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That too. I remember Ike had that problem real bad in smash 4 and they fixed it relatively quickly.marth could use buffs but im more looking for fixes in his hitboxes so that they match the animation
What I was trying to say is that I doubt that they simply 'forgot' to change Marcina's up-air to the way the same animation works for Roy/Chrom and even Corrin (though Corrin has worse start-up at frame 7). The fact that they still haven't changed it makes me think it was intentional, not accidental. Given that Marcina only really received nerfs from Smash 4 to Ultimate (excluding universal buffs to jumpsquat, landing lag, ground/air speed etc.), I wouldn't even be surprised if they didn't want Marcina to have that. That might sound bitter, but being able to angle Shield Breaker really doesn't make up for everything they took away in this game.I don't think it's intentional considering the fact that Roy's and Chrom's up air doesn't have this problem and works perfectly
But sourspots usually don't combo super well, and even if they do, it's even rarer that they'll combo into a killing tipper. You always have to tech chase them. there are very few setups into anything, other than falling nair. The thing that makes lucina better, is her moves have enough knockback at high percents, they are off stage. She may not be able to combo, but she'll put you in a hard disadvantage offstage or kill you at midstage eventually. At least I feel, hahaha.A late reply from being lazy through thanksgiving holiday
words.....
All of Marth's falling sour aerials combo very well, it's been like that in every game and this is no exception. Rising aerials while drifting toward them don't combo into anything, but landing with them always has and always will combo. Landing Up Air into Up Tilt or Up Air, possibly dancing blade up 4 if low enough %. Falling Fair and Bair both combo into grab, dancing blade, another aerial or tilt. Nair 1 and Down Air are both literally combo into almost anything you want to do. Sour Nair 2 into Tipper FTilt is a common bread and butter and is something only Marth can do. All falling aerials can also true combo into tipper fsmash as well at different %s which is extremely important being one of the biggest things he has over Lucina.Most of the falling aerials i mentioned Lucina can do as well, mind you. It's just Marth's sour spots let him do this things for longer % ranges. As far as kill confirms are concerned you have things like Landing sour up air and landing sour dair into tipper up air as a very powerful confirm that Lucina can't do. Marth's combo game just heavily revolved around the fact that you have to land with your aerials, which is how the characters wants to be played in the first place with how unsafe rising aerials are on both characters.But sourspots usually don't combo super well, and even if they do, it's even rarer that they'll combo into a killing tipper. You always have to tech chase them. there are very few setups into anything, other than falling nair. The thing that makes lucina better, is her moves have enough knockback at high percents, they are off stage. She may not be able to combo, but she'll put you in a hard disadvantage offstage or kill you at midstage eventually. At least I feel, hahaha.
Precise guessing in what way? Both Marth and Lucina have ways (down smash, Dancing blade) to cover multiple options, like most characters mind you, that kill. As well as Marth having the ability to kill EXTREMELY early if the player decides to cover one specific option (which again, they don't have to). The thought process that "it requires precise guessing" can be applies to any aspect of Neutral, advantage and disadvantage for any character if you look at it that vaguely.Ill be honest, all what you say about tech chases sounds good and all, but in the end it still requires precise guessing and cannot be relied to secure a kill.
Not really? Almost every top-high tier character struggles to kill a LOT if they don't secure their win condition or a specific safe set up into a reliable kill move. Marth isn't an outlier.The problem with marth for example, is that in the end, other characters simply kill with just xonnecting their big killers, while marth depends on tippers and gimps. Otherwise he risks losing the stock even when having % advantage.
Difficulty =/= viabilityImo the character is flawed, as his killing moves are way harder to execute compared to most of the cast.
Eerr, Lucina gets those kills way easier. Marth has the ability to kill early, but with micro spacing being more difficult in this game, and most of his tippers lack actually killing much on any of his aerials. Looking at the chart SirLink posted, if marth sourspots, he will kill way later than lucina. This accentuated with marth aerials having basically the same shield advantage than Marth (tips are mostly only safer if they are fresh), and her amazing edgeguards. Back air and fair will more often just cause you to be able to not recover. Having dancing blade kill at a reasonable 120, fsmash kill at an amazing 100, and upsmash killing at reasonable 114, she has great options for her down tilt tech chases, which are way more reliable than marth's,Precise guessing in what way? Both Marth and Lucina have ways (down smash, Dancing blade) to cover multiple options, like most characters mind you, that kill. As well as Marth having the ability to kill EXTREMELY early if the player decides to cover one specific option (which again, they don't have to). The thought process that "it requires precise guessing" can be applies to any aspect of Neutral, advantage and disadvantage for any character if you look at it that vaguely.
But thats the thing. Marth has to tip even after that win condition. So many times I have read an opponent role, and the weird tipper on fsmash doesn't wanna work with me, and i fail to kill. because of slight mispacing. Most characters don't worry about it, usually if they time it right, they'll get the hit they want. Marth has to time it and space it. and he doesn't even get that rewarded much off of those except for fsmash. Top tiers will be able to get a raw hit in neutral at a kill percent, and either hit and then set up to kill. Marth has no confirms except 1st hit nair, and he has to get a read and precise spacing to kill. I think thats what they meant by precise guessing.Not really? Almost every top-high tier character struggles to kill a LOT if they don't secure their win condition or a specific safe set up into a reliable kill move. Marth isn't an outlier.
While I somewhat agree with this, Characters that are harder to play, simply should be more rewarded than their easier counterparts. Lucina is better for being a lower risk character.Difficulty =/= viability
Following this logic, Peach shouldn't be that good either because her high damage output is also considerably more difficult to do comparatively
This part of the message confuses me, the only aerial that doesn't really kill is fair. Tipper Nair on stage kills very early, sour fair and bair still kill offstage as an edgeguarding tool just as well as Lucina when it matters. It should be noted that the chart posted is MIDSTAGE, in neutral, where both characters have, to be honest, very high numbers. They both struggle a lot to secure kills in a state like that which skews how you could view it. I'm not really sure where the idea that Lucina would get kills off of tech chases easier comes from? When you're in a tech chase situation to kill and you get a sour instead of a tipper, it's not the game's fault, it's not Lucina being able to kill easier, it's the players fault for mis spacing in a situation where the opponent is force into extremely specific positions. Also, since in a LOT of situations you'll both have it fresh and with rage, the gap between sour up smash and Luci up smash are basically nothing. Even with rage and freshness the idea that it only kills 10% later is practically nothing in a real match and doesn't effect anything.Eerr, Lucina gets those kills way easier. Marth has the ability to kill early, but with micro spacing being more difficult in this game, and most of his tippers lack actually killing much on any of his aerials. Looking at the chart SirLink posted, if marth sourspots, he will kill way later than lucina. This accentuated with marth aerials having basically the same shield advantage than Marth (tips are mostly only safer if they are fresh), and her amazing edgeguards. Back air and fair will more often just cause you to be able to not recover. Having dancing blade kill at a reasonable 120, fsmash kill at an amazing 100, and upsmash killing at reasonable 114, she has great options for her down tilt tech chases, which are way more reliable than marth's.
This goes back to what I just said, their (both Marth and Lucina) messing up spacing and punishments on fixed positions is nothing except the player's own fault. Tunnel visioning on the idea that you need to kill extremely early as Marth to succeed with him also isn't going to do you any good. I'm also not really sure what you mean by not rewarded that much except fsmash? Ftilt, Bair, Nair, dancing blade. If you're in a position to space a move to kill and know where they'll be, it feels odd to say he can't get the reward off it. Marth has confirms off of Sour up and dair as well. This is ignoring how brain dead easy it actually is to kill off of nair 1. he has confirms off of Rising nair (both hits) into fsmash at mid %s. The list goes on.But thats the thing. Marth has to tip even after that win condition. So many times I have read an opponent role, and the weird tipper on fsmash doesn't wanna work with me, and i fail to kill. because of slight mispacing. Most characters don't worry about it, usually if they time it right, they'll get the hit they want. Marth has to time it and space it. and he doesn't even get that rewarded much off of those except for fsmash. Top tiers will be able to get a raw hit in neutral at a kill percent, and either hit and then set up to kill. Marth has no confirms except 1st hit nair, and he has to get a read and precise spacing to kill. I think thats what they meant by precise guessing.
Better said that spacing is too much effort for how inconsistent the reward is. Like if you compare Roy to Marth, Roy's sweet spots are giant, it's not hard to get them consistently on almost any character with proper spacing. And while Roy is out here killing people at 60%, Marth is usually getting his kills at 160+ because his tippers feel like worse RNG than hero getting a crit. It's not on every move but on some of key moves the tip is so inconsistent that it can be thrown off by hurtbox sizes and character animations. That's why you saw Leo drop the character again. Even the best player in the world who is known for his great spacing can't make Marth consistent enough.Errr, i understand what you are saying.
Yes it is the players fault for misspacing it, but that doesn't counter Marth definitely has to work way harder to get his kills/kill confirms.
I don't, we can just agree to disagree on that point. IMO there's nothing difficult with landing his neutral tools that you're constantly using to set up tech chases and significantly more reward off it than Lucina ever would.Errr, i understand what you are saying.
Yes it is the players fault for misspacing it, but that doesn't counter Marth definitely has to work way harder to get his kills/kill confirms.
And lucina has higher base knockback on all of her moves than marths sour. Edgeguarding situations favor lucina because of her higher base knockback, along with Marths low difference of percent killing earlier.
Sour upair and dair arent nuetral moves. And dair and i feel stop setting up into kills after the small window the do kill.
Character's living up to absurd %s at high-top level play isn't a Marth problem, it's a Marcina problem. It happens so much in matches with Proto and Etjusi. Mr E as well. Leo when he plays the character occasionally. On the topic of Leo, he's been on and off about Marth since Smash 4, where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothingBetter said that spacing is too much effort for how inconsistent the reward is. Like if you compare Roy to Marth, Roy's sweet spots are giant, it's not hard to get them consistently on almost any character with proper spacing. And while Roy is out here killing people at 60%, Marth is usually getting his kills at 160+ because his tippers feel like worse RNG than hero getting a crit. It's not on every move but on some of key moves the tip is so inconsistent that it can be thrown off by hurtbox sizes and character animations. That's why you saw Leo drop the character again. Even the best player in the world who is known for his great spacing can't make Marth consistent enough.
It happens far less often with Lucina though. Most of Luci's attacks will be able kill middle weights near the ledge at around 150; Not desirable, but whenever people survive past that it's because the Lucina player either doesn't have stage control, or can't create an opening to land the moves. Getting outplayed is very different than hitting the move in advantage and not killing with the move. Also wasn't Mr. E historically bad at cleaning his plate in general? I remember him getting blown up by a belmont player in tournament because he didn't know how to edge guard Richter lol. (Never heard of the other two btw, I only know of Mr.E)Character's living up to absurd %s at high-top level play isn't a Marth problem, it's a Marcina problem. It happens so much in matches with Proto and Etjusi. Mr E as well. Leo when he plays the character occasionally. On the topic of Leo, he's been on and off about Marth since Smash 4, where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothing
There's no real difference between it happening with Lucina and Marth, the stigma of the character not being able is blown up to a ridiculous degree for Marth specifically because people both don't pay attention to averages that the best Lucina players in the world kill at and there being FAR less Marth examples to go off of at that level. People see a bandwagon thought process of Marth not being able to kill and saying Lucina doesn't and hop aboard. You're right about Mr E, that's why i hesitantly included him with a maybe. Proto and Etjusi are japanese Lucinas and Proto is currently PGR'd 19th in the world and is undeniably the best Lucina at the moment (you could make the argument that he always was the best Lucina even when Leo played her and that Proto would be a top 10 in PGR but due to illness and being in japan wasn't able to go to enough tournaments to make a big enough impact to make top 10 this season)It happens far less often with Lucina though. Most of Luci's attacks will be able kill middle weights near the ledge at around 150; Not desirable, but whenever people survive past that it's because the Lucina player either doesn't have stage control, or can't create an opening to land the moves. Getting outplayed is very different than hitting the move in advantage and not killing with the move. Also wasn't Mr. E historically bad at cleaning his plate in general? I remember him getting blown up by a belmont player in tournament because he didn't know how to edge guard Richter lol. (Never heard of the other two btw, I only know of Mr.E)
I brought up Smash 4 because you brought up Leo dropping the character. As I said, he's been on and off Marth since late Smash 4 (mid-late 2017 to the end of 2018 where he was playing Lucina more towards the end of the year before Ult came out).I don't know why you brought up smash 4 since that's really far from the point
Yes, I know all of this. That's why I said it. I didn't mean to imply Lucina couldn't Jab 1, I just thought it was obvious It was the tipper reward off it. To be honest, I didn't really agree with Lucina being "irrelevant" in smash 4 just like how most of what people say about Marth in this game isn't really true or overblown to absurd degrees.You are using this example a bit disingenuously though. Lucina wasn't considered irrelevant because she was far worse than Marth, Lucina was considered irrelevant because Marth's tippers were consistent enough to a point where a well practiced player could land them when it mattered. It was a case of 2 characters playing almost identically, and both players were rewarded consistently, but Marth's rewards were way better; Ergo a situation where 2 are good and one is just better. In smash ultimate you have the same dynamic of 2 characters playing almost identically but when all is said and done only one of them is rewarded consistently and the other is more often than not unrewarded; Ergo a situation where one is good and the other one is not worth.
where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothing
This exactly is just where I disagree. There's nothing to actually show and support that he's outclassed outside of the fact that people just play Lucina. Infact, if you look up various high-top level Marth gameplay from vaious people who have used him, most people's arguements (notably, his tippers being "random") start to fall apart. People that know how to play the character at that level have near perfect sour-tipper ratios.it's undeniable that Marth has issues when he's so outclassed by his echo
I'm curious if you could show examples of this. I have been trying to find good marth play by anyone besides mkleo recently and it's hard.people who have used him, most people's arguements (notably, his tippers being "random") start to fall apart. People that know how to play the character at that level have near perfect sour-tipper
1, Yes there is. Hitting an f tilt at 150% off of a ledge trap will kill most mid weights with Lucina and will not kill with Marth unless you tipper.What you said
to be fair, that's actually on the devs end for not giving lucina, roy, and chrom differing movesets. i actually find it pretty ridiculous how they're all basically good characters and have more benefits using their style of gameplay than the originalit's undeniable that Marth has issues when he's so outclassed by his echo that even loyalists (ex loyalist in my case) avoid him for Lucina.