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3-2 ANTi to advance to Losers Finals! Could we see a curse break (and a major win from the other top Sheik)?
3-2 Dabuz to advance to Grand Finals! Curse break imminent?
You must defeat Tweek to stand a chance.Mr. R
3-1 Mr. R to win Hyrule Saga! The curse continues, but Mr. R is now tied for the closest player to break the curse.
(Female Corrin's icon has changed?!?)
I agree with you, although I do personally find Sheik to be one of the least, if not the least, fun character to watch. Bayonetta is bottom 5 for me.
I don't really like ladder combos for ZSS or Meta Knight either, personally.
so melee fox is 100x worse than Bayonetta in terms of dominance but melee fox gets a pass
Sorry, mislabeled my data; fixed.
Anyway, what was I saying?
Roughly three times worse, going by that data. Still, Melee and Melee Fox are different in many significant ways:
I’ve never understood the hate with her but the love for Fox in Melee. He honestly killed a lot of fun for me in that game to where I just played PM instead since I got more variety there.I mean, take a look at Bayo's overall placings in tournaments, and you will see an alarming trend:
As you can see, Bayonetta has over double the top 64 placements as the next best character. DOUBLE.
She dwarfs even Brawl MK, who at his absolute peak was just shy of 27%.
If she was ahead by just a slim majority, calling this mob mentality might be justified. But as it stands, hate for her by crowds and social media is deserved--they aren't just hating a playstyle or players, there's a statistical basis to their complaints.
She is obviously choking out the rest of the roster. It's gotten so bad, that ZSS is performing worse than Melee Luigi.
Wait, that doesn't seem right. Hold on.
Sorry, mislabeled my data; fixed.
Anyway, what was I saying?
those are all decent points but number 2 is mostly opinions people do think that characters like Jigglypuff and Bayonetta are fun to watch
I wish I can give this like a billion likes. Well said.
yeah that's pretty hypocritical and saying that are characters has no weaknesses is ridiculous
I know what your talking about any time I bring up the argument of fox being more dominant than Bayonetta in terms of results people immediately jump to this excuse I don't care about how fun a character is to watch I only care about facts and its a fact that fox is much more dominant than Bayonetta in terms of results
that's the thing even if Bayonetta is nerfed to the point of unusability people will just complain about the next best character
Oh, many of these points are highly subjective (some people enjoy fighting Bayonetta too). I, personally, enjoy watching Melee Puff, and I don't think Bayonetta is the least fun Smash 4 character to watch (Sheik is for me). Still, it seems pretty clear that many people dislike watching Bayonetta. I imagine that if you were to conduct a survey on which characters people dislike watching the most, Bayonetta would be near the top.
I'd argue that Sheik is still a top 4 character and could use some more nerfs (although I'm not exactly sure what to hit without turning her into a mid tier). I hope Ultimate makes Sheik less oppressive to play against, I'm a bit worried that she'll be the new Bayonetta (in a sense). Time will tell, I suppose.
ZeRo has a tendency to exaggerate, which I find a bit unfortunate. "That killed at 70" when it actually killed at something like 86%, and such.
I think it'd be really hard to turn a superheavy or Jigglypuff into a top/high tier without being oppressive in some way. I'd be fine with Jigglypuff in low-mid or mid tier, personally. Wouldn't surprise me if she's a low tier again though.
Not necessarily. I've seen games without a clear #1 where people didn't complain nearly as much as for Smash 4 (though Bayonetta's issues aren't merely her power level).
This post is incredible <3I mean, take a look at Bayo's overall placings in tournaments, and you will see an alarming trend:
As you can see, Bayonetta has over double the top 64 placements as the next best character. DOUBLE.
She dwarfs even Brawl MK, who at his absolute peak was just shy of 27%.
If she was ahead by just a slim majority, calling this mob mentality might be justified. But as it stands, hate for her by crowds and social media is deserved--they aren't just hating a playstyle or players, there's a statistical basis to their complaints.
She is obviously choking out the rest of the roster. It's gotten so bad, that ZSS is performing worse than Melee Luigi.
Wait, that doesn't seem right. Hold on.
Sorry, mislabeled my data; fixed.
Anyway, what was I saying?
what did exactly void say/do
Between games, Void turned around to hush the crowd's anti-Bayo chant. A class act, CLG was smart to pick him up.
Incredible in its vast inaccuracies, sure. I'm not sure if this is a blatant troll post by Thinkaman, where he is trying to convince people of absurdities (this is a very Thinkamany thing to do) or if he is spreading a false narrative to push his agenda (which is also a sort of Thinkamany thing to do *cough*customs*cough* though I hope he would have more veracity than this), but something was a little unsettling about those numbers so I just had a quick look on my lunch break.
The charts list per-event instances of (winning) characters used, not sets. (As stated at the top) The numbers are over a magnitude off from counting sets, not sure how anyone could confuse them.
The reason why there are fewer representatives of Bayo at high level play doing any significant results, is because you need to repeatedly read opponent's DI/SDI in order to keep combos going or ladder them to the top. It takes top level reaction time and conditioning to do, and even then you aren't always guaranteed to do this.
one thing I noticed when looking at Bayonetta players is that their aren't many of them at a lower level of play
Anybody could confuse them because you are poorly explaining what the hell you're even measuring. Character placements (ie there were X amount of Bayonetta mains that placed top 64)? Why mention (winning) characters if you're not talking about winning sets? Is the point to show character saturation? Maybe the numbers are good and the English is just poor.
This is the quality content I subscribe forI mean, take a look at Bayo's overall placings in tournaments, and you will see an alarming trend:
As you can see, Bayonetta has over double the top 64 placements as the next best character. DOUBLE.
She dwarfs even Brawl MK, who at his absolute peak was just shy of 27%.
If she was ahead by just a slim majority, calling this mob mentality might be justified. But as it stands, hate for her by crowds and social media is deserved--they aren't just hating a playstyle or players, there's a statistical basis to their complaints.
She is obviously choking out the rest of the roster. It's gotten so bad, that ZSS is performing worse than Melee Luigi.
Wait, that doesn't seem right. Hold on.
Sorry, mislabeled my data; fixed.
Anyway, what was I saying?
Actually an excellent post.I mean, take a look at Bayo's overall placings in tournaments, and you will see an alarming trend:
As you can see, Bayonetta has over double the top 64 placements as the next best character. DOUBLE.
She dwarfs even Brawl MK, who at his absolute peak was just shy of 27%.
If she was ahead by just a slim majority, calling this mob mentality might be justified. But as it stands, hate for her by crowds and social media is deserved--they aren't just hating a playstyle or players, there's a statistical basis to their complaints.
She is obviously choking out the rest of the roster. It's gotten so bad, that ZSS is performing worse than Melee Luigi.
Wait, that doesn't seem right. Hold on.
Sorry, mislabeled my data; fixed.
Anyway, what was I saying?
I want to take some time to address where the mob mentality comes from, from my perspective, since you and Thinkaman bring that issue up. I'll put it simply: people hate what they can't counterplay against.
: Pretty much everything validates him as inarguably the best character in Melee, from theory to results. Even Thinkaman's post hows how absolutely dominant Fox is in the metagame, with double the success of the second-best character. But, not many people really hate him. It's arguable to say that people actually like him. So, what gives? Well, after 15 years of metagame development, knowledge in how to counterplay Fox has developed massively, to an almost-flowcharty point at times. For example, watch any Fox play against M2K's Marth on FD. Fox has flaws that can easily be counterplayed and taken advantage of. Mainly, he's combo food due to his combo weight, and his recovery can easily gimped at times. And, people know how to take advantage of these weaknesses. People know how to take advantage of his combo weight to deal massive damage to him on combos, and people know how to gimp his recovery. In short, people don't feel helpless fighting against Fox because they know how to fight him.: Jiggs' presence in the meta is basically carried by one player, and Puff's results are generally pretty weak compared to the top tiers for that reason. And yet, people absolutely hate his guts. Why? I would say this comes down to people not knowing how to fight Puff. How do you reliably handle his ledge camping? How do you reliably handle his tech traps? How do you reliably handle his BAir spacing? Not that counterplay hasn't been developed against Jiggs, but it's not nearly to the extent that Fox counterplay has been developed. For example, the traditional approach to Fox vs. Puff is to laser camp; but I've heard people questioning this approach to the MU. Basically, people don't know how to fight Jiggs, so people don't like her. Even Armada switched off Peach vs. Hungrybox because Peach counterplay against Puff is basically "Puff screws you; switch characters". And we all know how much Armada likes Puff.: I don't need to explain how much people hate Bayo. We all already know that. Now as for Bayo counterplay, what counterplay has been developed? The main thing counterplay developing against Bayonetta is SDI; but the reliability of that is questionable, especially when doing the correct SDI can get you killed. How does one counterplay Witch Time reliably? Grabs are a big one, but what about characters who have bad grabs/aren't grab-heavy? I know that old thought was that Bayo's neutral wasn't amazing, although I'm not sure how true that is. But, even if that's true, how do you take advantage of it? The point is that Bayo counterplay is, although developing, still unreliable; and I'm sure that's a big part of why people hate playing her. Because counterplay hasn't been developed so much for her, it's easy to feel helpless and frustrated playing against her.
Bayo counterplay has developed to the point where only the top Bayo players are able to gather results worthy of the title of the best character of the game. Those players must to able to use creative options, successfully shift from offense to defense, and read the opponent's DI/SDI. Bayo's nuetral isn't too good because of her laggy grounded attacks and large frame.Actually an excellent post.
I want to take some time to address where the mob mentality comes from, from my perspective, since you and Thinkaman bring that issue up. I'll put it simply: people hate what they can't counterplay against.
Let's take a look at some different characters in Smash history and see how this concept applies:
Now, I don't think the mob mentality is justified. I don't like playing against Bayo myself, but the sheer hatred for her is misplaced and unjustified in my opinion. I just wanted to explain a possible cause for that hatred in the first place.
yeah I'm also scared to see how this will turn out just because mkleo got a combo on a player that doesn't play smash 4 with Ridley on a stage with a really small blast zone that Sakurai doesn't nerf her to the point of being completely useless I'm already scared of how Cloud will turn out Bayonetta already got a lot of nerfs so i hope that Sakurai doesn't list to the Bayonetta haters
