The EVO-ruleset (continued...)

[BigRick]

Yuna is right that's why he's owning all the counter arguments. How can you determine who is the best when there is an infinite amount of luck involved? Item spawns, which items fall when, maybe even an item benefiting a specific character more: Snake laying mines under cover of a smoke ball (bad example, but you get the point)?

It's sad that you didn't bother to read the thread.

But I understand you, with all these posts I wouldn't bother either.

 

[Yuna]

Well if this is the case more people should go on to the forum and basically demand this. Could an organized group be created so 50-60 people could ask for a simple poll? There is strength in numbers, and this is something that SWF can exploit more so than SRK (I think.)

They don't like SWF. I saw people put us down in a random thread that had nothing to do with SWF:ers. They just don't value our opinions. 50-60 SWF:ers demanding a poll? They'll ignore us all. That's just how they are.

 

[-Aether]

They don't like SWF. I saw people put us down in a random thread that had nothing to do with SWF:ers. They just don't value our opinions. 50-60 SWF:ers demanding a poll? They'll ignore us all. That's just how they are.

If this is true, doesn't that make this thread simple a anger ventilation device? If we can't change it, and no one likes it, why even bother discussing it?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Because no matter what, people will discuss it. SRK seems to think that closing every single thread that has any sort of debate in it is the best way to control the subject. They apparently don't notice that many of their threads are starting to go into the direction of debating this topic. And they've also driven away many, MANY, users that would've stayed on the boards to debate further. They really don't know how to handle the matter.

SWF on the other hand knows that we can't stop people from talking about something (just talking about it like *******). This thread is not only to vent, but to continue the debate, and to do item research. It has its uses... for now.

 

[yostuffstank]

Assuming that most attenders of EVO want items off, players should meet beforehand and discuss use of items. From there they can mutually choose/agree to boycott usage of items (either don't pick them up or throw them out of the level) or to actually use them. This is an unofficial agreement and there is really no punishment for breaking it, but I guess reputation and dignity is on the line, and I am sure competitive players would respect an unwritten contract.

 

[R i p]

I don't know why people are bringing up minor items on very low as some type of argument. When I heard items(on medium no less) would be on I rolled my eyes. When I saw which items were on I slammed my face into my desk.

 

[SynikaL]

SWF on the other hand knows that we can't stop people from talking about something (just talking about it like *******). This thread is not only to vent, but to continue the debate, and to do item research. It has its uses... for now.

The only real consequence of this thread is the perpetuation of the harmful but legitimate stigmas and stereotypes leveled towards this community from the fighting game community at large -- the notion of this community consisting of little more than esoteric, whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

This thread is pathetic.

The "venting" is pointless and futile; the "why" for this has been presented to you repeatedly; but you all decide to b*tch aimlessly, regardless of the fact that EVO is ultimately meaningless to most, if not, all of you and Wizard remains immovable in his decisions.

Furthermore, the logic and subsequent arguments behind the anti-item sentiments here are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's a call for debate, but no such thing is taking place here; just a chorus of children screaming into a vacuum. With the exception of Wobbles, Timmay, Alpha and maybe Polarity -- his perspectival validity derives more from his exposure to the larger fighting game community than any real intelligence -- none of you have the intellectual maturity or intuition necessary to foster a real debate. Hence, the cyclic nature of your "arguments". I see you all posting and responding to the same sh*t every other page.

I mean, Christ, I've seen people praising Yuna as some paragon of logic employment -- an absolute joke if I've ever seen one. All this guy does is type a lot of bloated, non-filtered nonsense, seemingly inspired by acute menstrual pains. It is of my opinion that any thread this guy posts in becomes qualifiably worse.

Panda, do you want to do something truly constructive? Close this joke of a thread and start an official Item research thread -- hell, I think Items are legitimately deserving of their own sub-forum. That way, all of this nonsense is filtered out in a more focused effort and we can give the impression to outsiders that you're all putting an effort into actually moving forward, for once.


-Kimosabae

 

[Battousai780]

The only real consequence of this thread is the perpetuation of the harmful but legitimate stigmas and stereotypes leveled towards this community from the fighting game community at large -- the notion of this community consisting of little more than esoteric, whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

This thread is pathetic.

The "venting" is pointless and futile; the "why" for this has been presented to you repeatedly; but you all decide to b*tch aimlessly, regardless of the fact that EVO is ultimately meaningless to most, if not, all of you and Wizard remains immovable in his decisions.

Furthermore, the logic and subsequent arguments behind the anti-item sentiments here are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's a call for debate, but no such thing is taking place here; just a chorus of children screaming into a vacuum. With the exception of Wobbles, Timmay, Alpha and maybe Polarity -- his perspectival validity derives more from his exposure to the larger fighting game community than any real intelligence -- none of you have the intellectual maturity or intuition necessary to foster a real debate. Hence, the cyclic nature of your "arguments". I see you all posting and responding to the same sh*t every other page.

I mean, Christ, I've seen people praising Yuna as some paragon of logic employment -- an absolute joke if I've ever seen one. All this guy does is type a lot of bloated, non-filtered nonsense, seemingly inspired by acute menstrual pains. It is of my opinion that any thread this guy posts in becomes qualifiably worse.

Panda, do you want to do something truly constructive? Close this joke of a thread and start an official Item research thread -- hell, I think Items are legitimately deserving of their own sub-forum. That way, all of this nonsense is filtered out in a more focused effort and we can give the impression to outsiders that you're all putting an effort into actually moving forward, for once.


-Kimosabae

So basically, you decided to tell everyone that their anti-item argument is terrible and invalid while not providing any reasons as to why. Seems to me that you just can't counter their arguments, especially Yuna's, and are just bashing them. Provide me with a few reasons as to how items can be used without taking away from a player's skill or introducing an enormous luck factor and I might listen to you. kthxbai

 

[SynikaL]

Look at you assuming this has been one of the only posts I've made in this thread (or the one prior).

Anyone willing to utilize the sophomoric "kthnxbai", while resting his opinions on another man's shoulders isn't worth my time. Thanks for helping epitomize the stupidity present in this thread.


-Syn

 

[Battousai780]

Look at you assuming this has been one of the only posts I've made in this thread (or the one prior).

Anyone willing to utilize the sophomoric "kthnxbai", while resting his opinions on another man's shoulders isn't worth my time. Thanks for helping epitomize the stupidity present in this thread.


-Syn

I'm not entitled to believe in another man's opinions if they almost exactly the same as my own? Who gives you the right to tell me what I can and can't believe in? Also, if anyone is the epitome of stupid, it is you. You just skipped my whole post, provided no counter argument to the anti-item debate, and went straight to personal insults. You are the one who needs to grow up.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

The only real consequence of this thread is the perpetuation of the harmful but legitimate stigmas and stereotypes leveled towards this community from the fighting game community at large -- the notion of this community consisting of little more than esoteric, whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

This thread is pathetic.

The "venting" is pointless and futile; the "why" for this has been presented to you repeatedly; but you all decide to b*tch aimlessly, regardless of the fact that EVO is ultimately meaningless to most, if not, all of you and Wizard remains immovable in his decisions.

Furthermore, the logic and subsequent arguments behind the anti-item sentiments here are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's a call for debate, but no such thing is taking place here; just a chorus of children screaming into a vacuum. With the exception of Wobbles, Timmay, Alpha and maybe Polarity -- his perspectival validity derives more from his exposure to the larger fighting game community than any real intelligence -- none of you have the intellectual maturity or intuition necessary to foster a real debate. Hence, the cyclic nature of your "arguments". I see you all posting and responding to the same sh*t every other page.

I mean, Christ, I've seen people praising Yuna as some paragon of logic employment -- an absolute joke if I've ever seen one. All this guy does is type a lot of bloated, non-filtered nonsense, seemingly inspired by acute menstrual pains. It is of my opinion that any thread this guy posts in becomes qualifiably worse.

Panda, do you want to do something truly constructive? Close this joke of a thread and start an official Item research thread -- hell, I think Items are legitimately deserving of their own sub-forum. That way, all of this nonsense is filtered out in a more focused effort and we can give the impression to outsiders that you're all putting an effort into actually moving forward, for once.


-Kimosabae

As eloquently as that was written, you didn't address as single thing. All you did was use blanket statements to counter every argument that has been presented instead of truly contributing. If you think all of the anti-item debate is stupid and has no merit, then why not prove everyone wrong? Show us with your masterful debating skills that items are the next best thing since sliced bread. Of course, you WILL see some silly people come in that haven't read anything in this thread, only to post something that makes the collective pro-item and anti-item debaters moan in agony, but ignore those people. Don't bother responding to them. I've seen you contribute very little to this debate, and I don't even remember your posts. So bring them up again so people can subsequently begin to debate them to your heart's content.

As for a separate thread, I thought about that for a bit. But then I realized that there is already a thread in the Tactical discussion dedicated to creating a fairly balanced items-on Brawl. A thread that caters exactly to the pro-item crowd. If all the pro-item discussion can be done in a single thread, that continually has to be bumped by the way, then I sincerely doubt it deserves its own subforum.

Oh yeah, and I don't take kindly to people insulting my intelligence. Especially from someone who hasn't demonstrated any sort of intellectual maturity he claims others don't have.

 

[-Aether]

The only real consequence of this thread is the perpetuation of the harmful but legitimate stigmas and stereotypes leveled towards this community from the fighting game community at large -- the notion of this community consisting of little more than esoteric, whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

This thread is pathetic.

The "venting" is pointless and futile; the "why" for this has been presented to you repeatedly; but you all decide to b*tch aimlessly, regardless of the fact that EVO is ultimately meaningless to most, if not, all of you and Wizard remains immovable in his decisions.

Furthermore, the logic and subsequent arguments behind the anti-item sentiments here are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's a call for debate, but no such thing is taking place here; just a chorus of children screaming into a vacuum. With the exception of Wobbles, Timmay, Alpha and maybe Polarity -- his perspectival validity derives more from his exposure to the larger fighting game community than any real intelligence -- none of you have the intellectual maturity or intuition necessary to foster a real debate. Hence, the cyclic nature of your "arguments". I see you all posting and responding to the same sh*t every other page.

I mean, Christ, I've seen people praising Yuna as some paragon of logic employment -- an absolute joke if I've ever seen one. All this guy does is type a lot of bloated, non-filtered nonsense, seemingly inspired by acute menstrual pains. It is of my opinion that any thread this guy posts in becomes qualifiably worse.

Panda, do you want to do something truly constructive? Close this joke of a thread and start an official Item research thread -- hell, I think Items are legitimately deserving of their own sub-forum. That way, all of this nonsense is filtered out in a more focused effort and we can give the impression to outsiders that you're all putting an effort into actually moving forward, for once.


-Kimosabae

Translation: I like to flame people for providing accurate arguments. Because I don't have a decent argument, I will thus claim everyone elses sucks, and of course leave this claim unsubstantiated.


All you did was make accusations without backing them up. Of course, unlike you, I will give an example.

1. You called anti-item logic and arguments terrible. I can only guess you meant unsubstantiated; in which case you fail to tell us why. This is oddly hypocritical, because anti-tiem arguments are almost indubitably backed by evidence. One that is heavily used is that the Westcoast competitive scene used items early in melee's development. This, of course, was ultimated defeated because it made no god**** sense, and caused random upsets to occur. I'd list more but this thread has them spelled out clearly.

2. You clearly state that the community is unaware of any other competitive video game outside the Smash series in your first paragraph. Of course, you would know this was blatantly incorrect if you read my original post in this thread. I, among many other people, have played competitive video gaming. One other that I know in the MD/VA area is Plank. He competitively played StarCraft. It is naive to think that this community developed without a sense of other games.

I would continue to make a list, but I think you know what everyone else knows, deep down in your heart. Just because you made a post with somewhat fancy words and decent grammatical structure, you have proven nothing to anyone. All you have is unsubstantiated claims with a good deal of hate and bias backing them. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. We're all smart enough to read between the lines.

I beg you, if you have a shred of decency, at least try to back up what you say in your next post, instead of reading my post as a bash or flame, which it is not.

Edit: beat me to the punch, Panda.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Oh yeah, I forgot to address the fact Synikal said we don't know any other competitive video game outside of Smash.

Here's a fun fact: I played the very same 2d fighters present in EVO for years, before I ever even touched Smash as a serious fighter. I've played nearly every 2d fighter under the sun, so don't assume things that aren't true.

 

[Battousai780]

edited xDDD

 

[SynikaL]

As eloquently as that was written, you didn't address as single thing. All you did was use blanket statements to counter every argument that has been presented instead of truly contributing. If you think all of the anti-item debate is stupid and has no merit, then why not prove everyone wrong?

Before you allow your passions to rile you any further, you've posted numerous times earlier in this thread and the thread prior how stupid you felt this entire debate was -- but you've been active here anyway.

Regardless, my posts are here and in the prior thread addressing every point being discussed now. I care as little to disinter them now as you do. Sorry you never "saw" them.

This is where I unsubscribe from the thread. Existing in infamy in the hearts and minds of a videogame community are the least of my worries in life.


*edit*
BTW, never said Smash players never played any other fighter -- simply that, the community at large doesn't know anything about them. Whatever games you've "played" prior to Smash is irrelevant.

The inability to recognize and create distinctions: a necessary skill in any form of logic from rational thinking to grammatical syntax to mathematics. Thanks for personifying my point.

-Kye

 

[Battousai780]

Before you allow your passions to rile you any further, you've posted numerous times earlier in this thread and the thread prior how stupid you felt this entire debate was -- but you've been active here anyway.

Regardless, my posts are here and in the prior thread addressing every point being discussed now. I care as little to disinter them now as you do. Sorry you never "saw" them.

This is where I unsubscribe from the thread. Existing in infamy in the hearts and minds of a videogame community are the least of my worries in life.


*edit*
BTW, never said Smash players never played any other fighter -- simply that, the community at large doesn't know anything about them.

The inability to recognize and create distinctions: a necessary skill in any form of logic from rational thinking to grammatical syntax to mathematics. Thanks for personifying my point.

-Kye

Thanks for admitting defeat. You obviously couldn't think of any counter-arguments, did nothing but make personal insults, and are now giving up. I hope you come back and make a post, because then we can all see what a phony you are.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

.......

whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

BTW, never said Smash players never played any other fighter -- simply that, the community at large doesn't know anything about them. Whatever games you've "played" prior to Smash is irrelevant.

cog·ni·zance

1.awareness, realization, or knowledge; notice; perception: The guests took cognizance of the snide remark.
3.the range or scope of knowledge, observation, etc.: Such understanding is beyond his cognizance.


Proved wrong by your own vocabulary. How funny.

Oh yeah, and isn't "playing" another fighter constitute awareness of other fighting games? I guess I didn't even need to use a definition to prove you wrong.

 

[Samochan]

And so, in an effort to get this thread back on topic..

So if player 1 gets smash ball, is losing and KO's player 2 without using FS, does it change how much you need to beat the losing player in order to knock out the smash ball since the stocks are even/more even now? I'd be interested to see the test results on this.

So who's willing to test this? :3 Because those who are still going to evo despite rulesets (wobbles for example) might find the information useful.

I'd also like to know more about kirby's final smash, how many items it creates from a number of players cooked and if the items spawned depend entirely on the enabled items, or does it include disabled items as well.

Dedede item throw rate with waddle dee throw would be also neat to know. As for anyone that thinks it's false information that ddd can chuck items out of nowhere...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1cIElkQGK0

Let the item farming commence.

Edit: We must not forget the final smash glitches as well. Prolly the most well known one is the jiggs enlargement glitch, but this glitch is even more broken. Kirby traps all the opponents into the pot and then is stuck on the animation banging his pan and spatula together for the rest of the match. The assist trophy might be at fault here, but it's not proven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65LRf3e6wA

<_<

 

[Rebel581]

Can you not be such a downer all the time, SynikaL? I feel depressed just reading your posts.

 

[Battousai780]

Can you not be such a downer all the time, SynikaL? I feel depressed just reading your posts.

Ha, I get it. xDDD



Cynical

 

[SynikaL]

......

cog·ni·zance

1.awareness, realization, or knowledge; notice; perception: The guests took cognizance of the snide remark.
3.the range or scope of knowledge, observation, etc.: Such understanding is beyond his cognizance.


Proved wrong by your own vocabulary. How funny.

Oh yeah, and isn't "playing" another fighter constitute awareness of other fighting games? I guess I didn't even need to use a definition to prove you wrong.

Okay, I'll admit you caught me on one thing:

There's no way I can resist the ability to point out when someone is making a fool of himself.

Again, you prove your inability to create distinctions. If you can't see the difference between simply playing a game and having a real high-level awareness of a game's mechanics, you're truly lost.

If you really needed me to be hyper-descriptive in my phraseology, in the context of a high-level fighting game discussion; again, you are lost. I shouldn't have to qualify "playing" with "casual" nor "cognizance" with "high-level play".

I "played" Smash for several years without having any real cognizence of the game prior to finding smashboards. So did thousands of others.


If anything, again, it proves your lack of mental ability in another area: the art of implication (or deduction)-- that's if you truly believe in what you're typing and weren't simply just looking to respond). Where you believe I've left a hole in my argument, essentially, I've simply given your faculties too much credit. I have no time to create dissertations nor manifestos (maybe I should hire Yuna), nor should I have to in such an obvious context.

Rebel:

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm only saying what I truly feels this community needs to hear. I'm a cynic by nature and if you asked me, every group of individuals is better off with more than none.

-Syn

 

[RDK]

The only real consequence of this thread is the perpetuation of the harmful but legitimate stigmas and stereotypes leveled towards this community from the fighting game community at large -- the notion of this community consisting of little more than esoteric, whiney little b*tches with no real cognizance of anything beyond the Smash series.

This thread is pathetic.

The "venting" is pointless and futile; the "why" for this has been presented to you repeatedly; but you all decide to b*tch aimlessly, regardless of the fact that EVO is ultimately meaningless to most, if not, all of you and Wizard remains immovable in his decisions.

Furthermore, the logic and subsequent arguments behind the anti-item sentiments here are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's a call for debate, but no such thing is taking place here; just a chorus of children screaming into a vacuum. With the exception of Wobbles, Timmay, Alpha and maybe Polarity -- his perspectival validity derives more from his exposure to the larger fighting game community than any real intelligence -- none of you have the intellectual maturity or intuition necessary to foster a real debate. Hence, the cyclic nature of your "arguments". I see you all posting and responding to the same sh*t every other page.

I mean, Christ, I've seen people praising Yuna as some paragon of logic employment -- an absolute joke if I've ever seen one. All this guy does is type a lot of bloated, non-filtered nonsense, seemingly inspired by acute menstrual pains. It is of my opinion that any thread this guy posts in becomes qualifiably worse.

Panda, do you want to do something truly constructive? Close this joke of a thread and start an official Item research thread -- hell, I think Items are legitimately deserving of their own sub-forum. That way, all of this nonsense is filtered out in a more focused effort and we can give the impression to outsiders that you're all putting an effort into actually moving forward, for once.


-Kimosabae

Who the hell do you think you are to tell anyone, even people that deserve it, that they lack the intellectual maturity to carry on a debate when all you do is wax poetic and post nonsensical bull****? You must have some pretty big stones if you think you're a better debater than AlphaZealot, Polarity, or even Yuna.

Honestly, the only thing YOU contribute to this thread is occasionally popping in to ***** and moan about how we're b!tching and moaning. Gimme a break.

Also, the fact that you think the presence of items in the tournament scene is a good thing automatically cancels out whatever intelligence you happen to spout out of your garbage generator of a mouth.

Edit: Yes, 95% of the Smash community has no prior knowledge of any other fighting game out there, but that can be attributed to the fact that the same 95% is comprised of Brawl n00bs who jumped on the bandwagon when Brawl got released.

Point being, don't make shotgun generalizations. People in the community who know what they're talking about most likely have a history with other fighting games.

 

[SynikaL]

Also, the fact that you think the presence of items in the tournament scene is a good thing automatically cancels out whatever intelligence you happen to spout out of your garbage generator of a mouth.

Too bad you don't actually know me, or my actual stance regarding items -- you simply drew the wrong inferences using my tone as a gossamer foundation for your reason. Your power of implication is...bad.

See, this is too easy.

For the record, I'll say it an umpteenth time just for you: I don't like Items in Brawl (at this point), but I feel the new information coming to light regarding them is compelling and the only way to draw any definitive conclusions about their presence in Smash is to test them in tournaments. I feel that EVO -- since you guys should ultimately not care about EVO one way or another -- is as good a place to start as any. This thread should be closed to prevent ego driven derailments such as this one, with a new thread dedicated solely to Item Discussion to replace it.


BTW, you mentioned Polarity to be a "good debater", only to regard my assumed position as a pro-item sympathizer as an absolute credential for my lack of credibility. Just so you don't have to try and draw to many inferences here, Polarity was most definitely Pro-Item. Hopefully, you see the problem here.

Sorry you can't make the distinction between someone being direct and someone being truly arrogant. Your tangible anger towards me is corrupting what little debate skills you have.


-SynikaL

 

[RDK]

Too bad you don't actually know me, or my actual stance regarding items -- you simply drew the wrong inferences using my tone as a gossamer foundation for your reason. Your power of implication is...bad.

I don't really want to know you, but that's beside the point. If I wasn't lazy and actually took time to research your stance on items, I might have drawn a different conclusion. But I based my conclusion on what you posted. It's your fault for not elaborating on your stance, not my fault for misunderstanding it.

BTW, you mentioned Polarity to be a "good debater", only to regard my assumed position as a pro-item sympathizer as an absolute credential for my lack of credibility.

....and your point is? Polarity may be pro-item, but at least he makes sensible arguments and doesn't go around telling everyone how TERRIBLE their anti-item arguments are.

Sorry you can't make the distinction between someone being direct and someone being truly arrogant. Your tangible anger towards me is corrupting what little debate skills you have.

Well nothing youv'e posted so far isn't deserving of my anger--at least based upon what I've read. Everything I said about you still stands.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I shouldn't have to qualify "playing" with "casual" nor "cognizance" with "high-level play".

You obviously should. Get off your high horse for a second and try something I like to call "thinking." Why are you so adamant that I was never aware of "high-level play"? Because I used the word "playing" when I described how I played (and still play, by the way) 2d fighters?

If anything, again, it proves your lack of mental ability in another area: the art of implication (or deduction)

I'm not the one lacking in the art of implication, you are the one lacking in the ability to understand said implications. In the context of this argument it is quite obvious that playing other fighters at a casual level would be irrelavant. That much I thought was a given. So when I said "play" I implied that I actually am cognizant of the "high-level play" for said games. You simply convinced yourself there was no way that I could possibly be aware of high-level play for any other game, thus when I said "play" you automatically thought I meant I played those games casually. Newsflash: You are a presumptuous *******.

You're not even worth arguing against. You seem to think that a strong grasp of the English language is the only skill required to win in a debate, when you clearly demonstrated that you fail at anything requiring further intelligence. I'm not going to continue this anymore.



This is where personal arguments stop. If you want to continue them, do them through PMs. If you have something intelligent to contribute, then do so. But please move the focus back to researching/understanding items, as well as constructive conversations. Any more of this senseless bickering (that I myself am guilty of, which I apologize for) and this thread WILL be locked.

 

[SynikaL]

Panda:

Wow, guy. Your tactic is obvious; the delineations are simply to show you why it fails.

But maybe I am unintelligent (it must be true, since you say so). Maybe in that initial post, you weren't trying to tell me that "playing" a game gives you an inherent cognizance of it and your subsequent post isn't a smokescreen to aptly shroud ineptitude. Maybe, somehow, that idea that you personally may/may not have real cognizance of said games is completely poignant and relevant your "case".


I guess you win and this is over simply because you say it is.

RDX:

If you can't see the logical contradiction in your citing of Polarity, you are hopeless.


-Syn

 

[RDK]

Your jabbing at my slip-up about polarity only highlights the fact that you're dismissing the real issue at hand. That single sentence was the only part of my post that you acknowledged; cleverly dismissing the other 80% of my post doesn't help your public image any right now, especially after proving that you're nothing more than a petty troll (if not an elaborate one).

 

[SynikaL]

Nah, I just felt your hasty absolute judgement of me on multiple fronts was enough to sink your credibility. It was.

Okay, I don't want to be seen as the sole reason this thread is closed (despite the fact that nothing has been getting done since the item research), so I'm really done.
For real, for real.

Get me good Panda and RDX.


-Kimo
(I've said what I've needed to say)

 

[Axis]

I think the thing that Evo should note is that anyone serious about the game plays without items, thats just the way it is. It's been said before that Smash is basically a spinoff of games like mario party, and its 100% true. Smash is a game that unlike street fighter, wasn't a serious fighter by design...the serious game was found inside of it. Along with taking "Time" mode off as the default and changing it to stock and banning stupid levels that were random as all hell, items went by the wayside in tournaments through years of playing.

I dont know of any tournaments around here (online ones don't count) that are run with items, and it wont happen because no one will show up. Sure, we may play items and final smashes when were drunk and bored, but not when im driving an hour and paying into the tournament.

More to the point:

I WANT BRAWL TO GO WELL AT EVO!
BECAUSE THEN THEY WILL HAVE IT AGAIN!
but they're making it very hard on us to support them.

Forums are good and bad in their ability to give every member a voice to be heard.
It allows people to have an equal say in open community discussion no matter where they are coming from, giving us a wide view of everyone's opinions.
The downside? It allows people to have an equal say in open community discussion no matter where they are coming from, giving us a wide view of everyone's opinions.

This is the bottom line

The demographic of players that want items ARE NOT the same demographic that will get on a plane, fly to Vegas and compete in a large scale video game tournament that costs 50 to enter (generally speaking).

Its funny to go to local tournaments and ask people what they think face to face, and here is how just about every conversation went:

"Hey what do you think about those EVO rules?"
"Whats Evo?"
"Oh you know, the big yearly one in vegas"
"oh yea i think i know what youre talking about...what rules? Messed up stages?"
"Nope...Items on"
"(Laughing incurs) Are you serious?"
"Yea (I die a little in side)"
"Do those guys even play the game?"
"After the rules came out im pretty sure they dont"


anways thats just my 2 cents, i hope smash at evo isnt a disaster this year, i want it to be there in 2009!

/rant off

 

[IShotLazer]

I can see lives being changed from 2-4 stocks as long as a number of matches was met in accordance to them. I can even understand their stage selection, more or less.
However items are not fit and everyone knows that. Just earlier today, I was playing with a 10 year old kid, though I didn't like him much I decided I play with him just cus I was waiting for my girlfriend. Though I don't have evidence, This is all based on trust. He made the decision on his own that smashballs were unbalanced and took them off with no interence from me. It almost made me like him, though that might be saying to much.
If a 10 year old can figure out within 20 minutes of gameplay that an item is unbalanced, muchless ITEMS, then... ya....

Right now I don't know what EVO is going to do. It's actually hard for me to believe a contrary to the rules I usually go under. I go to a lot of local tournaments with little to no connections to SWF. They still play by the 3 stock no items rule though they do fiddle around with the stages a little (most actually just force final destination). How Mr. Wizard came up with such a specific rule set is .... well... I have no words for.
Either way I hope that EVO will change because they are a respected tourny holding company that keeps many games going.

 

[Axis]

I agree...stock changes may be an inconvenience (but understandable because of time issues) and stages that are arguably "bad" are an annoyance to deal with, but they don't drastically change how you play the game...items on will fundamentally change the way every player has to play, and thats where the problem is.

 

[IShotLazer]

-The demographic of players that want items ARE NOT the same demographic that will get on a plane, fly to Vegas and compete in a large scale video game tournament that costs 50 to enter (generally speaking).
Quote for justice.

 

[polarity]

I actually argued with Wiz at first that, despite my personal feelings that a ban on items was unwarranted, the items-off scene was the biggest competitive scene for Brawl, and thus Evo should defer to that scene in determining its rules. However, at that point I was under the impression that popularity was the single most important factor in determining a game's inclusion for Evo, so I argued that point on the basis of consistency. It's become evident that there are other factors that Evo considers more important, so "we're the biggest scene" isn't going to cut it as an argument, sorry.

More from Sirlin (who, by the way, is a member of the Evo committee who make their decisions democratically, as far as I know; Wiz is not the Hitlerian figure some of you seem to think)

To be clear, I am not advocating one stance or another. But the reasons given for items and smashballs being "broken" are not real reasons. Sure, there might be other reasons not to have them, but not the reasons in this thread.

That items might (or might not!) favor the loser. So what? Being the loser in Puzzle Fighter makes you stronger. Mario Kart has rubber banding effects, but it's an ok game. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has subtle effects that favor the loser and it's an excellent game. Having effects that favor a losing player is not something that you can call outright broken. If anything, it makes matches closer and more exciting and surely the better players will win anyway.

Next, I don't see why any items including smash balls are "broken." You might want to play a game without any items, and that is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with no items tournaments at all. But if you have decided to allow items, why not allow all of them? Because some items are "too good"? What does that mean and why does it matter? If a CHARACTER is too good, that does matter. You are locked into your character the entire round so if one character is 2x better than any other, the game is ruined. But if one item is 2x better, so what? How often does it appear in the huge list of items anyway? And once it does appear, you should try to get it. Your opponent knows you should try to get it. Gameplay can focus around getting or denying it. The mere fact that it's 2x better than any other item is not "broken." A more accurate statement would be "it creates a game I do not personally enjoy playing."

Yes, [whether a tournament should organize its own rules or use the majority accepted rule set] is the real question. It's more about which game should be played, not one of them being "broken." We all know that the Melee tournament community is no-items, so there's no need to speculate that somehow the Evolution staff does not know this. Yes, it is known. There are other factors though, such as all the new players wanting items and items being more interesting to watch to balance against the old-guard wanting no-items. If everything was truly left only to the smash community, you might find rules such as 10 minute matches with too many stocks, complicated stage striking systems, complicated character/stage picking order of events. And for some reason items are on, then complicated tier lists of which exact items should be allowed and not.

So regardless of what Evolution goes with, the Smash community is in dire need of a much, much simpler set of rules. All this complexity is not needed.

 

[IShotLazer]

Is there actually any way that any of us could at least get across to Mr.Wizard that items are bad? I know talking about it on a forum is one way but I feel like a much more direct method should be used. Such as video proof. The attendance of several other tournaments and their rules, I know that Gigabits in Orlando saw a record of about 120 people not too long ago, using the rules that we all abide by. They may or may not have held another one with at least the same if not more attendance, I judge this because of the boards discussion and frequent coversations about the next Gigs. This alone should be substantial proof. Also to point out that many people that go to Gigs travel 100+ miles so its not exactly a "local" tournament. I know if people pulled more evidence and records in the rules that we follow DO pull through and meet high attendence standards then I think we can get something done here.
I know there are various Tournaments held by Gimpy, I heard one was held by Chudat too. If attendence records for those could be shown that could help especially if the RE-ATTENDENCE records had more people under the same ruleset.

 

[Firestorm88]

Can you please allow another thread for the item research SamuraiPanda? I want to follow it without having to be subjected to posts by Yuna or SynikaL.

 

[BigRick]

Your opponent knows you should try to get it. Gameplay can focus around getting or denying it. The mere fact that it's 2x better than any other item is not "broken." A more accurate statement would be "it creates a game I do not personally enjoy playing.

This is an accurate statement.

But if one item is 2x better, so what? How often does it appear in the huge list of items anyway?

I can answer this question for Smash Balls, they spawn much more often than regular items. It feels like Sakurai gave them a preferential spawn rate so that FSes get used at least twice per match in average.

The only way to dramatically lower the smash balls spawn rate when they're turned on is by fighting on a Low spawn rate with Dragoon set to on. If a dragoon piece enters the playfield, then the slowly spawning dragoon pieces can make it so that the match is over before a smash ball has the time to spawn.

 

[Battousai780]

Someone should just go on youtube and watch the countless Brawl videos and make a highlight of all the times that items caused trouble and added to the confusion of a match. I don't think it would be that hard.

 

[Rebel581]

@ SynikaL

Big words do not make you smart. They just make you condescending (ooooh, big word).

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Polarity, out of curiosity, where did Sirlin say that? I've never really seen him post much about Smash (yet).

Anyways, to respond to your post, I've had ideas of why Mr. Wizard would go about putting items on in tournaments, and that confirms many of my thoughts. Items not being on in this tournament is NOT a matter of brokenness any longer. They have established amongst themselves that the "unfairness" or "brokenness" of items is not enough to warrant a ban. They are correct, to an extent, with that thinking. However, I have addressed that issue in one of my posts that I continually respond with; Items-on versus items-off is NOT a matter of banning items. It is simply a setting within the game, much like time or stock. Many people cite that items are "random" or "broken" as reasons for why they aren't used in competitive Smash. To a point, that may be true, but the best reason is simply because this is the setting that the competitive Smash scene enjoys to play with. I've continually asked them to not look at this as a matter of brokenness, but they have either ignored me, or more likely, have other reasons for having items on.

So let me list out the reasons I believe EVO chose to put items on in their tournament:

1. They aren't "broken"
I have just addressed this above.

2. The rules for competitive Smash are too complex, and need simplification
Simple rules make smoother and easier tournaments, and give newcomers an easier time adjusting to the competitive scene. This is true. And trust me, the future ruleset is going to become increasingly complicated. I can see why, from their perspective, that this is a bad thing. They are used to fighting games where they only need to emulate the arcade versions and they are good to go for tournaments. But Smash isn't made to be a competitive game. Smash was meant to be a party game, but ended up being much deeper than anybody could have possibly expected. Yet, because of what Smash was meant to be, we have inherent balance issues when we convert it to a competitive game. Thats the entire idea. We, the competitive Smash community, are collectively converting a party game into a competitive game, almost like making a new game altogether. In a way, we are almost like developers (albeit with limited options). As developers of competitive Smash, it is our responsibility to tweak the game and make sure the game is as fair as possible for all parties. Smash is not inherently balanced for one on one situations in a tournament setting like normal fighting games are supposed to be. That is why Smash is unique in terms of rules, and requires a unique perspective from other fighting games. We are responsible to balance this new game. This is a tough job given what limitations we have in the game. Which is, unfortunately, why our rules are so complicated.

3. Smash is a huge game now, and SRK is missing out
This one is actually from a business standpoint. Those behind SRK have seen how popular Smash has become. They've seen the incredible growth in the community and the size we have grown to be. SRK is supposed to be the best place to go for nearly every fighting game out there. But not Smash. No, they didn't like Melee or 64 very much in the past. So, they want to open their doors now that Brawl is out, and try to get a piece of the Smash pie. But between SWF and AllisBrawl, who would want to go to SRK? There is no reason for yet another site for Smash. But, with Brawl, there is an influx of new people. Many of those new people barely know how competitive Smash works, despite wanting to be a part of it, and are likely still playing with items on, because they can't figure out why they've been banned. That is SRK's ticket to a new community. A niche that has opened with the release of a new game that will allow them to be a source that none of the other sites can provide: An alternative ruleset, with items. While they may be losing out on us, they are actually investing in the future. If they had a tournament using our rules, why would anybody stick to SRK over SWF? They would definitely have a bigger turnout, but their own community wouldn't grow very much at all. With items on, they're hoping that this becomes a long-term investment, by planting a seed they hope will grow. And you know what? Its smart from a business standpoint, and I can't fault them for thinking that way. But from SWF's experience, there really isn't very many people interested in competitive Smash with items on, and this new community they may or may not build, probably won't last very long. But who knows what the future holds. They may actually succeed.

4. This early in the game, Brawl is just not very fun to watch
Every Melee player, and many Brawl players, all complain that Brawl is so boring to watch. Many players play overly defensive games, and the entire game itself just plain runs slower. If you've ever seen videos of EVO, you'll notice the crowd cheering when something awesome happens. That is one of the biggest appeals of EVO; a game that is fun to play competitively AND is fun to watch. I've heard that Melee at EVO last year was awesome... for Smashers. Some SRK members are adamant that anybody who wasn't in the Smash scene just plain didn't enjoy watching the Melee finals. They didn't know what was going on! And the same applied for Smash fans to other EVO games. The majority of people who play Smash have only really played Smash at a competitive level. Hell, many of them likely haven't even played MvC2 before. So Smash fans don't really watch the other games as much, and they don't really "add" to the EVO spectatorship. But they can at least alleviate one of those two problems. The game boring to watch for EVO regulars, Melee, just became more boring to watch. But throw in something like items, and now the game speeds up a bit. There is more speed, more action, more things going on, and overall more fun to watch. Also, if items are on low, then that really doesn't matter. An item every now and then really doesn't add too many items, so its still not entertaining. But what about a steady stream of items every 8-14 seconds when you up the spawn rate to medium? That is definitely more crazy, and will definitely provide a better experience for the people watching who never liked watching Smash before.

5. They honestly believe they can create a better competitive Smash than we can
This is one of the few truly negative points here. They believe that with all their "experience" and "intelligence" that they would create a better version of competitive Smash than we at SWF can. Like I said before, the community is essentially the development team for this new competitive version of Smash. The guys behind EVO/SRK don't like our competitive version. And they think they are better "developers" than we are. This is truly a smack in the face to every person who considers themselves a competitive Smasher, and is one of the main reasons so many people are up-in-arms about this entire issue. It takes a special and deep kind of arrogance to do what they are doing.



I'm sure there are more reasons than that, though. I even forgot a point or two while I was typing that all out. But I honestly believe that no amount of logic, evidence, or debate will change what EVO is doing. Its unfortunate, but its true.

 

[IShotLazer]

It's called doublespeak.
Doublespeak (sometimes double talk) is language constructed to disguise or distort its actual meaning, often resulting in a communication bypass. Doublespeak may take the form of bald euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs) or deliberate ambiguity. Doublespeak is a disparaging label for any euphemistic term perceived to be uttered in bad faith.

When someone uses blanket statements they cover it up in fancy words. Sounds stupid but a lot of people buy into anyway. Just read past it.

Either way, we shouldn't focus on downgrading someone instead focus at the matter at hand. EVO is gonna suck (if it doesn't then, Good job for it, but it won't due to contrary evidence). Unless we make sure without a reason of a doubt that they will profit more from having No items selected then they are gonna stick to it.