Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Methacrylate]

If no changes were to exist, why were some characters like Jigglypuff and Mewtwo ruled out immediately but Cloud and WFT still are an enigma? I would think that would mean there would be some kind of change, even if it's extremely minor.

We take the character files of v1.1.3 and run it through a difference checker with the character files of v1.1.4, this is why characters like Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can be ruled out so quickly as zero differences were found for their files. To answer why Cloud and WFT are still enigmas, you need to know that basically each character has two files which fully described them: a file with all the moves and hitboxes and a file with a set of parameters. Cloud and WFT have changes in their parameter file, what those parameters are associated with is anyone's guess at this point as there is no clear label in the file which states what the parameter is for, so when Zapp Branniglenn says:

We've already ruled out the possibility of hitbox changes, endlag changes, and base stat changes for Cloud and WFT. The only possibilities that remain are visual effects or something even less relevant than bug fixing I-frames for trip-related actions. I hate to be a broken record, but we really shouldn't make the assumption that there is anything at all to find in the first place. Every patch delivers unknown parameter changes. And when one or two remain unknown for this long, it's not because "nobody cares". It's because we've reached the end of the road for things to look at days ago.

just know that the parameter change will most likely not be attributed to the mechanics of the characters, so for all intensive purposes the change will not impact the actual gameplay.

 

[Sammi Husky]

We take the character files of v1.1.3 and run it through a difference checker with the character files of v1.1.4, this is why characters like Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can be ruled out so quickly as zero differences were found for their files. To answer why Cloud and WFT are still enigmas, you need to know that basically each character has two files which fully described them: a file with all the moves and hitboxes and a file with a set of parameters. Cloud and WFT have changes in their parameter file, what those parameters are associated with is anyone's guess at this point as there is no clear label in the file which states what the parameter is for, so when Zapp Branniglenn says:



just know that the parameter change will most likely not be attributed to the mechanics of the characters, so for all intensive purposes the change will not impact the actual gameplay.

Pretty much this. I've checked and posted all the dumps of chars who had changes to ACMD files days ago. As far as that goes, as long as people have checked and double checked the dumps, ACMD changes are done. Parameters maybe not, but hitboxes and such are.

 

[TsarofToon]

I think Mario's Up-B was Buffed. I am killing with it a lot more often, and I did this exact same combo pre Patch as well, but never killing. I was at 14%, R.O.B was at 95%. I uair twice and do a up be, killing at 114%. Can someone check Marios up-b and confirm or deny it was Buffed? Please and Thank you

 

[Fatmanonice]

I didn't call him/her a filthy casual. That's you making a connection I never did. I was answering Masonomace's question truthfully because I knew no one would answer it correctly and you, a mod, proved me right. The patch has been out for days. There have been found and confirmed Little Mac buffs. Obviously something as big as improved recovery would have been found before his other things. If you think about this for one second you will know I'm right.

But ok Mr.Mod stick up for the person that didn't put one second of thought into his/her post and call him/her community. Praise them for posting something and contributing "Could someone confirm if Little Mac's up b height got buffed?" instead of saying hey man that makes no sense and here is why. You are just happy they are posting regardless of the content. No it's not harmful but it's not helpful either and I was honestly answering a question no one else would answer. This board was WAY more vulgar years ago and it was much better then.

Because there's no need to beat a dead horse. They were wrong. They were corrected. It happens every day in almost every board. It's not helpful when people are wrong but, whatever, because there's plenty of people here who are right and practically follow these games as if it were their religion. If the clutter is particularly obnoxious, it gets weeded out. More or less saying people shouldn't be here if they're wrong or naive about a subject is, itself, obnoxious. The example I've been giving for years is how Mew2King thought Mewtwo was one of the best characters in Melee when he first joined. He was hilariously wrong but, whatever, he learned otherwise with time and everybody here can do that and should be allowed to do that. People can be wrong and they're allowed to eat crow if they are. Saying they're not part of the community based on how much they know goes against the point of these forums to begin with. People come here to learn and there's a myriad of resources available to them here including the best players in the world in each game. Being wrong isn't a capital crime and simply correcting people isn't as big of an inconvenience as you're implying it to be.

TsarofToon

It wasn't. Mario was one of the characters who didn't receive any changes in this last patch. The difference you experienced could have been based on the stage you were playing on having a lower ceiling.

 

[FUEGO!]

I think Mario's Up-B was Buffed. I am killing with it a lot more often, and I did this exact same combo pre Patch as well, but never killing. I was at 14%, R.O.B was at 95%. I uair twice and do a up be, killing at 114%. Can someone check Marios up-b and confirm or deny it was Buffed? Please and Thank you

Depending on what stage you were on and how high up into the ceiling you were, that is not new I'm afraid.

 

[TsarofToon]

Depending on what stage you were on and how high up into the ceiling you were, that is not new I'm afraid.

I only do Omega form Stages.

I only do Omega form Stages.

Also I was the same height as before when I do the combo. I really think It was changed. Then again, probably not

Because there's no need to beat a dead horse. They were wrong. They were corrected. It happens every day in almost every board. It's not helpful when people are wrong but, whatever, because there's plenty of people here who are right and practically follow these games as if it were their religion. If the clutter is particularly obnoxious, it gets weeded out. More or less saying people shouldn't be here if they're wrong or naive about a subject is, itself, obnoxious. The example I've been giving for years is how Mew2King thought Mewtwo was one of the best characters in Melee when he first joined. He was hilariously wrong but, whatever, he learned otherwise with time and everybody here can do that and should be allowed to do that. People can be wrong and they're allowed to eat crow if they are. Saying they're not part of the community based on how much they know goes against the point of these forums to begin with. People come here to learn and there's a myriad of resources available to them here including the best players in the world in each game. Being wrong isn't a capital crime and simply correcting people isn't as big of an inconvenience as you're implying it to be.

TsarofToon

It wasn't. Mario was one of the characters who didn't receive any changes in this last patch. The difference you experienced could have been based on the stage you were playing on having a lower ceiling.

Like I said to FUEGO, I only do Omega Form Stages, and I have used it at the same percent as pre patch

 

[Furret24]

Please don't triple post. It's against the rules. Just use the edit button.

 

[TsarofToon]

Please don't triple post. It's against the rules. Just use the edit button.

Sorry (

 

[Meshima]

I don't know if this has already mentioned, but characters who changed its weight in THIS patch is only , and .
In short, the weight of , and had already changed in 1.1.3.
I wonder why Sakurai and monitor team nerfed Sonic earlier than Sheik...

 

[Nefnoj]

I think Villager has more endlag on his grab if it misses.

 

[Sammi Husky]

My list of all the changed characters dumps is in the official patch notes thread, just scroll to the bottom of the first page. Nobody else received code changes to ACMD script. AFAIK nothing outside ACMD should affect kill percents other than the opposing character's weight changing, and nothing should affect endlag either. Landing lag is a different story though, that's in parameters iirc.

The distance some recoveries go, maybe, but iirc parameters aren't fully understood and alot of the things it governs are entirely unknown. There is also the possibility that certain character's recovery distance could have changed if their animations changed. However, we've never diffed those in the past that i know of, and the animation format isn't understood yet so it would be almost impossible anyways

 

[MZG20]

I want to know who can look at Jigglypuff and Zelda and say, "oh yeah, that's fine. They're fine."

Yesss, someone noticed it.
Alright, to be honest, I think Zelda has a lot of potential. Fair and bair are some of the best in the game. With practice, it is possible to connect a lot of them, they hurt a lot and they kill really easily. And then, there's the dair, a potent meteor which can kill at 0%. Finally, the up b. Good recover, can be ledge cancelled and kills. But KILLS.
However, what daddy Sakurai is doing to Jigglypuff has no name. I consider her to be the worst character in the game. I chose her to be my main, and that's how it is now. She's definitely my best character, and I get decent results in tournaments, but she has a lot of flaws. Some people say rest is OP, bair is OP, wall of pain is OP. But she has pretty much nothing. No grab follow ups, really complicated rest set ups and she dies really early, due to her ballon weight

 

[Dagon97]

I don't understand why people say is so good in doubles.
I can't think of any strategies with her that would be exceptional tbh.

 

[Teshie U]

I don't understand why people say is so good in doubles.
I can't think of any strategies with her that would be exceptional tbh.

Absurd range and power on key moves. The broken counter that now your teammate can set off for you. The follow up game is pretty much insane with Uair and Up B having massive hitboxes and killing way earlier than they should.

Then the really annoying full screen projectile that stuns for..absurd amounts of time that is otherwise mitigated by his own lag in singles.

 

[Ffamran]

Once again, please discuss anything related to the metagame, a character's metagame, or general competition discussion in their character boards e.g. discussions of Fox in the Fox character boards, in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/, or in a PM. Please only discuss the patch e.g. knockback, damage, frame changes, animation changes, visual changes, etc., here.

 

[Megamang]

Absurd range and power on key moves. The broken counter that now your teammate can set off for you. The follow up game is pretty much insane with Uair and Up B having massive hitboxes and killing way earlier than they should.

Then the really annoying full screen projectile that stuns for..absurd amounts of time that is otherwise mitigated by his own lag in singles.

The stun especially is deadly. If you learn how it releases, its a perfect setup for a strong finishing touch kill absurdly low.

Her low lag, huge aerials also protect her from the chaos efficiently. I believe her kill throws have strong AoE damage as well. Pin kick moves her around with a rather strong hitbox. She can turn around and f-smash assist her teammate for solid early kills with relative safey. Unlike ZSS, her paralyzer has a deadly self protection mechanism. Like said before, it also travels full screen. Side B tipper offstage kills are easier to spot in the less focused doubles atmosphere...

Pin kick especially is safe for her and can lead to strong team followups. She is heavyish, which is nice compared to ZSS. (Im comparing to ZSS as she is a strong doubles character with a paralyzer).

 

[LRodC]

@Liberation Just letting you know that there's a typo in Bowser Jr's changes. There's a random bracket next to the side smash text.

 

[xzx]

Hey, great work everyone who contributed! It is really appreciated. Having someone figuring out the changes in a patch is truly very hard work, but it is really appreciated nonetheless!! Thank you very much!

 

[Ffamran]

Since, I don't have jurisdiction to post in the patch notes thread, @LordWilliam1234, the startup of Falco's Up Smash's second hit came from the diff checker: https://www.diffchecker.com/kv1k9sgq. I'm going off that since the first hit still has a Synchronous_Timer of 4 frames, then the first hit is frame 7-11 from pre-1.1.4's 8-12 and that the second hit pre-1.1.4 was frame 13-20 and assuming it was only sped up, means that Up Smash was just 1 frame faster and that everything was moved a frame back, the second hit would be 1 frame faster at 12-19 like launch / pre-1.0.6 Falco's Up Smash. The problem with this is that there aren't any "markers" to say what frame the second hit is called on in the diff checker and I think back when I data mined Falco with Dantarion's mastercore.

When people noted that Falco's Up Smash hit 1 hit lower and faster, I had 2 theories: 1. Falco's Up Smash hit 1 hitbox was lowered down and they sped up the move by 1 frame and 2. Falco's Up Smash hit 1 gained a new hitbox that was on frame 7. Both pretty much do the same thing, but are explained in different ways... If it really is frame 13 for hit 2 and going off yours and KuroganeHammer's frame data (and presumably sixriver's), then the second theory is the valid one.

 

[Lavani]

There's another synchronous timer between hits 1 and 2 that had another frame added to it though.

Prepatch: 8+1+4
Postpatch: 7+2+4

Second hit should be the same frame it's always been.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bayonetta is sometimes ungrabbable. This time it's Toon Link's tethergrab that went right through her. Both chars are facing each other and a small distance apart, so it isn't just a "hurtboxes lol" thing like Sheik's issue. In this case, it was shortly after Tink set off a Witch Time without getting caught in it, and after a powershield of a returning boomerang.

Video includes 15 seconds of lead-in for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpb24kvNeCc

 

[UberMadman]

Bayonetta is sometimes ungrabbable. This time it's Toon Link's tethergrab that went right through her. Both chars are facing each other and a small distance apart, so it isn't just a "hurtboxes lol" thing like Sheik's issue. In this case, it was shortly after Tink set off a Witch Time without getting caught in it, and after a powershield of a returning boomerang.

Video includes 15 seconds of lead-in for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpb24kvNeCc

When Bayonetta shields, her legs shift somewhat into the Z-axis, which causes the problems characters have grabbing her. (No characters have this problem on Duck Hunt or Omega Flat Zone.) However, most characters only have this problem attempting to grab her from behind, so it's interesting to see this phenomenon documented from the front.

 

[RonNewcomb]

When Bayonetta shields, her legs shift somewhat into the Z-axis, which causes the problems characters have grabbing her. (No characters have this problem on Duck Hunt or Omega Flat Zone.) However, most characters only have this problem attempting to grab her from behind, so it's interesting to see this phenomenon documented from the front.

With a tethergrab that goes completely through her block bubble, I don't see how facing a particular direction would make any difference. And with Smash's recent history of ungrabable glitched state Diddy, air/ground confusion glitched state Wario, and Corrin's forever grab, it wouldn't surprise me if something dark lurks deep in the heart of witches.

But I'm less concerned with why or how it happens than if we'll get a bugfix patch for this and Corrin's issues. At least Corrin's indefinite hold duration a TO can rule illegal.

 

[Jibbmil]

You forgot about toon links up throw. It now does 6% instead of 7%

 

[ARGHETH]

You forgot about toon links up throw. It now does 6% instead of 7%

...
It still does 7%, testing on 3DS training mode. You might have staled his Uthrow, resulting in 6% instead of 7%.

 

[Jibbmil]

...
It still does 7%, testing on 3DS training mode. You might have staled his Uthrow, resulting in 6% instead of 7%.

Im pretty sure of my resuslts. i tested it on wiiu btw. in training mode

 

[Methacrylate]

Im pretty sure of my resuslts. i tested it on wiiu btw. in training mode

The problem with your results is that they do not agree with the data dump. The change you are stating would be in Toon Link's ACMD file which shows no change to up throw.

 

[Pyr]

10 TLink up throws = 70 damage. Done on Wii-U on Mario.

 

[ARGHETH]

Im pretty sure of my resuslts. i tested it on wiiu btw. in training mode

I tested it in training mode and it does 7%. The data also agrees with me.

 

[Shaya]

PSA: Apparently you can't footstool your teammate anymore in doubles with the most recent patch. And yes Team attack was turned on.
Can anyone else confirm this???

I feel like this may've got swept under the rug a bit for the patch notes area.
But this is interesting and I don't think it's been noted yet.

 

[Yikarur]

I feel like this may've got swept under the rug a bit for the patch notes area.
But this is interesting and I don't think it's been noted yet.

You could've never footstooled your partner. It's not new.

 

[Jibbmil]

I feel like this may've got swept under the rug a bit for the patch notes area.
But this is interesting and I don't think it's been noted yet.

Found out it did 6% on dk. idk why because all other throws does 7. see for yourself

 

[ARGHETH]

Apparently, the first hit of TL's Uthrow does 4% instead of 5% against DK. I have no idea why or if this was present pre-patch, but it's a thing. This also happens with Captain Falcon, and for both of them this occurs outside training mode as well. Also, against Rosalina , Uthrow sometimes does 6% if it hits Luma...I think. I can't figure out why, though, and it's really annoying to test.

 

[Meshima]

Apparently, the first hit of TL's Uthrow does 4% instead of 5% against DK. I have no idea why or if this was present pre-patch, but it's a thing. This also happens with Captain Falcon, and for both of them this occurs outside training mode as well. Also, against Rosalina , Uthrow sometimes does 6% if it hits Luma...I think. I can't figure out why, though, and it's really annoying to test.

The first hit of his Up-throw has 2 hitboxes, 4% is near the sword handle.
DK and CF doesn't go up enough to collide with 5% hitbox, so TL always does 4% instead of 5% against them.

Spoiler: Code from Mastercore

~~~
AsynchronousTimer(26.000000)#frame 26
Hitbox_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3e9, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x82, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=3.840000, X=6.800000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xa, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3e9, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x82, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=3.840000, X=2.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xa, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
~~~

 

[Furret24]

The first hit of his Up-throw has 2 hitboxes, 4% is near the sword handle.
DK and CF doesn't go up enough to collide with 5% hitbox, so TL always does 4% instead of 5% against them.

Spoiler: Code from Mastercore

~~~
AsynchronousTimer(26.000000)#frame 26
Hitbox_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3e9, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x82, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=3.840000, X=6.800000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xa, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3e9, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x82, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=3.840000, X=2.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xa, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
~~~

There's only one question left.

Why on earth did they give Toon Link's Up Throw a sourspot?

 

[LancerStaff]

There's only one question left.

Why on earth did they give Toon Link's Up Throw a sourspot?

FFAs I guess. I don't think they intended for the sourspot to hit the person Toon Link was throwing, though...

 

[Meshima]

I extracted some value changes from their param files, have no idea though.

: 0023D0 - 0023E0

• 00000032 -> 0000012C (50 -> 300)
  
• 00000032 -> 0000012C (50 -> 300)

: 001430 - 001460

• 1E -> 00 (30 -> 0)
• 1E -> 00 (30 -> 0)
  
• 1E -> 00 (30 -> 0)

: 0025D0 - 002600

• 41400000 -> 41200000 (12 -> 10)
• 41700000 -> 41500000 (15 -> 13)
• 41100000 -> 40F9999A (9 -> 7.8)
• 41800020 -> 41600020 (16 -> 14)

 

[Sammi Husky]

Sorry, i know it's super late but i finally got to dump the 1.1.4 character attributes. Didn't diff them, but people can use these spreadsheets to confirm changes. Character's in the 1.1.4 sheet who are highlighted have changes.

EDIT: Also, these are just the char attributes. The character specific parameter files that have subaction specific values aren't included

 

[arbustopachon]

So acording to this Zard's jumpsquat is one frame faster, thats kinda neat. it used to be 7 and now its 6.

 

[Sammi Husky]

So acording to this Zard's jumpsquat is one frame faster, thats kinda neat. it used to be 7 and now its 6.

If so, it must have been done before 1.1.4 and we just missed it since it's 6 in 1.1.3 as well it seems