Data The Great Fairy Fountain II : Zelda Data & Research Repository

[Meru.]

Zelda's Frame Data just makes me want to cry. http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Her jab hits on frame 11. I didn't know this, I thought it was frame 6 because ****ING 11!!! Frame 11 jabs are supposed to have somewhat of a reward, hers just tickles the opponent.

Her lightning kicks are even worse than I though. Autocancel on frame 50!! That means you will have to suffer lag for 37 entire frames. What the hell why is that needed? On the other hand, it seems the Fair and Bair sweetspot is not timing dependent. It's only dependent on your spacing. (Disconfirmed, it's timing dependent. The sweetspot only connects on the first frame). Dair is timing dependent too: you have to hit it on the first frame in order to get the sweetspot.

Uair is just... hits on frame 14, autocancel on frame 56.

Grab is still slow -_-. Frame 10 instead of the average 6.

BUT somewhat good news: I didn't know Farore's was that fast. It's frame 7. That's pretty awesome.

 

[Furret]

Zelda's Frame Data just makes me want to cry. http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Her jab hits on frame 11. I didn't know this, I thought it was frame 6 because ****ING 11!!! Frame 11 jabs are supposed to have somewhat of a reward, hers just tickles the opponent.

I've cried about how slow her jab is for a long time for how little advantage she gets out of it. Zelda is what Zelda is

 

[BJN39]

I've gotten used to her having the slowest Jab startup.

It's been exactly like that since Melee anyways.

 

[UkeNicky]

Zelda is so sad. . It's like you think she'll be decent this time around but nupe #dreamkiller
Nontheless, you're doing a super job on this whole guide and research BJN, hopefully you give other Zelda players hope

 

[BJN39]

Great news! My (random) idea for a workaround for the un-fixable small sized aerial words worked!

Expect me to start re-adding specials to the thread! :D

 

[Princess Toady]

Thanks for the thread, it is really helpful. ^^

 

[Xys]

Thanks for helping me.

 

[Swoops]

I've cried about how slow her jab is for a long time for how little advantage she gets out of it. Zelda is what Zelda is

She gets free dash attacks and grabs all day out of jab. Plus it shield pokes and has crazy priority and very little cool down. I think if jab had better start up it would be pretty broken.

Dtilt is pretty good as a substitute if you need a quick starting attack. I personally think jab is one of her best moves :/. If you want to complain about jabs go to the Ganondorf board lol.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

She gets free dash attacks and grabs all day out of jab. Plus it shield pokes and has crazy priority and very little cool down. I think if jab had better start up it would be pretty broken.

Dtilt is pretty good as a substitute if you need a quick starting attack. I personally think jab is one of her best moves :/. If you want to complain about jabs go to the Ganondorf board lol.

At this point, I don't think anything could make Zelda broken lol

 

[Swoops]

At this point, I don't think anything could make Zelda broken lol

"Zelda is trash" aside, a move can be broken without making the character completely broken. AKA Diddy's UAir

 

[BJN39]

"Zelda is trash" aside, a move can be broken without making the character completely broken. AKA Diddy's UAir

As well as Melee Zelda's lightning kicks.

 

[BJN39]

Huzzah! I've finished re-implementing the first special: Nayru's Love! You can find it in the second post.

Edit : oop, double post... xo

 

[rabbits]

Oh god seeing Zelda classified as Turtle/Rushdown made me want to cry.

 

[Furret]

Oh god seeing Zelda classified as Turtle/Rushdown made me want to cry.

I had a giggle

 

[BJN39]

I had a giggle

Me too when Aero first mentioned it.

Yet, it's pretty correct. Even with the irony and how-is-one-both-of-those-at-the-same-time-ness.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's more of a passive-aggressive rushdown imo.

She really wants to be defensive/turtle/spacing/zoning (not keep away, primarily because she has no reliable projectile), but often times she's forced to approach people.

If you can get away with it, defensive/turtle is your primary playstyle you want to play as, but otherwise you're just going to have to play a careful and slow rushdown approach (which is a unique character archetype in itself).

EdiT:
I played a friends campy Zelda as Bowser the other day actually, because there was no time limit, even though I was 2 stocks ahead he kept camping, and it was surprisingly annoying to get around.

That wouldn't happen in a normal game though because %/Stock lead and time limits.

 

[BJN39]

I've improved, and re-added Farore's Wind!

Like Nayru's Love (And any upcoming specials or throws.) it can be found on post #2.

Up next: Phantom Slash!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's interesting to note that many of our early Farore kills come from poor DI.

 

[BJN39]

It's interesting to note that many of our early Farore kills come from poor DI.

It IS surprising to note how LOW you can DI FW2 Air version. Yew can get as low as like, a 35 degree angle.

I was quite amused by the use of frame speed modifiers to make it faster/slower. IDK why they actually made 34 frames for the startup when it's just gonna look like 20 frames.

Also, I'm quite surprised by the fact FW1 ground is actually TWO hit-boxes. Two large off-center hit-boxes whose range is larger than Nayru vs an airborne opponent. Also, why 89 and 91 degree angles? Why nawt just 90. I'll never understand some of their design choices...

 

[Rickster]

Just happened to click on this thread to see what it looks like now (and I haven't been here in a while. I also wanted some frame data lol) and WOW this thing has gotten AMAZING.

So much data in an organized fashion. And still more to come! Thanks so much BJ!

 

[JayWon]

Why is Diddy's U-air better than Zelda's U-air in every aspect? I mean, for a character like Zelda where her gimmick is focused on surgical precision in her aerial attacks, her U-air isn't even that strong compared to Diddy's U-air which comes out faster, longer lasting hitbox, wider hitbox, etc. Just in general... what is up with Zelda's toolkit compared to other top tier character's toolkit.

 

[BJN39]

Why is Diddy's U-air better than Zelda's U-air in every aspect? I mean, for a character like Zelda where her gimmick is focused on surgical precision in her aerial attacks, her U-air isn't even that strong compared to Diddy's U-air which comes out faster, longer lasting hitbox, wider hitbox, etc. Just in general... what is up with Zelda's toolkit compared to other top tier character's toolkit.

It was seriously neglected tbh. You can find many areas in moves that suggest so.

The developers must have liked her where she was and thought she was 'alright' for use, even though pretty much every Zelda (And plenty of non-Zeldas.) would attest to the fact she needs some help.

Technically speaking, Zelda's UAir KOs around 10% earlier, but she hardly gets the opportunity to use it so close to the top blastzone like Diddy does, making his look stronger. Also, her UAir of course has like, 2x the vertical range if not more.

It's just these advantageous aspects get looked over when compared to Diddy's since his is fast, and thus can be used way more. I'll tell you if Zelda's UAir had anything close to the speed of Diddy's, people would hardly even notice Diddy's in light of Zelda's crazy UAir.

 

[ZombieBran]

Yeah, fairly certain that Zelda's Uair still has more knockback than Diddy's. The 14 frame startup does not make up for it. And since Zelda can't combo into it at high percents anyway, they should have either sped it up or kept the Brawl knockback (ideally both!)

It's just these advantageous aspects get looked over when compared to Diddy's since his is fast, and thus can be used way more. I'll tell you if Zelda's UAir had anything close to the speed of Diddy's, people would hardly even notice Diddy's in light of Zelda's crazy UAir.

It would be an overpowered move on an underpowered character. Zelda would need a way to reliably combo into it at KO percents for it to be notorious like Diddy's.

 

[BJN39]

Yeah, fairly certain that Zelda's Uair still has more knockback than Diddy's. The 14 frame startup does not make up for it. And since Zelda can't combo into it at high percents anyway, they should have either sped it up or kept the Brawl knockback (ideally both!)


It would be an overpowered move on an underpowered character. Zelda would need a way to reliably combo into it at KO percents for it to be notorious like Diddy's.

If it WERE faster to hit, Dthrow > UAir for the KO could probably work.

 

[Rickster]

I thought if they DI'd straight up the Uair was guaranteed (at least if you're fast enough)? I get lots of KOs with this setup, until they learn to DI it. It makes the combo counter go up in Training, so it must be at least near guaranteed...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I thought this also ^

 

[Swoops]

DThrow > UAir is guaranteed on most characters at around the 80 - 90% range (not sure on the exact percents,) even if their DI is slightly behind you. It's just tight timing.

DThrow > DJ BAir is also a true combo at certain percents. But I have a tougher time landing this than I do Dthrow > UAir. Veeery tight timing. Also, DTilt > Nair/Bair/Fair can work at various percents

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hey guys, I fought a Zelda online last night who used Nayru's Love to get out of pressure and combos

Is it me just sucking and missing my follow ups as Fox, or does Nayru's have invincibility frames on startup? I could've sworn I hit her with a Nair but I got knocked away instead. I forgot to save the replay, unfortunately

 

[BJN39]

^ Nayru's does have some intangibility frames (Another type of invincibility) for some frames just before the hit-box comes out. So it's possible for her to use it occasionally to escape pressure or combos. It isn't a very safe idea for the Zelda to do all the time, though.

 

[DavemanCozy]

That's actually pretty cool about her B. She's been very improved too, holy cow this matchup used to be so easy in Brawl, my respect to Zelda

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Brawl Nayru's had the same amount of intangibility.

 

[Xys]

Do you guys know how much health Ness gets compared to a regular energy projectile when Din's hits him while using the energy absorption thingy?

 

[BJN39]

Idk atm, @ Xys but I can do a quick test of how much percent Ness gets from Din's for ya if that'll help. ^ ^

iirc, his healing effect is based on a damage multiplier (like reflectors) so he heals the amount of damage times some increased multiplier. I don't remember what the multiplier number is, though.

Edit : Eauxkay, finished testing.

First, ness heals more/less depending on if the sweet-spot hits his energy hit-box detection hit-box. (This hit-box is massive btw.)

So, it appears to have a healing multiplier of around x1.8. Obvi I could just check Aero's reflected multiplier data thread to know for sure, but, anyways.

The healing numbers are:

12-24% healed for the sweet-spot (varying damage per range.) and 6-12% healed for the sour-spot.

So, comparing against other absorbable projectile attacks, Din's is able to heal a massive amount oh percent if you hit with the sweet-spot, which isn't too hard if you were aiming at him at all.

Hope that helps!

 

[Xys]

It really does. I was trying to figure out if he worked like mr gameandwatch and got multiple heals (bars like Mr GAW) from that one projectile. This is why I follow you BJN39. You are so smart.

 

[BJN39]

Just thought I'd let Zeldas know I'm thinking of taking suggestions/ideas for what I could/should research and have here as far as not directly move data goes, such as the FW elevator % chart, or Dthrow followup percents and such. I'll look into researching your suggestions!

 

[Rickster]

Just thought I'd let Zeldas know I'm thinking of taking suggestions/ideas for what I could/should research and have here as far as not directly move data goes, such as the FW elevator % chart, or Dthrow followup percents and such. I'll look into researching your suggestions!

Man, I was gonna suggest those two that you just mentioned, lol.

Hmm...maybe dair % combos? It goes into utilt/usmash a mid-ish %, and uair at high %.
But...some of this stuff I mentioned is already in D3RK's guide, isn't it?

Maybe dealing with people who DI the Elevator? Ugh, this is hard, lol.

 

[BJN39]

Man, I was gonna suggest those two that you just mentioned, lol.

Hmm...maybe dair % combos? It goes into utilt/usmash a mid-ish %, and uair at high %.
But...some of this stuff I mentioned is already in D3RK's guide, isn't it?

Maybe dealing with people who DI the Elevator? Ugh, this is hard, lol.

IDK what D3RK made, but I could look into combos of the DAir and percents.

As for DIing the elevator, my short answer is perfect (Or well, get very good at it. ) your reaction speed when using FW when fishing for the elevator. Like, have a CPU or friend who can DI (Or not DI) the first hit in random directions and get your reaction speed and judgement of when to go up or abort the attempt good. If you get really good, you could theoretically just angle your FW accordingly to still KO them. Which sounds really awesome IMO. It was something I would probably mention if/when I make that spotlight on FW I was talking about recently.

 

[Rickster]

IDK what D3RK made, but I could look into combos of the DAir and percents.

As for DIing the elevator, my short answer is perfect (Or well, get very good at it. ) your reaction speed when using FW when fishing for the elevator. Like, have a CPU or friend who can DI (Or not DI) the first hit in random directions and get your reaction speed and judgement of when to go up or abort the attempt good. If you get really good, you could theoretically just angle your FW accordingly to still KO them. Which sounds really awesome IMO. It was something I would probably mention if/when I make that spotlight on FW I was talking about recently.

I think the FW section sounds like a great idea. It's really becoming an important part of our meta, knowing when to use it and when not to. Maybe we could get everyone together in a collaborative effort to learn all the cancel spots? Too many Omega stages for just a few people. I'd be willing to help with that, when I have the time.

 

[BJN39]

I think the FW section sounds like a great idea. It's really becoming an important part of our meta, knowing when to use it and when not to. Maybe we could get everyone together in a collaborative effort to learn all the cancel spots? Too many Omega stages for just a few people. I'd be willing to help with that, when I have the time.

Well, if you have the WiiU version, you can feel free to start making reference points for at least straight horizontal ledge-cancels for stages.

I'm gonna begin on the 3DS version. There aren't a whole lot of legal platform stages where FW is easily ledge cancel-able tbh, so it won't be too much of a workload imo.

If any others would like to help with the WiiU version as well, feel free to do so! All you have to do is find good visual reference points, and write 'me down and I can add them.

 

[Rickster]

Well, if you have the WiiU version, you can feel free to start making reference points for at least straight horizontal ledge-cancels for stages.

I'm gonna begin on the 3DS version. There aren't a whole lot of legal platform stages where FW is easily ledge cancel-able tbh, so it won't be too much of a workload imo.

If any others would like to help with the WiiU version as well, feel free to do so! All you have to do is find good visual reference points, and write 'me down and I can add them.

Sounds good to me! I'll just get the most important ones down first (FD, Battlefield, etc). I was thinking maybe we could get pics of the stage (or just go to training, set the cam to fixed, and take pics), and mark the spot with an X or something (or just have Zelda stand there). That way we could have a clear reference point. Also some of the Omegas are kinda undetailed, so simply describing those spots would be annoying.

Regardless, I'll start tomorrow after school. But now I have to sleep..