The Future of Competitive Play

[Eyada]

^^Also, the amount that the l-cancel took off wasn't arbitrariy--it was 1/2 the lag.


In bbrawl,
"It's universal. It makes EVERYONE'S aerials better. Though the extent of it varies. Not every character gets 50% lag reduction for obvious reasons. Some may have more then a 50% cut, others may have less."

I think you meant Brawl+. BBrawl does not have l-canceling of any variety, just like regular Brawl.

While it might be easy to lump them together as "the hacked versions of Brawl", BBrawl and Brawl+ actually have little in common despite their similar origin. BBrawl stays true to regular Brawl as much as possible; in fact, aside from a few blatantly obvious changes to certain characters, casual players who played Balanced Brawl probably wouldn't even be able to distinguish it from regular Brawl. This isn't to say that the changes aren't noticeable or significant, because they are, but only competitive players have the knowledge necessary to really notice and appreciate just how much of a difference all of the small, subtle changes make.

Brawl+, on the other hand, changes quite a lot, and the differences are readily apparent.

Which one you enjoy playing (if any) falls to preference, obviously, but people should be aware that there is a great deal of difference between the two. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, I merely wanted to point it out just in case anyone had any misconceptions.

 

[metaXzero]

The only version of Brawl that has a form of L-cancel is that Brawl 64 project using S-canceling (canceling landing lag with a shield pull-up). B+ just reduces the default landing lag while BBrawl just doesn't do anything with landing lag (to my knowledge).

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Disclaimer: I'm going to take the risk of sounding like an idiot and give my arbitrary opinion about something I don't really know about. I haven't played Brawl+ and I probably never will (Might try it, but I highly doubt I'll ever install it or play it frequently). If you no longer care about my opinion, stop reading here.

I dislike the very idea of Brawl+.

First off, this stems from my love of Brawl as a game in general. While it decidedly has it's problems, I think it was an improvement over Melee in a number of ways. The cast has more diversity, and I personally like the buffering system (it's never given me a problem). I like Brawl's speed. The idea that someone is declaring that it needs to be fixed rubs me the wrong way. This is really more of a personal issue, but I'm just kind of rambling to figure out why I don't like Brawl+.

I don't like extensive combos in my fighting games (Yeah yeah, DDD vs. DK, I know. Don't like that either). This is why I like smash in general. MVC2 is more about landing your launcher and then ARIEL RAAAAVE until dead (or play Cable and spam). I think that the perfect fighting game would have less to do with technical skill and more to do with stuff like spacing, zoning, MINDGAMEZ, yomi and such.

I feel like Brawl+ is an attempt to make Brawl into another game. Part Melee, part something else, I dunno.

I don't like the idea of hacking my Wii.

I don't like the way some Brawl+ players act better than vBrawl players, or try to shove it down peoples throats.

I hate that it's called Brawl+

These are the reasons that I haven't yet tried Brawl+ or given it a chance.

I hate tripping though, so GJ with that.

There's no real substance to this post, just kinda ranting to figure out why I dislike it much for myself, I guess. Also...

If you're into competitive Brawl, 7:10 you've heard about it. That weeds out the "less experienced" casuals and allows for hacked Brawl to evolve quicker and more effeciently.

I don't think that less experienced players playing Brawl has any effect whatsoever on the good players evolving stuff. Less players = less evolution.

 

[MK26]

@Silver...well, nothing you said applies to Balanced Brawl...give that one a try

There's no reason to not try out at least ONE of the hack projects, especially with the advent of the homebrew-free hack. Unless, of course, you're one of those people that say that if it isn't blessed by the devs, it shouldn't be touched. In that case, it's like trying to convince an atheist that God exists (or vice versa...)

 

[metaXzero]

MysteriousSilver. Just replying to some points.

You don't need to install the Homebrew Channel to play B+ anymore. Any Wii can run the codes now as long as you have an SD card to put them on. Same for BBrawl.

Both sides are guilty of having people who act like one is superior or the other group is weak. It just happens.

It needed it a name. Couldn't just be called "Brawl with hacks" lol

 

[Kewkky]

Sadly, there are people who prefer the Brawl modifications, people who don't prefer the Brawl mods, and people who don't care about either. Me, I'm on a secret, 4th choice: I prefer Brawl because I'm already good at it and everyone I know plays it, as well as not having an SD-Reader to use on my PC.

Yeah, sure, buy one at RadioShack or something. Well, truth be told, I'd rather buy a Baconator than an SD Reader. [/lazy johns]

 

[TL?]

I was like a lot of you guys before I tried brawl+. To me it seemed like a melee 2.0 projects and the name brawl+ seems a little arrogant. But, I gave it a try just because I don't like to bash something I've never played, and I was nicely suprised. I really liked the comboing, the balance, the teching, removal of autosweetspotting up-b, and most of all the removal of infinites/inescapable chaingrabs/exploits.

It's really hard to seriously argue that brawl is all about mindgames and spacing. It seems like that in theory but that gets overshadowed by chaingrabs/grabreleases/planking/camping/severe imbalance. How can a game that allows down throw to downthrow x6 be about mindgames when the opponent can do absolutely nothing to break that? I know some of you are also scared of having to learn ultra technical complex combos and techs equivilent to something in MvC2 or Melee. This isn't the case, if you can play Brawl well, then you can play Brawl+ well. If you know your character then the combos are for the most part obvious. The only real difference in play style is that you will need to learn to tech to break combos(shield button when about to fall into the ground from an attack).

I'm not trying to convert anyone here. All I'm saying is, if you're going to bash it you need to play it first.

 

[Team Giza]

everyone I know plays it

This is usually a very big deal for me. I will play games I otherwise have a bit of a dislike for just because of this. However, this is the reason I ended up giving up Brawl. Everyone around me stopped playing it.

 

[metaXzero]

@Kewkky

Even ignoring Brawl hacks, SD cards are pretty cheap and save alot on Wii memory. Unless you don't use your Wii much for anything besides Brawl, they are worth having.

eh...

 

[BSP]

I was like a lot of you guys before I tried brawl+. To me it seemed like a melee 2.0 projects and the name brawl+ seems a little arrogant. But, I gave it a try just because I don't like to bash something I've never played, and I was nicely suprised. I really liked the comboing, the balance, the teching, removal of autosweetspotting up-b, and most of all the removal of infinites/inescapable chaingrabs/exploits.

It's really hard to seriously argue that brawl is all about mindgames and spacing. It seems like that in theory but that gets overshadowed by chaingrabs/grabreleases/planking/camping/severe imbalance. How can a game that allows down throw to downthrow x6 be about mindgames when the opponent can do absolutely nothing to break that? I know some of you are also scared of having to learn ultra technical complex combos and techs equivilent to something in MvC2 or Melee. This isn't the case, if you can play Brawl well, then you can play Brawl+ well. If you know your character then the combos are for the most part obvious. The only real difference in play style is that you will need to learn to tech to break combos(shield button when about to fall into the ground from an attack).

I'm not trying to convert anyone here. All I'm saying is, if you're going to bash it you need to play it first.

I'm with this guy, u shouldn't knock it till you try it. I havent tried B+ either, but i was pretty bad at melee so i dont really want to head back to melee-ish physics, which is why i prefer bbrawl. I'm not saying it's a bad mod though.

 

[Kewkky]

@Kewkky

Even ignoring Brawl hacks, SD cards are pretty cheap and save alot on Wii memory. Unless you don't use your Wii much for anything besides Brawl, they are worth having.

eh...

I got an SD card, and yep, pretty much use(d)* the Wii only for Brawl.


*- It died a while ago, haven't sent it in for repairs, even though I've done the proper paperwork and stuff needed two months ago. Can't really use any hacks with no Wii anyways, so I'm group #4.

 

[CRASHiC]

How can a game that allows down throw to downthrow x6 be about mindgames when the opponent can do absolutely nothing to break that?

Its called punishment.

The only real difference in play style is that you will need to learn to tech to break combos(shield button when about to fall into the ground from an attack).

You have to do this anyway. A lot of characters in Brawl could do crazy combos if we couldn't tech, namely Falco.

planking/camping/

Camping and planking happen in Melee.
Planking is named after plank
Plank played Melee
plank planked in melee
planking is named after plank planking plankers in melee
Camping happens in every fighting game at mid level play. In 2d fighters, we call it turtleing.
I have camped people with Charizard in Brawl+ and will continue to do so. Brawl+ in no way gets rid of camping. You can't unless you give everyone freeze when their opponent is approaching. yomi favors defense.

 

[REL38]

Stuff about Brawl +

I don't think that less experienced players playing Brawl has any effect whatsoever on the good players evolving stuff. Less players = less evolution.

Hacked Brawl was made to make Brawl more "balanced" and they used aspects from Melee to help guide the project.

If you weren't into the competitive scene for Melee, then there's less chance you'll like it.
That isn't to say Melee pros love Brawl +
Some just don't like it.

Personally, I like the concept and aspects implemented into the project, but to each his own, right?


Most of the hacked Brawl community focus on advancing the game. There's a higher concentration of it.

Competitive Brawl has less people actually focusing on the metagame. Many others focus souly on money/fun.

There are only so many actually looking for advances in Brawl wherelse the rest only reap the benefits.

More people look to evolve hacked Brawl. Percentage wise, more people focus on that, but their numbers make it seem like less.

What I'm trying to get across is that hacked Brawl will continue to evolve until the next possible Smash. Even then, they'd probably continue/restart the project on the new Smash if it isn't up to par with expectations.

It'll still evolve at a decent rate and won't die.
And that's a fact :D

 

[MysteriousSilver]

There's still no reason that inexperienced players playing it would hold the metagame down, thas all I'm saying there.

 

[Fox Hater]

I prefer Brawl because I'm already good at it and everyone I know plays it

heard u suck playing it

anyway i prefer any of the hacks its just better than the original and balanced.

But i think that bbrawl has more chance in to appealing both competitive scene and casual scene cause it doesnt change brawl and it gives the necessary tools for a pro to beat a scrub/spammer

also it add more variety of chars

 

[MK26]

crashic, it never was a goal of brawl+ to eradicate camping...just to fix brawl's gross imbalance in favour of defense

 

[CRASHiC]

Defense is always favored. Its the nature of fighting games. Its why they put in negative penalties for those who play to defensively in other fighting games.

 

[metaXzero]

Defense is always favored. Its the nature of fighting games. Its why they put in negative penalties for those who play to defensively in other fighting games.

crashic, it never was a goal of brawl+ to eradicate camping...just to fix brawl's gross imbalance in favour of defense

He didn't say we were shooting for an offense>defense game. Just one where either side is on as close to equal footing as possible. Defense will more then likely still be favored, but it won't be a "do or die" level of favoring.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know some of you are also scared of having to learn ultra technical complex combos and techs equivilent to something in MvC2 or Melee.

Multiple characters had infinites in MvC2. The balance of the game was set to, play the top 4 or 6 characters or a counter to them or lose.

Strider teams are fun though. You guarding? Cool you just lost 50% of your health or more in chip damage.

 

['V']

Multiple characters had infinites in MvC2. The balance of the game was set to, play the top 4 or 6 characters or a counter to them or lose.

Strider teams are fun though. You guarding? Cool you just lost 50% of your health or more in chip damage.

Well... That isn't very balanced at all now is it?

 

[CRASHiC]

He didn't say we were shooting for an offense>defense game. Just one where either side is on as close to equal footing as possible. Defense will more then likely still be favored, but it won't be a "do or die" level of favoring.

I suppose this is why DMG hasn't won a national. Because of how defensive Brawl is, and why Mew2King has been winning.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/files/bgemmill/Images/seriously.jpg

I don't see anything wrong with vBrawl OTHER THAN CHARACTER BALANCE. I put that in caps in case someone wanted to skip this thinking I'm an idiot. It's not clear to me that Brawl+ will balance out the character roster because it's simply Melee 2. At least that's how I see it. No facts here, just opinions that I alone think of as facts.

Here's my overal two cents. Brawl is fine, Balanced Brawl is what I really want out of Brawl once I'm done with it, and Brawl+ is at the bottom of my gaming wish list. (I never finish those types of list though, so yeah, I'm just not going to play it. Period)

 

[Flayl]

But balanced brawl will never be balanced, so...

 

[MK26]

I suppose this is why DMG hasn't won a national. Because of how defensive Brawl is, and why Mew2King has been winning.

So you're denying that Brawl heavily favours the defensive aspect of play?

 

[CRASHiC]

So you're denying that Brawl heavily favours the defensive aspect of play?

I'm saying if we look at top level play, this proves not to be true more than it does in any other fighting game. Camping plagues mid level and high level, but at the top level, we don't see it. I can show you the same thing using Evo matches and Melee matches of high level play resulting in camping.

 

[Prawn]

I'm saying if we look at top level play, this proves not to be true more than it does in any other fighting game. Camping plagues mid level and high level, but at the top level, we don't see it. I can show you the same thing using Evo matches and Melee matches of high level play resulting in camping.

Fox on Corneria FTW

 

[WheelOfFish]

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/files/bgemmill/Images/seriously.jpg

I don't see anything wrong with vBrawl OTHER THAN CHARACTER BALANCE. I put that in caps in case someone wanted to skip this thinking I'm an idiot. It's not clear to me that Brawl+ will balance out the character roster because it's simply Melee 2. At least that's how I see it. No facts here, just opinions that I alone think of as facts.

Here's my overal two cents. Brawl is fine, Balanced Brawl is what I really want out of Brawl once I'm done with it, and Brawl+ is at the bottom of my gaming wish list. (I never finish those types of list though, so yeah, I'm just not going to play it. Period)

Once again, it's clear that you have never played Brawl+ or taken the time to read up on it. Brawl+ cares about the entire cast, not just the select few that were good in Melee.

You know, it's fine that you like how Brawl plays. It's not fine that you think you have a right to an opinion about a game you've shot down before trying. If you don't want to try it, that's great. Your choice. In this case, however, you shouldn't have an opinion on it.

Also, posting a stupid picture before every one of your posts doesn't warrant any respect.

 

[metaXzero]

I suppose this is why DMG hasn't won a national. Because of how defensive Brawl is, and why Mew2King has been winning.

Now WHERE did I say the better player can't win in vBrawl?

And last I checked, DMG plays Wario and M2K been playing more and more defensive with MK. Am I wrong?

Not going to be able to respond for a few hours.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well... That isn't very balanced at all now is it?

That was why I quit going serious competitive with MvC2.

The balance was much much worse than Smash.

 

[Cold Fusion]

crashic, it never was a goal of brawl+ to eradicate camping...just to fix brawl's gross imbalance in favour of defense

People constantly say that Brawl+ does not have camping.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Am I trying to be respected? I don't know...nor do I care about anyone on the boards (except The Bakery crew, and some others, not the point) I think I remember watching those nearly 10-20 matches of Brawl+ that I talked about yesterday.

It's part of my character when browsing the internet. It's fine that you think it's stupid. It's not fine that you don't believe in opinions from someone even when they haven't "tried it".

You know, anyone here (even the scrubs) knows that Superman 64 is a horrible game, why the **** do I need to try it anyway? And before you say what does SM64 have to do with Brawl+, (-_-), it's obvious I'm using an example, which is another factor of my character.

Other than that, I'm proud of the rest of your post. Would Brawl+ even exist if vBrawl was Melee 2.0? This is a rhetorical question, God forbid you if it's answered anyway...

Edit: I'm not making another post right now. I'm just saying I don't HAVE to try it, to judge it. End of story.

 

[CRASHiC]

Now WHERE did I say the better player can't win in vBrawl?

And last I checked, DMG plays Wario and M2K been playing more and more defensive with MK. Am I wrong?

Not going to be able to respond for a few hours.

Mew2King is by far the least defensive of all the MKs.
DMG has never won a major tournament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
Enjoy
And while you are at it, go watch The Revival of Melee Mango vs. Mew2King finals. Lots of lazer camping in there.

 

[Cirno]

CRASHiC and Red Ryu need to stop posting so sexily.

I wouldn't want to report them for appropriate content.

;D

 

[Eyada]

But balanced brawl will never be balanced, so...

What makes you think that?

 

[gm jack]

What makes you think that?

In order to "balance" DDD, they removed his chaingrab so DK and Bowser were no longer non-viable. DDD got so heavily nerfed by the removal of his best punishing tool that he is essentially non viable.

 

[REL38]

Am I trying to be respected? I don't know...nor do I care about anyone on the boards (except The Bakery crew, and some others, not the point) I think I remember watching those nearly 10-20 matches of Brawl+ that I talked about yesterday.

It's part of my character when browsing the internet. It's fine that you think it's stupid. It's not fine that you don't believe in opinions from someone even when they haven't "tried it".

You know, anyone here (even the scrubs) knows that Superman 64 is a horrible game, why the **** do I need to try it anyway? And before you say what does SM64 have to do with Brawl+, (-_-), it's obvious I'm using an example, which is another factor of my character.

Other than that, I'm proud of the rest of your post. Would Brawl+ even exist if vBrawl was Melee 2.0? This is a rhetorical question, God forbid you if it's answered anyway...

Not a very good example to say the least.

There are 3 different areas of competitive Smash:

Melee

Brawl

Brawl +


All three are good games. All three have been well recieved by their respective audience (Brawl + has the audience of competitive smashers).


Superman 64 has been critically acclaimed as the worst game of all time.
That's a fact.


Comparing the most terrible game in history to Brawl+

Terrible comparison :/

 

[metaXzero]

Mew2King is by far the least defensive of all the MKs.
DMG has never won a major tournament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
Enjoy
And while you are at it, go watch The Revival of Melee Mango vs. Mew2King finals. Lots of lazer camping in there.

I have a few minutes...

He certainly doesn't go aggro like he used to months ago. And if I remember well, DMG is a high level player who does well in tourneys. Or did you bring him up for no reason?

Now WHERE did I say Melee was an offense only game with no camping? Actually, where are you getting this thought that I think Melee and Brawl+ have no camping?

Though you could've used a better vid then that.

 

[CRASHiC]

I have a few minutes...

He certainly doesn't go aggro like he used to months ago. And if I remember well, DMG is a high level player who does well in tourneys. Or did you bring him up for no reason?

Now WHERE did I say Melee was an offense only game with no camping? Actually, where are you getting this thought that I think Melee and Brawl+ have no camping?

Though you could've used a better vid then that.

I also used Evo as an example, which included many games that are more balanced and with actual design elements to avoid these elements. I main A.B.A. in Guilty Gear. We turtle to win, always have, and always will. We will continue to do so and only get punished for mistakes.
I used DMG as an example because if Brawl was so heavily inclined to such behavoir, DMG would be taking tournaments by storm. I think we can all agree that DMG is the best defensive player out there period.
If we look at those who have won national tournaments in Brawl (Ally, ADHD, Mew2King) we see camping very seldom compared to what is claimed, and see camping no more than what we see at Evo or Revival of Melee.
Even in more modern games such as Dissida we see camping being a problem that the community is addressing.

 

[00000]

I have a few minutes...

He certainly doesn't go aggro like he used to months ago.

M2K vs. Dojo.

 

[LoganW]

please don't bring melee into brawl affairs, unless your talking about the true future of brawl