The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Tokaio]

Yay, finally GW discussion . I don't think it's as bad as the old match-up thread says, but I don't think it's neutral. Spacing is the key to this matchup.

Yes, GW's have the bucket, but that doesn't do much to us. As long as we don't PKF spam, and don't get too predictable with it, then you can bait him into using that and go in for the punish. The only thing the bucket does is it nullifies our PKT1 edgeguard, and can ruin our PKT2.

The turtle is such a pain, and outranges all our moves, but it has bad landing lag, so again you can punish him if he spaces wrong. You can always try PKFing when he initiates the Bair. Sometimes, they keep moving forward, and you can get a sourspot PKF on him when it hits his turtle.
Nair doesn't do much to Lucas. Just try not to get on a platform and you should be fine.

Watch out for his smashes. They have ridiculously low ending lag.

Off the ledge is where it gets very disadvantageous. He has three ways to screw up your PKT2 ._. Trampoline, U -air, and Bucket. You'll usually see bucket since it COMPLETELY fills it, and can be used as an attack later on. You should zap jump, so he doesn't get the chance to gimp you. Also, if he's off the ledge, you can barely do anything to him. PKT1 edgeguard is useless, and I don't think you should spike if he's so far away, since you might be forced to use PKT2, and you can't spike close because he'll try to trampoline, and it has invincibility frames. However, usually you don't need to edgeguard, since he's lightweight, so you can pull of an easy kill.

Watch out for his D-throws. Make sure you tech it, especially at high %'s, since he can follow it with a D-smash if you don't tech it.

Overall, the only thing you gotta watch out for when you're off the ledge.
So, I say 40:60.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

B-air's landing lag has a hitbox

Half our camping game is gone, our means of edge-guarding are gone and our means of getting back to the stage are sometimes nullified... this is still a tough MU even if he doesn't get to gimp you.

I'm going to go through his moveset now

Aerials
B-Air - First of all, you must be comfortable to learn the reach of his b-air, you can't shield and punish it at all. You must stay out of that range and PKF his feet to be able to hit him because his turtle will explode it if it hits it. Seriously, learn the spacing, it is KEY to this MU.
D-air - It's annoying, but it's tolerable. It has a really big hit-box. The thing is there are 3 or 2 speeds he can float this with; regular, slow and (fast?). It's a good mix up that you have to watch out for. When it lands it has two hitboxes so wait for it to hit your shield twice before you punish, or just stay out of range. If he does it in the air, you must remember that it penetrates your blind spot so I'd dash out of it's way. But if he does become D-air spammy you must Up-smash to keep him in fear and keep him at bay.
Up-air - this one is sometimes difficult to deal with. Good thing we have a disjointed and ranged D-air and an above average fall speed, so it shouldn't be difficult to deal with his Up-air, just try to avoid him juggling with it because it will refresh his moves if he hits with the wind hit-box
N-air - this moves main source of hurt is above and again we will be able to d-air if he is below. This move is one of the least ranged moves of his aerial arsenal, it shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
F-air - It's sweet-spot start up hitbox is a great aeial KO move but even if he isn't able to hit with it, he still can hit with an enourmously long hit-box and huge range but it won't kill. It has extreme landing lag, it's easy to score a KO if he lands it wrong

Tilts -
F-tilt - This is probably the least spammed ground move. Learn it's hit-box and punish with a grab in his long hit-box lag.
D-tilt - This is my favorite to use when I use G&W. It's ubeeer disjointed, it think it has more range than snakes u-tilt IMO. It's near unpunishable comes out somewhat fast and ***** Lucas. Watch out for this after he lands an aerial. Be careful of this move after you tether I think it has enough range below it that it can hit you as you pull up. The main thing is, this move ***** unless you learn how to space against G&W
U-tilt - I have little experience with this move, but it chains at low percents and is pretty decent juggle move

Smash -
F-Smash - This has a long hit-box and will be used in place of his f-tilt. If you happen to side step this move hold your shield other wise you'll still be hit. It has low ending lag and has somewhat decent start up lag. It has a sweet-spot where the fire is and and non-sweet spot where the stick is. My tips as for Lucas is to try space and don't punish or you could eat a retaliation
U-Smash - It's slow, but kills to well and has low ending lag. One notable thing is the his head has no hurt-box and you should try to use a low hitting ground attack such as d-tilt, I wouldn't try to d-air him during this but it might work...
D-Smash - It's fast and hits on both sides. It's most used when he d-throws you because you can't get out of it unless you tech. There's sweet-spot and sour-spot but both should be able to kill you the only difference is the direction IMO

Regular Attacks
Jab - has a hit-box behind him and needs to be DI'd away from him, pretty simple stuff, but keep in mind if he spams it too much it's hard for him to get out and you can really punish that so make him remember that
Dash Attack - It's hit-box is way to long. I wouldn't really want to commit shield on this one if you want to punish, but it's slow and can be punished with a move, just becareful of the long hit-box. It's also a good juggling move for G&W

Specials -
Up-B - This is one of the best recoveries in the game IMO, he has way too much aerial mobility afterwards, this move will destory any attempts at gimping and can be used to continue juggling on-stage. It has invinciblity frames so he's a projectile himself. It also gimps the s*** out of Lucas

Side-B - This move is really random and is almost never spamed because it's just not good and is way too punishable... just punish

Neutral-B - Sausage, it's actually not that bad of a projectile, but can be beaten with a PKF and it can get him stuck if he starts to really spam it. I like to punish that with an Up-smash but this will rarely happen...

Down-B - This stops your spamming. or does it? It comes out quick, unlike PSI Magnet and unlike PSI Magnet has extreme ending lag, I'm talking near Lucas Up-smash ending lag when he buckets something. Use that to your advantage and make him afraid to commit to his bucket. Just be careful on this last filling of his bucket because I think it's not that bad of ending lag. When his bucket's full he will try to approach with dodgeing of sorts and try your best not to commit to smash's. Don't assume you can stay in the air also, it's just as lethal there. It's sometimes a good follow up to d-throw for him so avoid being grabed.

Grabs -
D-throw - Tech-chase... 'nough said

Anyway, just tell me if you notice something wrong with what I posted and try to add to it as best as possible

I'm not sure about a ratio here though, but it's still definitely in his favor...

 

[Chuee]

Jab- G&W probably won't use this often
Ftilt- ^ & shield it
Utilt- ^ & airdodge it if he decides to try and chain
Dtilt- just shield it. Don't try and punish it.
UpB- Great Recovery, ungimpable. Can use this to escape, has invincibility frames.
SideB- Don't worry about this unless your playing UTD Zac.
DownB- Can absorb our PKF, PKT, and Freeze but can be baited into and getting free hits since it be reeeeeaaalllll laggy.
NeutralB- PKF > Bacon, move not used often
Bair- Don't shield it, just try to run away from it and try to punish since its a bit laggy.
Dair- This is easy. There are quite a few options against this. shield grab, pivot grab, Ftilt OoS, etc
Uair- Our Dair > his Uair
Nair- ^ and shield and punish on ground
Fair- Don't get hit by this, it KO's
Dsmash- Its fast, great knockback, little lag. Try and predict it and shield.
Usmash- Shouldn't be a big problem on ground, don't airdodge into it.
Fsmash- Like Usmash but on ground. Avoid getting hit by this.

60-40
Bait him to use Bucket
Always recover with ropesnake
DONT SHIELD BAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Uffe]

G&W's Bucket has a limit. If you carelessly spam PKF and he absorbs it with his Bucket, then he can't absorb anymore after that. And it's not like he has any projectile like the spacies, Pit or R.O.B., so I'm pretty sure you can out-camp him. When you need to recover, your best option is Zap Jumping, so you don't really need to worry about him jumping down at you and absorbing your PKT with his Bucket. Also, if G&W uses his bair and you have no other option, then you'll have to shield it. It does six hits.

 

[~Nasty~]

In addition to what's been said... G&W can dash attack you if you're hanging on the ledge and if your invincibility frames are gone it WILL spike you. So don't camp the ledge for too long.

 

[Chuee]

Thats why you don't let your invincibility frames wear off.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I don't know, him having a full bucket still kind of scares me... it's a near guarenteed KO and it's not like it has s*** range. Do any of you other guys think that letting his bucket be filled to camp him be a good idea?

 

[Uffe]

If you feel like it, try and test what attacks make his Bucket power weak. It's not always a guaranteed kill by his Bucket. So if you can fill that up, camp by B-sticking/Wavebounce, getting close whenever necessary, then go for it. I'd think he has an easier time against G&W than Ness because of what he's capable of doing with that PKF and Zap Jump for recovering.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

only thing lucas has that doesnt count as "high" power is the tail of pk thunder, I have faked a pk thunder straight at G&Ws for them to bring out bucket, then whip it around to fill it with 3 hits of the tail, takes some getting used to because of the size of the bucket, but if you can get it down, works really well, and after that, you can spam the hell out of them

 

[Uffe]

So it's really no different than Ness. Okay, so I guess good luck doing that. Your best bet would to get him in the air. And how often does he get in the air? Somewhat often. After all, his bair, fair, dair, nair, all aerial, obviously and we know he does that more than enough times. I mean you could always trick him into thinking you're going to use PKF on him. I've seen that happen a few times before.

 

[~Nasty~]

I don't know, him having a full bucket still kind of scares me... it's a near guarenteed KO and it's not like it has s*** range. Do any of you other guys think that letting his bucket be filled to camp him be a good idea?

just b/c his bucket is filled doesn't mean you're gonna get hit by it. If he has a full bucket just play it smart with key spacing (just like how this entire MU is supposed to be played). Keep in mind that G&W probably wouldn't use the bucket on you if you're at a high %. He'll try to kill u first and then use it on you when you're b/w 0-50% IMO. That's probably the best time for him to use it anyway.

 

[HailCrest]

fully filled bucket comes out on the second frame. when bucket is absorbing, there's an obscene amount of lag, enough to pull an fsmash with impunity.

besides, pk fire's bolt is weak and only does 3% damage. if G&W gets the explosion however, it's marginally more powerful (probably possible on luigi's mansion).

grabbing him out of his upB but not doing anything to him will guarantee death.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Fully filled bucket comes out on second frame at the closest possible range. I think there are like three different parts to it. If you're not ridiculously close, you can block it on reaction.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Another way for him to gimp us is with his own D-air spike... just would like to put that out...

 

[Uffe]

Would any of you guys and gals like to contact the Mr. Game & Watch boards? At least then they could probably put more input on how their character works.

 

[Tokaio]

Would any of you guys and gals like to contact the Mr. Game & Watch boards? At least then they could probably put more input on how their character works.

Rocket already contacted them, but they haven't responded

 

[Tyr_03]

As long as you don't spam PK Fire Game and Watch won't know when to bucket and will get hit with it. Then once he's at Usmash kill percentage you can start spamming it and if he buckets it then you get to run over and get a free Usmash. Just be careful to not fill it completely and don't let him bucket gimp your PK Thunder. Once they catch on to how much lag it has they won't bother with the bucket most of the time unless they're trying to gimp you.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's also good when they don't catch anything, it takes six frames to come out then he's stuck in his own lag for 50 frames, if you can spam and mix it up with PKFire cancels that'll stop him from bucketing and you could probably still spam... what do you think about that?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So, does any one want to try to figure out a ratio? I think it's 60:40 to 65:35

just b/c his bucket is filled doesn't mean you're gonna get hit by it. If he has a full bucket just play it smart with key spacing (just like how this entire MU is supposed to be played). Keep in mind that G&W probably wouldn't use the bucket on you if you're at a high %. He'll try to kill u first and then use it on you when you're b/w 0-50% IMO. That's probably the best time for him to use it anyway.

Well it depends on who you fight. If they have a full bucket they can't bucket brake to live to higher percents. Some G&W's such as my own like to use ASAP so we have the bucket advantage still. It all depends on the G&W

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

60:40, its not as bad as the other 65:35s

 

[Chuee]

So, does any one want to try to figure out a ratio? I think it's 60:40 to 65:35



Well it depends on who you fight. If they have a full bucket they can't bucket brake to live to higher percents. Some G&W's such as my own like to use ASAP so we have the bucket advantage still. It all depends on the G&W

But the thing that sucks is when he has a full bucket we can't get an Usmash from the bucket lag. Its weird. When you can bait into an Usmash he can bucket break (most of the time) and when you can't bait he can't bucket break =/

60-40

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Bucket Brake is only Horizontal... he'd be broken if it was vertical. He can bucket brake if we do F-smash though

 

[Uffe]

Maybe it's just me, but I used Mr. Game & Watch last night over at my friends house and found myself not using the Bucket Brake when I really needed it, knowing I should be using it. And there was a time I was fighting a Mr. Game & Watch who used a Bucket Brake a few times, but not all the time. So, I think it's safe to say that there won't always be a Bucket Brake from Mr. Game & Watch. And if he does do that, try and force him further away. I mean what else can he do when he's off the stage? Fair you? Bair you? If he does an Up B, that'll probably just knock you back to the stage. I'm just saying, they know how to do it, but they won't do it every time.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

First of all, I use bucket braking like a *****, in fact I CP'ed my friends Ike with G&W and took her (yes, it's a she) to rainbow cruise and took an f-smash to the face when I tried to space a b-air and failed... I then bucket braked to live and win the match.

Also never underestimate G&W's recovery, it's way to good. If the G&W is feeling risky they can d-air spike, they can also pretty much use any aerial safely. G&W is beast off stage, and we can't do anything about it.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I hate double posting but...

I think we should start stage discussion...

Here's what I think:

Strike: Lylat, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair
Counterpick: Brinstar, Final Destination

 

[Rachmaninav89]

sounds good to me haha I haven't really played any game and watches so i can't really put much input :/

 

[Tokaio]

Stage Strike: Lylat, BF. Platforms are really good with him. D-throw tech chase, and Nair camping below. He'll probably strike Yoshi's, since it's his worst.
CP: Brinstar, FD Definitely Brinstar, but he'll probably ban it, so i think FD is your next best bet.
Ban: Rainbow Cruise. Just always ban RC it's way too good for GW. Norfair isn't enough to be banned. Although GW does well on this stage, it helps us recover more, and can prevent him from gimping us with da bucke.t

 

[rPSIvysaur]

OK so Rainbow Cruise only sounds good then? (also if Corneria and Green Greens for some reason aren't banned, you should ban them.) I Choose Norfair because our camping game is gone, his d-throw tech chase is too good, he does way too well with platforms and a good Lucas shouldn't really be getting gimped by G&W and it relies too much on wether or not the lava is there. Certainly not stage you want to CP atleast. BTW I love Brinstar, smexiest CP against G&W gaurenteed.

I'm going to wrap G&W up soon, any last words?

 

[GreyClover]

The matchup is real hard like 7:3 hard.

G&W is a little *****. He outprorities almost everything we have. G&W has a very powerful Fsmash and DI'ing incorrectly will get you killed faster. To momentum cancel the Fsmash, mash the control stick towards G&W right when you get hit, then push the C-stick down/into G&W. The rest you have to do is momentum cancel like normal. Watch out when G&W is in the air. He has plenty of great priority moves to enforce on you. His Bair and Fairs is something to watchout for also, it has extreme range and spacing ability. Fair has killing potenial especially offstage. If it's sweetspoted you're going to have a hard time getting back to the stage. The bair is an absolute great approach, don't try to ever deny it because none of your attacks can out prorities it. Bair does in fact have long ending lag so if anything punish it, just be care full you don't get hit by the hitbox G&W releases upon landing. G&W's Dthrow is great against Lucas, even if you do perform a roll he can still attack you.

Lucas has a couple options that can effectively work. Dthrow>Utilt works at early percents and dtilt>fsmashes work most of the time. An Fsmash is your best killing option to enforce on G&W, save it so that bucket braking becomes ineffective. Use Dair mostly for damaging purposes, create quick combos and chains with it.

You do not want to get gimped too early. G&W's Bair and Fair can stop pk thunder attempts and are really good at gimping. Your safest option is zap jumps and grapples.

For stage counterpicking chose Brinstar.

 

[Chuee]

The matchup is real hard like 7:3 hard.

G&W is a little *****. He outprorities almost everything we have. G&W has a very powerful Fsmash and DI'ing incorrectly will get you killed faster. To momentum cancel the Fsmash, mash the control stick towards G&W right when you get hit, then push the C-stick down/into G&W. The rest you have to do is momentum cancel like normal. Watch out when G&W is in the air. He has plenty of great priority moves to enforce on you. His Bair and Fairs is something to watchout for also, it has extreme range and spacing ability. Fair has killing potenial especially offstage. If it's sweetspoted you're going to have a hard time getting back to the stage. The bair is an absolute great approach, don't try to ever deny it because none of your attacks can out prorities it. Bair does in fact have long ending lag so if anything punish it, just be care full you don't get hit by the hitbox G&W releases upon landing. G&W's Dthrow is great against Lucas, even if you do perform a roll he can still attack you.

Lucas has a couple options that can effectively work. Dthrow>Utilt works at early percents and dtilt>fsmashes work most of the time. An Fsmash is your best killing option to enforce on G&W, save it so that bucket braking becomes ineffective. Use Dair mostly for damaging purposes, create quick combos and chains with it.

You do not want to get gimped too early. G&W's Bair and Fair can stop pk thunder attempts and are really good at gimping. Your safest option is zap jumps and grapples.

For stage counterpicking chose Brinstar.

No.
More like 60-40

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Mr. Game and Watch is all wraped up.

It's time start discussion on Diddy Kong!

 

[Boofy!]

Pk Thunder can wreck Diddy's recovery if he's not cautious.
Lucas sucks with bananas as far as i know.
Lucas>Diddy in the air
Diddy>>>>Lucas on the ground
Maybe 60-40 Diddy?

 

[Chuee]

How to play this matchup: Grab a banana and camp.

 

[clowsui]

Tyr: "Diddy is a gay character. He makes playing this game not fun, along with Pit and Snake and grab releases. What a piece of ****. This matchup is even or slightly in Diddy's advantage, but no matter what the ratio is playing it is a pain in the ***."

Prediction...

 

[Chuee]

Nice prediction Clowsui. I bet it's what he'll say, lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's obvious that Lucas has no glide toss, but he has item zap jump, so he nanners could be a pretty safe way over recovering?

I'd take this fight to the air and space my aerials, I feel that f-air could out-prioritize most of Diddy's aerials, but you'd have to make sure that you space because Diddy has some fast aerials. I have little to no MU experience here, but I suppose that F-smash would be fun to reflect nana's with, but it's not very practical.

Obviously try to make sure Diddy doesn't have control of his Nana's, we can gimp him pretty well with our PKT off stage.

Tyr: "This MU isn't that annoying actually when you get the Banana's, but he's s*** annoying when he has them"

Prediction... (although, clowsui's probably going to get it right )

 

[Tokaio]

I absolutely hate Diddy and his nana's. Are there any tricks that Lucas can do with nana's? I have a bit of trouble with them since they get so annoying >_>. I always try to jab or something like that, but end up picking them up. They get in the way of playing so much. Definitely PKT1 chase...but don't hit him so soon. He can DI it, giving him a free trip to the stage. Basically, just loop it around him, and when he starts Up-B'ing, hit him. I don't think you should reflect the bananas. It just makes your F-smash stale. 45:55 is my say.

 

[HailCrest]

does shffing a nair over the banana pick it up?

and are there any tricks lucas can pull off to avoid banana locks?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

does shffing a nair over the banana pick it up?

and are there any tricks lucas can pull off to avoid banana locks?

doing a short hop Nair will pick up the banana, but you have to be pretty close to it.

There really aren't any tricks lucas has to avoid the bananas besides staying in the air, which is when you wanna be on this MU

I'd say the ratio is 60:40 diddy's favor

 

[prOAPC]

sh airdodge to grab bananas when he throws them to you