maybe two or three instances everyone is getting crazy over are easily explained in the articles I posted in the Climategate thread.

And even if they did show collusion, it doesn't discount decades worth of scientific data supporting global warming. The fundies kill me with this "biggest fraud in the history of science" nonsense. Before that it was evolution, and before that it was heliocentrism.
 
adumbrodeus

adumbrodeus

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Why do I feel like a baby-killer for opposing sweatshops?


Eh, ok, while I see a reason when we're talking about internal to emerging nations, when the sweatshops are used for export, no, not at all, a number of bad effects follow.


Basically, when living conditions rise enough to force a substantial increase in wages, rather then improving conditions (like what occured in the US), they move to a less expensive area.

This causes the area that was economically dependant on the plant, to collapse, and because local businesses grow dependant, they collapse too.


Basically, end result is area worse off and you get a cycle of poverty. You need local businesses to get them out of it.
 
aeghrur

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adumbrodeus said:
Why do I feel like a baby-killer for opposing sweatshops?


Eh, ok, while I see a reason when we're talking about internal to emerging nations, when the sweatshops are used for export, no, not at all, a number of bad effects follow.


Basically, when living conditions rise enough to force a substantial increase in wages, rather then improving conditions (like what occured in the US), they move to a less expensive area.

This causes the area that was economically dependant on the plant, to collapse, and because local businesses grow dependant, they collapse too.
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Idk, I kind of disagree because in this case, the sweatshops are based in China. The thing is, there won't be that HUGE rise in pay because
1. The Yuan is quite cheap internationally (although it's getting stronger) so rise in prices don't matter as much.
2. The supply of labor in China is ENORMOUS. As in, it will take a substantial increase in demand to raise the prices by as much as you say.
3. There are still many impoverished people in China who could do the labor of these sweat shops.
4. They could always use the income to buy more capital, increase productivity, and the wage increase will be canceled out by increased productivity keeping prices for consumers relatively equal.
4a. With increased technology, 4 could have an even greater effect because remember, China is still a developing country. And look at America, it remained one of the top exporters for foreign markets despite the increase in living conditions because of their increase in technology and capital relative to other European Nations after WWII allowing businesses to both increase wage and still keep prices low.

:093:
 
Aesir

Aesir

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RDK said:
They don't show collusion; the maybe two or three instances everyone is getting crazy over are easily explained in the articles I posted in the Climategate thread.

And even if they did show collusion, it doesn't discount decades worth of scientific data supporting global warming. The fundies kill me with this "biggest fraud in the history of science" nonsense. Before that it was evolution, and before that it was heliocentrism.
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Agreed lol.

edit: as much as I hate Eric Alterman this is one of his greatest articles I've read; http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/12/ta120309.html


adumbrodeus: Do you have any real life examples of this?

The biggest problem I have with people on left about this issue is they speak as if there's other alternatives. What choices does a person in some obscure Asian country have? Work in a sweatshop or find more lucrative choices of work? (like child prostitution) I mean I'm all for giving workers living wages, enforcing environmental regulation, and improved working conditions but I also know that companies look for cheap labor and if we held impoverish countries accountable like we hold our selfs accountable they'll never get out of their rut.
 
KrazyGlue

KrazyGlue

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THIS IS PERFECT!


I'm going to make the sweatshop issue the current event! So take your debates over there! :D


EDIT: Hey CHRASHiC, I hope you don't mind if I take your post and make it the topic post in the Current Events thread.
 
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