the Impossible Match-ups Rule (IMR)

[Throwback]

This rule isn't going to make your players happy at all. Someone who's forced to play a secondary because of this rule will be (rightfully, in my opinion) pissed. It'd be much more reasonable to allow the bunny to repick; that way you're only allowing someone the chance to use a secondary, not forcing them. Even that, though, I'm extremely hesitant to recommend: it essentially lets you counterpick on the first match.

The alternative is that players of more mains (7v5) are forced to play a secondary AND they suffer a 1 round defecit from being forced to play the impossible match-up.

I explored the idea of the bunny repicking when I first drafted this rule, like you said it's not a great idea.

edit @ ZoSo: If you ban infinites do you ban pika's d-throw chain on fox, which isn't an infinite but guarantees a win anyway? What about the wario CG on DK (and apparently bowser). What happens if I accidently d-throw twice in a row with D3 - do I immediately lose the round? You can make specific in-match rules or you can bypass the issue altogether, which is what the IMR does. I'd rather bypass the issue for simplicity, others prefer to ban the specific things they see as broken.

 

[pockyD]

or they can just not use bad characters

 

[<π]

I wish there was a rule where you couldn't attack pichu because it damages itself. That'd be amazing.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I wish there was a rule where you couldn't attack pichu because it damages itself. That'd be amazing.

Everytime Pichu misses a self-damaging hit, you have to suffer the same amount of damage, with a 1% margin of error.

If he overshoots, you don't get to hit him back because he's Pichu.

 

[2.72]

Everytime Pichu misses a self-damaging hit, you have to suffer the same amount of damage, with a 1% margin of error.

If he overshoots, you don't get to hit him back because he's Pichu.

Excellent idea! Actually, I have an even better one. In every match with a Pichu a third player uses Fox and just runs around lasering Pichu's opponent to balance out the self-damaging factor.

 

[<π]

Sounds nice and fair to me. Pichu is now a viable tourney character.

 

[Megavitamins]

Best monty python reference ever. killer rabbit ftw = )

 

[ZoSo]

Oops .

 

[pockyD]

the wobbling ban is certainly an incredibly flimsy premise though, and the only reason people don't challenge it is because they don't want to be jerks

 

[ZoSo]

The alternative is that players of more mains (7v5) are forced to play a secondary AND they suffer a 1 round defecit from being forced to play the impossible match-up.

I explored the idea of the bunny repicking when I first drafted this rule, like you said it's not a great idea.

edit @ ZoSo: If you ban infinites do you ban pika's d-throw chain on fox, which isn't an infinite but guarantees a win anyway? What about the wario CG on DK (and apparently bowser). What happens if I accidently d-throw twice in a row with D3 - do I immediately lose the round? You can make specific in-match rules or you can bypass the issue altogether, which is what the IMR does. I'd rather bypass the issue for simplicity, others prefer to ban the specific things they see as broken.

I'm not in favor of banning anything, but one of your arguments is that just banning the matchup would be easier to enforce than banning the infinites, and I'm telling you that it's never been an issue in the past. Ever.

You've also ignored the fact that there isn't a 1:1 ratio of DDD players and (insert Bunny here) players at the majority of tournaments.

 

[cutter]

This is an absolutely moronic proposal for tournament play.

You're arbritarily saying what "impossible matchups" are and instead of just accepting the fact a character has bad matchups, you've gone completely slaphappy on banning stuff.

If you're doing this just to increase the viability of characters, then tough shit. No character is perfect and you'll just have to consider that characters can be counterpicked. We don't ban things to increase the character viability of a handful of characters, we ban things when they overcentralize the game so bad it becomes "play this or lose".

As Overswarm said in an AIM conversation a while back, "We're not going to babysit individual characters."

Maybe if people didn't cry so much about D3's infinites and preemptively scream BAN BAN BAN!!!!!!, then we'd never have stuff like this.

Seems pretty lazy to me.

 

[TheManaLord]

This is really, really, really stupid.

 

[Throwback]

I'm not in favor of banning anything, but one of your arguments is that just banning the matchup would be easier to enforce than banning the infinites, and I'm telling you that it's never been an issue in the past. Ever.

You've also ignored the fact that there isn't a 1:1 ratio of DDD players and (insert Bunny here) players at the majority of tournaments.

The issue is not in the tournament, it's outside the tournament - for example, is Pika's d-throw chain on fox to ~100% banned? How about ZSS's dsmash, or IC's infinites which are much harder to set up/perform than D3's? Release grab infinites? Do you start including CGs? You can set irules for every ndividual scenario but it's unwieldy and there's a lot of ambiguity. I'd rather not say 'you can only do X and Y during this matchup', instead I say - you can't play the match-up since it's broken. I'm just bypassing the issues that come with banning infinites.

We did discuss simply banning infinites, but we didn't like the grey areas.

As for the D3 ratios thing, why do you suppose there is such a dearth (sp?) of mario, luigi & DK mains? The fact they can insta-lose a round is a big factor. Same with Lucas.

 

[The Dragon]

why does this thread still exist? man up and stop b1tching

 

[thumbswayup]

Here's an idea

Play Melee.

/thread

 

[Foxy]

here's what's wrong with this: you quote pika vs. fox as an IMR, but it's not even close to what almost EVERY match against a fast faller is in melee. any character that has a tech-chase throw against a fast-faller can basicall zero to death (certainly more than 100%) as long as they keep their stuff together. an almost guaranteed 100% shouldn't be that big of an issue.

also, i might obnoxiously bring up wobbling, an infinite against everyone, which even when it wasn't banned wasn't a guaranteed win. don't get grabbed. it is entirely possible to space away from grabs and take advantage of your opponent's grabbing and get a stock's worth of % or even a kill before he gets a grab, and all he can get from it (if he does it correctly, of course) is one kill. an infinite seems obviously broken but there's the simple truth. just get a little more than a stock for every time you get grabbed. be good. and if you aren't good you wouldn't win anyways.

finally, LOL JIGGS VS FOX/FALCO in melee. basically free kill every grab, guess how that matchup goes? plenty of fox's win. watch m2k in '06: spaces lasers, uthrow-uair or usmash for the kill. the important thing is that he gets more than 1 kill for every rest the jiggs gets.

just some insight lawls

oh, and if you can't tell from me analogies, melee is a better game. go watch the new socal tourney vids with wombo combo, you will be convinced.

 

[luke_atyeo]

lol @ foxy cutting off the shazam on his dp logo.
and I also loled at the "I brought a knife to a gun fight, sorry boys you gotta downgrade"

anyways isaac this is getting a lot of negative feedback, we should look into alteratives and probably have a vote so that the people coming to the tourney can decide if they want it or not, since it doesnt work for every character.

of course, once we pick a rule we have to stick with it.

 

[KillerSOS]

I don't like this rule. Sorry

 

[2.72]

finally, LOL JIGGS VS FOX/FALCO in melee. basically free kill every grab, guess how that matchup goes? plenty of fox's win. watch m2k in '06: spaces lasers, uthrow-uair or usmash for the kill. the important thing is that he gets more than 1 kill for every rest the jiggs gets.

In fact, Mango puts Falco as an even matchup, and Hungrybox said that Fox is Jigg's hardest matchup. As a Falco player I disagree with the former simply because Jiggs has a number of good counterpicks against Falco while Falco has absolutely none against Jiggs, but it's pretty close.

 

[petrie911]

The only way I could reasonably see something like this implemented is the following.

1) it only applies to the first, double-blind pick
2) if the impossible matchup comes up, the double-blind pick is repeated. The results of the second pick are final, even if it again results in an impossible matchup.

 

[Spife]

I don't want to say much without proper knowledge, so can you post some videos of these impossible match ups?
I'd go on to say something refuting what you're getting at, but I think it's an okay idea. I agree though that if you throw a bunny out on the first match, then you're gambling that match. Also, Melee didn't have to deal with loopy rules. I was going to say something else. Maybe.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

"Whoops, I took a knife to a gun fight, looks like you fellas gotta downgrade."

/thread.

Seriously, this is dumb.

 

[M@v]

I just to point out something for the impossible matchups:
Pika is fine, But ZSS isnt "impossible" anymore. Its actually very hard to get caught in.

However, Fox and Wolf can get 30%-Death by Sheik. Ftilt lock-Upsmash. Im pretty sure most fox mains would rather see sheik on this list vs fox than ZSS.

However, If I didnt have to worry about Pika, That would be fine by me

PS: Wolf gets owned by the pika cg as much as fox does.


As for the idea itself, Hearts in the right place, but I dont think it can work :/

 

[highandmightyjoe]

DK/Wario is not anywhere near impossible. We just discussed the matchup on the DK boards and called it 6-4 Wario advantage. It was also debated as even for a while. Not even remotely close to impossible.

Also, note that I main DK and don't want the DDD infinite banned. Its just the price I pay for playing the character I like. I accept that he has bad matchups, and I have counterpicks for helping me get past them. Nature of the game.

 

[Spife]

Also, note that I main DK and don't want the DDD infinite banned. Its just the price I pay for playing the character I like. I accept that he has bad matchups, and I have counterpicks for helping me get past them. Nature of the game.

This. Also, you shouldn't have to make it fair for bunnies, are there any high tier bunnies? Chances are MK would have done better in the match up anyway

 

[8AngeL8]

I appreciate the effort in coming up with this rule, but it completely flies in the face of competitive gaming. By choosing to main DK or Mario or any of the other "bunnies," you're signing up for the risk of being infinited. If you don't like it, you can play someone else. Forcing the counterpicking player to switch characters just to be nice to someone who chose to main a sub-par character is an insult.

If you don't want to get counterpicked that hard, play someone else.

 

[Throwback]

We've decided to go with simply banning infinite throws - it's easier to understand for new players. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[cj.Shark]

finally, LOL JIGGS VS FOX/FALCO in melee. basically free kill every grab, guess how that matchup goes? plenty of fox's win. watch m2k in '06: spaces lasers, uthrow-uair or usmash for the kill. the important thing is that he gets more than 1 kill for every rest the jiggs gets.

your kidding right? the grab rest theory has been debunked so many times. Just DI for godsakes

 

[ELI-mination]

Hey guess what? Bum mains DK and beats some of the best DDD players with DK.

Get *****.

 

[rehab]

when the infinite is banned anyway, which is something like pro-ban's point

 

[Natch]

Dude, this is a complete blunder of a rule. You are complete reversing the counterpicking syste of Brawl. When a player loses a match, the counterpicking system is designed to give him an advantage. Loser get's the advantage. Not the winner. You are banning anyone from counterpicking a HHG against someone who uses a bunny. The bunnies are all low and mid tier characters, outside of DK who is a high tier.

The low and mid tier characters are in those tiers for a reason-the HHG being one of them, but that is hardley the deciding factor. Even though DK has a HHG, he still managed to get into high tier. There has to be other factors other than the HHG that limits their competitive viability.

Even within the ban-which breaks the counterpick system-you are inconsistant. DK is a high tier, and is gaining the exact same advantages as the mid and low tier bunnies. Shouldn't DK gain less of an advantage than the mid and low tier bunnies?



Honestly, you are a complete ignorant and do not understand the rhyme, rythm, and reason that drives the competitive Smash community and the rules behind it. I would honestly close this topic-you are not going to win this argument. It's a bad solution to a minor problem.


EDIT: Oh, so you're banning the infinite throws? Good luck with that, it'll probably flop hard for massive damage.

 

[The Dragon]

Hey guess what? Bum mains DK and beats some of the best DDD players with DK.

Get *****.

/thread... again

 

[Pierce7d]

Infinites are banned in Bum's region, which he runs . . .

just sayin.

Also, this idea made me chuckle. Good intent, bad plan.

Sorry, but fact of the matter is, not every single character was designed to be tourney viable. You're not supposed to be able to "win with your favorite." Some characters are good, and some are not. Some are good and get wrecked by a dthrow. That's the way of the game. I know it's hard to grasp at first, but you'll realize that not every character is designed to win. The game wasn't made to be balanced, lol.

Also, Melee gtfo. I respect Melee, so please, don't disrespect yourself by coming into this thread and talking about Melee.

 

[Scar]

ddd vs falco is an impossible match. Me and atomsk both agree, and chillin too, that if falco plays the match right there's nothing DDD can do

edit - this is m2k

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I think the remedy is worse than the illness in here. The things that shouldn't exist are infinites. A honorable warrior shouldn't use them, but because many don't care about honor at all, then a law should be enforced. On the other hand.. it is sad that we can never see a nice fox vs pikachu fight because this detestable maneuver exists. Let us attack the root of the problem. Every match up should be possible and every player should have the freedom to stay with a character if they wish so..