DunnoBro
The Free-est
Actually
lilinuyasha
is right. I've always done frisbee > bair since I always thought it was stronger due to the precision and animation involved, but nair seems overall better go for.
There's virtually ZERO difference in knockback. Bair might kill fast fallers slightly better but only by 2-3% at most. And in the situation of frisbee > aerial, nair connects just as well despite less range due to no time spent doing a RAR.
It's also better for catching 50/50s when you know you can't true combo and want to punish an air dodge.
At super low percents though, sourspot bair does set-up for sweetspot super close to the blastzone.
Anywho, here's the grab flowchart I'm trying to incorporate now:
0-50: Go for guaranteed fthrow combos.
50-100: Go for dthrow mix-ups. Best to try going for them JUST as fthrow combos are about to stop working instead of when they already have. If they air dodge at these percents you generally still retain enough frame advantage to get something.
Dthrow Mix-ups:
No Airdodge: Spaced Sweetspot fair > Smash Toss Frisbee > Follow-up
*If Sourspot fair at lower percents, weave away from opponent and soft toss.
The difference between the toss types matter a LOT.
After a sweetspot fair, only smash toss goes at the proper straight angle quick enough to pressure a tumbling opponent. They will be inclined to jump inward if it doesn't hit them, letting you upair.
However, after a sourspot, a smashtoss can still connect but if it doesn't it leaves you very open. Soft toss catches nearby-landings better anyway so this is more efficient for catching them and protecting you as it stays nearer.
Both frisbees let you kill combo, but only with an aerial generally. They'll connect too far to let another frisbee connect.
If Airdodge:
By Ledge and proper fall speed: Fsmash.
Frisbee doesn't combo very well off the ledge and this generally kills pretty well.
Inaward stage: Follow DI with a jump as if to aerial, then frisbee in direction of air dodge. Either follow up with a killing aerial or another frisbee into one if you can.
Off-stage: You can dair if you think it'll kill but at the percents it does they'll be high enough for better punishes probably.
150+/130+(rage) When dthrow follow-ups just stop working properly, which unfortunately happens pretty quick, it's back to just camping for the kill and throwing them offstage for edgeguards. Almost ALWAYS reverse shot at these percents after connecting with anything. Throw, dash attack, whatever. His moves naturally send them at proper angles to be pressured by the can.
*Double rage also seems to be the only percents Dthrow > Instant Frisbee actually frame traps decently. Unfortunately, most chars go too high to kill off of a frisbee confirm at these percents but you can catch their jumps if they try to avoid it or chase with can out of frisbee hitstun.
There's virtually ZERO difference in knockback. Bair might kill fast fallers slightly better but only by 2-3% at most. And in the situation of frisbee > aerial, nair connects just as well despite less range due to no time spent doing a RAR.
It's also better for catching 50/50s when you know you can't true combo and want to punish an air dodge.
At super low percents though, sourspot bair does set-up for sweetspot super close to the blastzone.
Anywho, here's the grab flowchart I'm trying to incorporate now:
0-50: Go for guaranteed fthrow combos.
50-100: Go for dthrow mix-ups. Best to try going for them JUST as fthrow combos are about to stop working instead of when they already have. If they air dodge at these percents you generally still retain enough frame advantage to get something.
Dthrow Mix-ups:
No Airdodge: Spaced Sweetspot fair > Smash Toss Frisbee > Follow-up
*If Sourspot fair at lower percents, weave away from opponent and soft toss.
The difference between the toss types matter a LOT.
After a sweetspot fair, only smash toss goes at the proper straight angle quick enough to pressure a tumbling opponent. They will be inclined to jump inward if it doesn't hit them, letting you upair.
However, after a sourspot, a smashtoss can still connect but if it doesn't it leaves you very open. Soft toss catches nearby-landings better anyway so this is more efficient for catching them and protecting you as it stays nearer.
Both frisbees let you kill combo, but only with an aerial generally. They'll connect too far to let another frisbee connect.
If Airdodge:
By Ledge and proper fall speed: Fsmash.
Frisbee doesn't combo very well off the ledge and this generally kills pretty well.
Inaward stage: Follow DI with a jump as if to aerial, then frisbee in direction of air dodge. Either follow up with a killing aerial or another frisbee into one if you can.
Off-stage: You can dair if you think it'll kill but at the percents it does they'll be high enough for better punishes probably.
150+/130+(rage) When dthrow follow-ups just stop working properly, which unfortunately happens pretty quick, it's back to just camping for the kill and throwing them offstage for edgeguards. Almost ALWAYS reverse shot at these percents after connecting with anything. Throw, dash attack, whatever. His moves naturally send them at proper angles to be pressured by the can.
*Double rage also seems to be the only percents Dthrow > Instant Frisbee actually frame traps decently. Unfortunately, most chars go too high to kill off of a frisbee confirm at these percents but you can catch their jumps if they try to avoid it or chase with can out of frisbee hitstun.
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