The Mario Match-up Index (Updated as of 1/14/10)

[Steeler]

rock smash can interrupt mario's utilt/uair combos, good points about cape when it comes to aggressive rock smashing. short hop rock smash isn't a good idea here.

defensive rock smash should still be effective unless you predict it with a cape. the boulder comes out in less than 5 frames (cape comes out in 12) and if a hitbox makes contact with it, the boulder will collapse as if charizard had headbutted it. since the vast majority of mario's attacks will not be disjointed...rock smash as a "counter" move seems pretty effective to me.

as a defensive maneuver, you can't just rely on cape. it's like saying marth's counter doesn't work. counter is in response to something that you are doing, so you often cannot cape.

now as an approach, yeah you can just cape it back.

how exactly is zard's grab range not going to have an effect on this matchup lol. mario has issues with shieldgrabbers and zard is one of the best.

ivysaur's nair and bair tie with mario's nair and uair.

fireballs won't get mario anywhere either if they are being blocked.

i think matador's comments are right on, they can both kill each other. ivy has a spacing advantage and mario has an offstage advantage. but again, fireballs for approach aren't that effective because ivysaur's disjointed attacks cancel them out. i really think this is neutral-ish. same with zard. disadvantage squirtle. neutral overall.

 

[Matt07]

Charizard's Rock Smash is hard to Cape cause they always use it for defence, and it comes out fast.

Ivy has an awesome 'anti-air' game, he's hardest of the three in my opinion, and I hate his (her? Whichever you prefer) ridicilous grab range, cause shield grabbing sucks.

 

[HeroMystic]

I never found Rock Smash hard to cape...

I found Charizard's grab range to be the hardest thing about him, but all you really have to do is not approach.

Again, I can't comment on Ivysaur.

 

[Matt07]

I always miss Caping Rock Smashes.

But it's probably because it's stupidly hard to time on WiFi.

 

[HeroMystic]

Anything that requires reaction time is impossible online. lol

 

[Takeshi245]

Anything that requires reaction time is impossible online. lol

Tell me about it. One of the reasons why Wi-Fi's not good for an accurate skill judgement. It's more about prediction for the most part.

 

[Matador]

Honestly, I had no idea about all of this PT stuff. If what Steeler's saying is true, then Ivy has a pretty good case for an even match-up. Getting on the inside vs Ivy is hard enough already WITH fireballs. Without them, I could see Ivy keeping Mario out pretty well, and killing even better. Do we know for sure that Ivy's Nair and Bulletseed interrupt Mario's combos? If so, I'm probably going 50:50.

Charizard, I still see as 60:40. Grab range and defensive rocksmash aren't too difficult to deal with. IIRC, you can't shieldgrab Mario out of SHDair, and you can easily land behind the shield safely because Dair autocancels. I'm still not sure how effective his rocksmash will be vs Mario, especially since they can only be safely used as a defense. If Charizard can't keep Mario out, punishment will be heavy.

Judge, I could've sworn I've caped DK's Giant Punch and nothing happened...he remained punching in the same direction and often taking the stock. I can also remember caping multiple Olimars during their downB and they keep moving; only taking the measly 6% instead of turning around. If cape turns around SA frames, why does this happen all the time?

 

[Judge Judy]

Judge, I could've sworn I've caped DK's Giant Punch and nothing happened...he remained punching in the same direction and often taking the stock. I can also remember caping multiple Olimars during their downB and they keep moving; only taking the measly 6% instead of turning around. If cape turns around SA frames, why does this happen all the time?

IDK, I've done the same things and never had any problems.

 

[Matador]

IDK, I've done the same things and never had any problems.

I'll dig up a replay or something to show you what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm caping too late or something?

 

[Steeler]

don't forget charizard's usmash out of shield, which has great range, and comes out in...

five frames

holy batman, 5 frame smash attack? i thought mk was the only guy with that kind of crap!

if mario lands behind zard after some attack, charizard can bair out of shield, which is a 7 frame attack, or rock smash backwards...which comes out in less than 5 frames. you will have to shield the attack and you'll either take a massive amount of shield damage or just get shieldpoked anyway. if sidestepping the entire attack is possible (i doubt but have never tested) you would need very precise timing.

zard has all of his spots covered OoS with grab, rock smash, bair, and usmash. so it isn't easy for mario to escape punishment from attacking zard's shield.

flamethrower is a decent approach when short hopped. caping it will just clash with the next flame burst. fludd would probably work because water beats fire. i don't know if zard would suffer WIHL (water cuz fludd isn't the only thing that can do it!!) though.

here's some words of wisdom for you guys, as a fellow EFF YOU tier main:

matchup discussions against fellow EFF ME or Godammit Sakurai tier mains are hard to determine because you rarely have any experience against them.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'll dig up a replay or something to show you what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm caping too late or something?

Or maybe I'm caping too early.

 

[Judge Judy]

don't forget charizard's usmash out of shield, which has great range, and comes out in...

five frames

holy batman, 5 frame smash attack? i thought mk was the only guy with that kind of crap!

Mario's Dsmash also comes out in 5 frames, it's not that big of a deal. Granted, it is a good OOS option but it's not like Mario can't do the same thing, plus Mario has Up B OOS shield which is pretty much like Marth's except slightly less punishable.

if mario lands behind zard after some attack, charizard can bair out of shield, which is a 7 frame attack, or rock smash backwards...which comes out in less than 5 frames. you will have to shield the attack and you'll either take a massive amount of shield damage or just get shieldpoked anyway. if sidestepping the entire attack is possible (i doubt but have never tested) you would need very precise timing.

Mario's Bair comes out in 6 frames, Uair and Dair are about 5, and Nair comes out in about 4 frames, also Mario's aerials (except Fair) are nearly lagless.

zard has all of his spots covered OoS with grab, rock smash, bair, and usmash. so it isn't easy for mario to escape punishment from attacking zard's shield.

Charizard's best OOS option is his grab and that would be the only reason why I would hesitate to atk his shield.

flamethrower is a decent approach when short hopped. caping it will just clash with the next flame burst. fludd would probably work because water beats fire. i don't know if zard would suffer WIHL (water cuz fludd isn't the only thing that can do it!!) though.

FIHL is more effective reguardless; if you've ever tried to hit directly through the FLUDD it's literally like hitting a brick wall, the same cannot be said for Charizard's fire breath. Also, the FLUDD offers some pushback even while "outprioritized" and the FLUDD cannot be reflected. Honestly though, water hitboxes are just weird altogether.


Edit: double post

 

[HeroMystic]

here's some words of wisdom for you guys, as a fellow EFF YOU tier main:

matchup discussions against fellow EFF ME or Godammit Sakurai tier mains are hard to determine because you rarely have any experience against them.

Which is why we're dicussing this, no?

The fact is that a large majority of this is theory-craft. I so far am only commenting on what I know. Ivy's "anti-air" whatever has holes and it is entirely unrealistic for Ivy to be untouchable for the entire match.

Does Ivysaur has anything that enhances her offensive game? As said before, if all she has is spacing moves then she really does not win the match-up.

Charizard's OOS game is negated by the fact that Mario doesn't have to approach, and Charizard doesn't exactly have any moves that can force one either.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur's nair combos into other aerials, utilt, and bullet seed. bread and butter move. fair is another solid spacer for ivy, it autocancels and has solid range. it also kills at 120% ish. on the ground ivysaur can pressure you into grabs with razor leaf and the tilts. the throws are solid and kill at mid 100s.

 

[Judge Judy]

ivysaur's nair combos into other aerials, utilt, and bullet seed. bread and butter move. fair is another solid spacer for ivy, it autocancels and has solid range. it also kills at 120% ish. on the ground ivysaur can pressure you into grabs with razor leaf and the tilts. the throws are solid and kill at mid 100s.

Ok, but how does Ivysaur's offense fair against Mario?

 

[KirinBlaze]

Mario is just too balanced to give any of PT's Pokemon a serious advantage over him. That's where this match-up becomes in Mario's favour, but that's just my opinion. He can keep up with Squirtle, out manuver and out space Charizard, and Ivy just fails horribly offstage, a place where Mario excels. On the ground their about even I'd say (unless Nair isn't a combo breaker, in which case Mario wins the Close Combat game too.) but Ivy is just so bad offstage when put up against Mario's edgeguard game.

 

[Steeler]

bullet seed has invincibility from frames 1 through 3, and hits on frame 4.

 

[HeroMystic]

And.......?

 

[Steeler]

so it is a great tactic to use to break out of some comboz and to punish stuff

duh

lol

 

[MrEh]

So we imagine it like Bowser's Fortress...but worse at combo breaking.

XD

 

[KirinBlaze]

Off topic but, can we go ahead and make the Mario/Ness match up 100:0 in our favor?

omg Bowser's UpB OOS ***** Mario hard, I play Liquid Gen on a daily basis so I know. lol

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario has Up B OOS shield too you know...

 

[KirinBlaze]

Mario has Up B OOS shield too you know...

Bowser's is pretty fast and in most cases very hard to punish since he can just run way during it. Did I mention it kills? I think his is the better one. I also suck with Mario's UpB OOS since I play with Tap Jump off and have to JC it from the shield.

 

[Judge Judy]

Bowser's is pretty fast and in most cases very hard to punish since he can just run way during it. Did I mention it kills? I think his is the better one. I also suck with Mario's UpB OOS since I play with Tap Jump off and have to JC it from the shield.

Mario's comes out faster, but that's about all I can say; they both pretty much do the same thing OOS, except Bowser doesn't have to worry as much about being punished afterwards if he misses.

 

[HeroMystic]

The PKT discussion seemed to have died, so lets come to a conclusion.

55:45 Advantage against Ivysaur
60:40 Advantage against Charizard
60:40 Advantage against Squirtle

Overall: 55:45 or 60:40 Advantage?

We should probably do Olimar next.

 

[KirinBlaze]

The PKT discussion seemed to have died, so lets come to a conclusion.

55:45 Advantage against Ivysaur
60:40 Advantage against Charizard
60:40 Advantage against Squirtle

Overall: 55:45 or 60:40 Advantage?

We should probably do Olimar next.

I say 60:40 advantage.

 

[HeroMystic]

I hope this isn't all I'm going to get for feedback. lol.

 

[Matt07]

Lol I agree with Kirin.

, not too many Mario mains on lately?

 

[KirinBlaze]

Guess not, most should be getting home soon though.

 

[Steeler]

i think charizard should be 55:45 o:

he can do more out of shield than ivysaur, and has a good gimp game. and kills people.

 

[PKNintendo]

Olimar by far please.

 

[HeroMystic]

Chart Updated.

-Added Wario (40:60)
-Added Bowser (50:50)
-Switched ZSS from 40:60 to 50:50
-Switched Wolf from 40:60 to 45:55
-Switched Pokemon Trainer from 60:40 to 55:45
-Switched Charizard from 55:45 to 60:40
-Switched Squirtle from 70:30(lol) to 60:40

Until I get more feedback for Pokemon Trainer's ratio from other Mario mains he'll stay as 55:45.

Let's get started on Olimar please.

 

[Matador]

Lol I agree with Kirin.

, not too many Mario mains on lately?

<---- Has realized that Matchup discussion is complete bull**** usually and goes out the window when the Brawl starts.

It's really losing its purpose. It's just so that characters like Pit and Marth can flaunt their theory and have something to pull SBR's ear with when the next tier list comes around. Most of the boards don't even bother to retain objectivity ANYway. It's always-

"Mario's recovery is subpar"

"Mario has trouble killing"

"Mario can't approach, we swat away fireballs lololol"

If both sides don't try to keep an open mind, it becomes a tedious mudslinging fest.

 

[BoTastic!]

Yea that gets Annoying. Even though, the killing part is 100% untrue.

 

[HeroMystic]

Indeed match-up discussions have little to no effect when the game starts up, but it would be nice to get this completed so we can show it off to the world, hm?

Look at all those evens...

 

[Matador]

Indeed match-up discussions have little to no effect when the game starts up, but it would be nice to get this completed so we can show it off to the world, hm?

Look at all those evens...

**** the world. They have IvanEva's chart. Let them create their opinions from there.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm going to see if I can get some discussion from the Pit boards since they have the match-up as 60:40 in their favor even though they agreed to 50:50 in the past.

 

[KirinBlaze]

<---- Has realized that Matchup discussion is complete bull**** usually and goes out the window when the Brawl starts.

It's really losing its purpose. It's just so that characters like Pit and Marth can flaunt their theory and have something to pull SBR's ear with when the next tier list comes around. Most of the boards don't even bother to retain objectivity ANYway. It's always-

"Mario's recovery is subpar"

"Mario has trouble killing"

"Mario can't approach, we swat away fireballs lololol"

If both sides don't try to keep an open mind, it becomes a tedious mudslinging fest.

Then is it safe to assume we can be accused of this with the Ness discussions? :\

 

[Judge Judy]

Then is it safe to assume we can be accused of this with the Ness discussions? :\

Mario's recovery is much safer than Ness's, no doubt about that.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Mario's recovery is much safer than Ness's, no doubt about that.

Now that I think about it..maybe we do have enough reason to boast a non-exsistant match up. Still, maybe we don't.