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The freackin truth behind the infinite and stuff about d3
- Thread starter Pompi
- Start date
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
what a interesting thread >_> shoulda said, that i wanted to know (and others to know) if theres any other tricks behind the infnite, (like you had to refresh etc etc stuff). but yeah help D3 mainers :]
Ok a bit more input on what Pompi is trying to say here:
We are discussing the D3 match-up on the Luigi boards. The big question here is what is the real mechanism behind the infinite. We have had a couple of posters claiming that it can be escaped, some say it can be escaped at lower percentages some say it can't be escaped. Clarification on this doubt will be very much appreciated.
Also, any other general knowledge revolving the match-up is appreciated as well, but the big question here is the infinite (which is what, to our understanding) limits Luigi's potential in the match-up.
We are discussing the D3 match-up on the Luigi boards. The big question here is what is the real mechanism behind the infinite. We have had a couple of posters claiming that it can be escaped, some say it can be escaped at lower percentages some say it can't be escaped. Clarification on this doubt will be very much appreciated.
Also, any other general knowledge revolving the match-up is appreciated as well, but the big question here is the infinite (which is what, to our understanding) limits Luigi's potential in the match-up.
Vayseth
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A
Let me do some explaining here:
I play against some of the best Luigi players in the midwest in Sandwhich and TheMann. What I have noticed when I play against Luigi that his game involves a lot of constant pressure and comboing. Also, Luigi's key feature is his FAST aerials and his relatively low lag. However, Luigi does not really approach on the ground, he approaches in the air because of his aerials. His ground game is not super good, but his down B can get him in and out quickly for some quick pokes.
All of this together gives Dedede MANY opportunities for shield grabs. As a Luigi player, you need to be EXTREMELY careful as to not get shield grabbed, because this will start the infinite. However, you also have to watch out because if you're just floating around in front of him, you will likely be in up tilt range. That's what should be going on in a King Dedede main's head. The luigi player really only has two options and that is throw fireballs from midrange or approach with quick aerials. Both of which can quickly change into King Dedede's favor.
Key information on the infinite:
Ankoku and I originally did a lot of research on this infinite and he came to the conclusion that the "stale moves list" only has 9 moves in it maximum. Here's how that applies to King Dedede:
With Mario, Luigi, and Samus for some reason after 5 consecutive down throws, the move stales and King Dedede is not able to regrab them. With Samus and Mario, however, they can be regular chain grabbed afterwards, which usually leads to an easy zero to 70% combo in addition to an edge guarding attempt. Luigi players are lucky in the sense that Luigi slides all over the place and prevents King Dedede from chain grabbing him regularly so he can't follow up. This is where the stale moves list comes in...
If I do 5 consecutive throws, you break out between the 5th and the 6th throw. However, a grab attack (Dedede's head butt) also counts as a move in the stale move list. Look at these possible stale move lists:
1. down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw
You will break out automatically after the 5th throw
2. down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw
Here's 9 moves in the stale move list alternating a punch and a down throw. Since the next move would be a punch the next stale move list would read:
punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch
Since there are NEVER more than 5 down throws in the stale move list if you add in a punch between each throw, the move will never stale and it is an infinite.
As far as being able to get out at early percents goes, in smash you are naturally more and more unable to break out of throws the higher your percent is at. So, at 0% you can break out RIGHT after a punch where by 50% a punch is nearly guaranteed if the King Dedede player buffers in the punch after the grab. Which means they can infinite you starting at around 50%. That's why the infinite is so good and so hard to break out of.
I hope that helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.
Let me do some explaining here:
I play against some of the best Luigi players in the midwest in Sandwhich and TheMann. What I have noticed when I play against Luigi that his game involves a lot of constant pressure and comboing. Also, Luigi's key feature is his FAST aerials and his relatively low lag. However, Luigi does not really approach on the ground, he approaches in the air because of his aerials. His ground game is not super good, but his down B can get him in and out quickly for some quick pokes.
All of this together gives Dedede MANY opportunities for shield grabs. As a Luigi player, you need to be EXTREMELY careful as to not get shield grabbed, because this will start the infinite. However, you also have to watch out because if you're just floating around in front of him, you will likely be in up tilt range. That's what should be going on in a King Dedede main's head. The luigi player really only has two options and that is throw fireballs from midrange or approach with quick aerials. Both of which can quickly change into King Dedede's favor.
Key information on the infinite:
Ankoku and I originally did a lot of research on this infinite and he came to the conclusion that the "stale moves list" only has 9 moves in it maximum. Here's how that applies to King Dedede:
With Mario, Luigi, and Samus for some reason after 5 consecutive down throws, the move stales and King Dedede is not able to regrab them. With Samus and Mario, however, they can be regular chain grabbed afterwards, which usually leads to an easy zero to 70% combo in addition to an edge guarding attempt. Luigi players are lucky in the sense that Luigi slides all over the place and prevents King Dedede from chain grabbing him regularly so he can't follow up. This is where the stale moves list comes in...
If I do 5 consecutive throws, you break out between the 5th and the 6th throw. However, a grab attack (Dedede's head butt) also counts as a move in the stale move list. Look at these possible stale move lists:
1. down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw
You will break out automatically after the 5th throw
2. down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw
Here's 9 moves in the stale move list alternating a punch and a down throw. Since the next move would be a punch the next stale move list would read:
punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch
Since there are NEVER more than 5 down throws in the stale move list if you add in a punch between each throw, the move will never stale and it is an infinite.
As far as being able to get out at early percents goes, in smash you are naturally more and more unable to break out of throws the higher your percent is at. So, at 0% you can break out RIGHT after a punch where by 50% a punch is nearly guaranteed if the King Dedede player buffers in the punch after the grab. Which means they can infinite you starting at around 50%. That's why the infinite is so good and so hard to break out of.
I hope that helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
I see... So after 5 dthrows it turns stale? So im guessing, dthrow is 8% per damage meaning 8x5= 40% damage off the bat?
Also just to add to luigi info, luigis reliable approach is basically fireballing and quick tornado (it outprioritizes the projectile spam except gordo, i forgot) Dair > Nair approach is his most predictable combo starter and its easily shield grab with ease by d3.
also when you mean "punch" you do mean the pummel or grab attack w/e it is? and you would or you wouldnt be able to break out of it during the "punch"?
Also just to add to luigi info, luigis reliable approach is basically fireballing and quick tornado (it outprioritizes the projectile spam except gordo, i forgot) Dair > Nair approach is his most predictable combo starter and its easily shield grab with ease by d3.
also when you mean "punch" you do mean the pummel or grab attack w/e it is? and you would or you wouldnt be able to break out of it during the "punch"?
Vayseth
Smash Master
Yes, but if you noticed I said if you throw a punch inbetween the throws the stale move list refreshes, meaning there's never a sixth down throw which means it can continue. And because you're nearly guaranteed a punch after 50%, it's an infinite as long as you do it fast enough.
Interesting, as you have said stale moves have a definite effect on how stale moves affect the infinite.
Another question though, DI wise, smash DI'ing, or any other type of DI does not affect the infinites effects I presume?
Another question though, DI wise, smash DI'ing, or any other type of DI does not affect the infinites effects I presume?
Vayseth
Smash Master
No, the Dedede player regrabs those in their hitstun, meaning no inputs have any effect, just like when Wario or Squirtle are released up out of a grab.
laird
Smash Apprentice
if you pummel in between the dthrows, it is a legitimate infinite, inescapable except on error of the DDD.
its pretty easy to do imho as well, though not as stupid as DK.
its pretty easy to do imho as well, though not as stupid as DK.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Also, (probably same question as Loc's), any button mashing like wise doesn't work UNLESS the d3 player is too slow or messes up the infinite? correct me If im wrong.
Vayseth
Smash Master
Yeah, but you can mash out at LOW percents (like under 50% I think). That's if they try to punch. The initial 5 if they just do them without punches, will work no matter what unless they are too slow.
Man, I'd say anything that forces a D3 player to move. Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise. The problem being he just has to grab you more times to kill you is all. I don't think the match up is any easier, just longer, lol.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
as far as stage goes, i'd say battlfield is good.
u can just fight around the platforms and generally if u get grabbed on a platform, chances are ur too close to an edge to get infinited. it doesnt work wen they throw u off the edge.
i would say CAMP the platforms, but try to make it so most of the fight after 0% is there. (wario players do this to me and the fight becomes alot harder because of it.)
lemme rephrase that.
its not alot harder, its just less easier.... if that makes any sense.
u can just fight around the platforms and generally if u get grabbed on a platform, chances are ur too close to an edge to get infinited. it doesnt work wen they throw u off the edge.
i would say CAMP the platforms, but try to make it so most of the fight after 0% is there. (wario players do this to me and the fight becomes alot harder because of it.)
lemme rephrase that.
its not alot harder, its just less easier.... if that makes any sense.
bschung
Smash Apprentice
As a side note, In my region ddd's standing/small-step infinites on ddd, luigi, mario, samus, donkey kong, and bowser are banned. Don't know if it will grow as a trend or not.
btw, ddd's ftilt won't reach luigi (unlike the rest of the roster) after dthrow. But even with the ban you would certainly still have to worry about wall infinites.
btw, ddd's ftilt won't reach luigi (unlike the rest of the roster) after dthrow. But even with the ban you would certainly still have to worry about wall infinites.
Vayseth
Smash Master
Really? I didn't know the east coast banned that.
bschung
Smash Apprentice
I didn't actually mean the whole of the east coast, I have no idea about FL or MD and VA or anything like that. but pretty much all of New Jersey seems to ban it lately. And i noticed that it is banned in the new Bronx NY weekly, and in a Philadelphia biweekly. I haven't looked into how widespread the ban is overall.
Vayseth
Smash Master
I always thought it was a good idea, even for a Dedede player. But, it's not like it makes those match ups any better. Dedede still gets a free down smash out of down throw on Bowser, for example.
Buuman
Smash Ace
I feel that banning the infinite isn't a big deal. Most D3s won't complain about it. It is cheap lets face it. Although in D3 dittos, when you CG the opposing D3 to the edge, an infinite can be done. Weird thing is on occasion if you pummel them after the initial grab, sometimes it pops the opponent out of the grab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUmbuXZ7Jk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUmbuXZ7Jk
Vayseth
Smash Master
It's not weird. What's happening is when you pummel by the edge, sometimes it makes you slide which pushes you off the edge and breaks the grab.
TheWaft
Smash Journeyman
there is not a set number of grabs you can do simoltaniosly on luigi. If he infinite grabber does it exactly right (which is pretty hard to do
), then you can get the luigi to 999%. You can't escape it. no question about it.
), then you can get the luigi to 999%. You can't escape it. no question about it.
Buuman
Smash Ace
The" sometimes" is the weird inconsistency part. What triggers you to slide when you pummel..? I have yet to find out. "Sometimes" it doesn't break the grab...sometimes it does
Vayseth
Smash Master
When you dash grab as opposed to shield cancel grab you will slide while you pummel, which causes the break out.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
im actually working on getting the infinites banned in FL.
i think their dumb.
i think their dumb.
Advent Lee
Smash Ace
Vayseth
Smash Master
I've brought this up to smash back room memebers and not a single one of them it seems is n favor of banning it. Go ahead and make a thread in smash tactical discussion and link it here. If we stir up the issue enough, we should get it banned.
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