The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[mars16]

its almost impossible to be pimping a Git

Its more likely Pit Gimping Mario

I say

45:55 Pits Favor

Or 50:50

Why, Pits hard to gimp

Also I was wrong about his range, Mario has more range then Him

 

[Matt07]

Yes, Pit, I'm very certain has more range then us. However stutter stepped f-smash outranges everything he has. In the air, b-air outranges quite a few things too.

As for gimping him, a Pit will use their jumps very wisely, and most likely glide to land safely on stage (doesn't Pit have one of the fastest glide's?) always recover high and Pit will be safe.

It's kind of funny because like Mario, Pit is a jack of all trades. Except Pit does excel in quite a few more areas then Mario does, although not by a huge margin. I think this is an even match-up, just because of all the tools they have, like Mario, Pit has an answer to everything.

 

[Inferno3044]

Yes, Pit, I'm very certain has more range then us. However stutter stepped f-smash outranges everything he has. In the air, b-air outranges quite a few things too.

He actually doesn't outrange us by a lot. It's not a big enough range difference to be any sort of game changer.

As for gimping him, a Pit will use their jumps very wisely, and most likely glide to land safely on stage (doesn't Pit have one of the fastest glide's?) always recover high and Pit will be safe.

There's only 3 people that can glide. The fact that he can glide is a plus. Glide attack auto cancels btw.

It's kind of funny because like Mario, Pit is a jack of all trades. Except Pit does excel in quite a few more areas then Mario does, although not by a huge margin. I think this is an even match-up, just because of all the tools they have, like Mario, Pit has an answer to everything.

I agree with this a lot. There are some things that Mario has above Pit in general and some Pit have above Mario. For example, Pit's arrows can be more of a nuisance in brawl especially with most people's campy natures. It's an amazing projectile, one of the few I think are better than Mario's fireballs. Mario has better close range combat and has amazing edgeguarding abilities. The big problem is that these characters lose to high tier characters especially MK. They are both actually very solid characters, but since they lose to high tier characters, it holds them back.

 

[mars16]

Well from the sound

Pit and Mario everything to stand a chance against each other

I guess its 50:50 right

(Aco)

 

[Inferno3044]

I say even.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

^ i agree on wut he just said.

 

[mars16]

Well I guess thats it

I didn't think it would be an Even match

who's next?

 

[Calebyte]

While we're on the subject of kids with swords and bows, how about doing Toon Link next?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link is really annoying. He's like Pit in that he can camp a lot and do a lot of damage, except his roll is a LOT worse, but he has some pretty good approach options, in exchange for a sucky grab. Oh and he also kills at respectable percents.

I think Toon Link has the slight advantage in the matchup. Like 55/45. Mario can definitely beat him with good spacing and using tools to counter his camping and to gimp him, but TL I think has the advantage in damage dealing, and doesn't really suffer noticeably in KOs like Pit does.

 

[Big-Omar]

Lol, i was gone for awhile (like anyone noticed) and we're talking about pit? o_O
Ima go ahead and say 50:50

 

[Calebyte]

TL definitely outcamps Mario, imo. His boomerang is annoying, and once you're inside its arc he's got arrows or bombs to wreck the approach. When we get up close he can just b-air us. A good TL can control the stage pretty well.

Then again, Mario has the tools come out on top in this. I think. It's just really annoying. Advantage TL 55/45, I think.

 

[HeroMystic]

TL definitely outcamps Mario, imo. His boomerang is annoying, and once you're inside its arc he's got arrows or bombs to wreck the approach. When we get up close he can just b-air us. A good TL can control the stage pretty well.

FLUDD.

B-air's pretty meh.

 

[Big-Omar]

TL's bair is only good at low percents.

 

[mars16]

Yea I think He has the higher advantege

He wrecks aproach with his projectile, also he has a sword witch gives him more priority

Still Mario has more range and can reflect his Arrows and Boomarange

 

[Calebyte]

So Toon Link outcamps us, has good approach options, high priority attacks and can kill respectably.

What can Mario do to come out on top in this MU?

 

[HeroMystic]

So Toon Link outcamps us

FLUDD.

has good approach options

TL's bair is only good at low percents.

high priority attacks and can kill respectably.

>.>

What can Mario do to come out on top in this MU?

Learn the match-up for one thing. It's only 50/50. TL can't camp Mario and Mario's options are pretty large compared to TL.

 

[Matador]

Learn to powershield. TL is MUCH easier if you can powershield his projectiles to get closer. Also learn to take advantage of the ledge when he's trying to recover. If you can prevent him from tether recovering, he NEEDS to upB, and there are no invincibility frames during his upB, so you can probably trade hits with one of our aerials or sneak in a fireball. Cape also beats it of course.

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you guys this and it doesn't really pertain to the subject at hand, but caperape works in any direction. I accidentally killed my partner in doubles by caping him after he was hit by Snake's Ftilt. He died at like 50%(As Ganon) but he was hit at the opposite side of the stage(delfino) when he took the Ftilt.

It was a great "wtf?" moment.

 

[Calebyte]

>.>

Learn the match-up for one thing. It's only 50/50. TL can't camp Mario and Mario's options are pretty large compared to TL.

Hmm, legit advice!. Also, I think it applies not only to Toon Link, but to every other character in the game! If everyone would just learn all the match-ups, then we'd all be on top of Mario's metagame. We could do away with these long MU threads, and spout off default phrases like "Just FLUDD it" or "This MU is ##:##" without justification, specification, or giving general instructions for the Mario mains who may be less experienced.

Spoiler

Too subtle?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So Toon Link outcamps us, has good approach options, high priority attacks and can kill respectably.

What can Mario do to come out on top in this MU?

Mario's U-air juggles work very well on Toon Link once you start them from what I can tell. Mario also is very good at gimping Toon Link due to his recovery being predictable. His Up-B moves slowly, so there is a lot of stuff you can do to it on reaction.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Sorry Caleb, never played this matchup or I'd tell you. >_>

It's fairly easy to gimp him, though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hmm, legit advice!. Also, I think it applies not only to Toon Link, but to every other character in the game! If everyone would just learn all the match-ups, then we'd all be on top of Mario's metagame. We could do away with these long MU threads, and spout off default phrases like "Just FLUDD it" or "This MU is ##:##" without justification, specification, or giving general instructions for the Mario mains who may be less experienced.

The fact that I replied to your analysis a page before lead me to post the way I did.

If you want advice, take it for what it's worth. I'm not going to ramble on and on at how this and that works if it's already been stated.

You wanted to know how to deal with camping, I gave you an answer. Matador did too. You stated he has good approach options, in which Big-O already refuted. You said TL has high kill power, which I replied the way I did because it's completely false.

That's why I said learn the Match-up, because it's obvious you don't know it with how you posted as if you were stating facts.

Spoiler

Too subtle?

Spoiler

No, needed more humor though. =|

EDIT:

Here's one thing no one knows about however: Cape Jump wrecks TL's approaches.

 

[Matador]

Zair goes through cape doesn't it? A ToonLink that I play semi-regularly actually waits for cape and comes in with Zair to punish. Zair is also a combo starter, so it can be pretty devastating to be caught with your pants on the ground cape out.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wouldn't be surprised if it does. But if TL is trying to catch you with Cape out, then that means TL is outbaiting your bait because that's what CJ is mainly about. CJ shines at intercepting aerial attacks, which means B-air, N-air, yadda yadda.

Z-air beats Cape, but it shouldn't really matter much. Using Z-air, especially if not fastfalled, is punishable if Powershielded.

 

[Calebyte]

Listen HeroMystic, I'm here to learn. And you're right, you and some other people did provide answers...but I dunno, I'm not advanced enough for one-word or one-sentence replies to do a lot for me. Up till my question (about how Mario can come out on top) that's all that had been offered.

I was just trying to create a little more discussion by summarizing what I felt like had been said so far. (EDIT: and it worked). It kind of put me off how you just shut me down the way you did. I know it's important to learn on my own, but it's hard to do when (1) I don't have regular access to a TL main and (2) the previous MU thread discussed TL for less than 2 pages, the only substantial post coming from a TL main.

Also, apologies for the conflict, I didn't mean to come across as arrogant.

 

[Matador]

Wouldn't be surprised if it does. But if TL is trying to catch you with Cape out, then that means TL is outbaiting your bait because that's what CJ is mainly about. CJ shines at intercepting aerial attacks, which means B-air, N-air, yadda yadda.

Z-air beats Cape, but it shouldn't really matter much. Using Z-air, especially if not fastfalled, is punishable if Powershielded.

I meant during CJ though, like he'll toss his rang, I'll CJ, then he Zair's through and combos/kills me.

I figure it works most of the time, but powershield is best imo. ALL of his camping tools work like Mario's fireballs; they leave him painfully vulnerable if you powershield and approach. Fortunately, they all move pretty slow as well.

 

[HeroMystic]

Stuff.

Eh, that's all right. I also apologize for coming off rather cold. I dunno about your options, but you should try your best to get to Smashfests and perhaps play WiFi if there's no other option for you.

As for the FLUDD statement, FLUDD wrecks bombs (they go flying off the stage), and cancels out arrows. I forget if it detours the boomerang.

I meant during CJ though, like he'll toss his rang, I'll CJ, then he Zair's through and combos/kills me.

I figure it works most of the time, but powershield is best imo. ALL of his camping tools work like Mario's fireballs; they leave him painfully vulnerable if you powershield and approach. Fortunately, they all move pretty slow as well.

As for his boomerang, why would you CJ that?
How is he throwing it exactly? If he's in the air that's punishable with powershield (though you already know this.).

 

[Matt07]

I'm interested in this match-up. Last time I playing Toon Link I was getting wrecked pretty bad lol. Need to learn some stuff.

 

[Famous]

You can tell when a TL is going to use a Zair approach...I SH Air dodge towards them while they're doing this...I jab afterwards since Jab comes out the fastest...It works pretty well

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link is the best wifi character, so avoid him at all costs on wifi.

 

[Calebyte]

As for the FLUDD statement, FLUDD wrecks bombs (they go flying off the stage), and cancels out arrows. I forget if it detours the boomerang.

Cool! I can give that a shot. I've never really used FLUDD onstage, so it's something to work on at least. (btw, there's a lot of options for tournaments here. Next month I'm going to 3 straight! )

Toon Link is the best wifi character, so avoid him at all costs on wifi.

Yeah, I've been wrecked by wi-fi TLs.

 

[mars16]

Toon Link is the best wifi character, so avoid him at all costs on wifi.

The best Wifi Character!

I always thought it was Game & watch

 

[Big-Omar]

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you guys this and it doesn't really pertain to the subject at hand, but caperape works in any direction. I accidentally killed my partner in doubles by caping him after he was hit by Snake's Ftilt. He died at like 50%(As Ganon) but he was hit at the opposite side of the stage(delfino) when he took the Ftilt.

It was a great "wtf?" moment.

Hmmmm...

Toon Link Bomb -> Caperape anyone?

 

[Matador]

As for the FLUDD statement, FLUDD wrecks bombs (they go flying off the stage), and cancels out arrows. I forget if it detours the boomerang.

As for his boomerang, why would you CJ that?
How is he throwing it exactly? If he's in the air that's punishable with powershield (though you already know this.).

Fludd cancels Boomerang too iirc. I think the FIHL on Zair is punishable as well.

The Toonlink I play would sometimes SH -> Boomerang aimed toward the ground. If I CJ or simply cape, I'm vulnerable to zair depending on the spacing. So yeah, my point was more than powershielding is what I'd rely on to deal with TL's camping. Moreso than cape or fludd anyway since zair has some different physics.

Usmash is AMAZING in this match-up. So easy to get kills since he's always shorthopping everything...and he dies moderately early over the top.

 

[Big-Omar]

I use FLUDD a lot against TLs. Last time I remember, FLUDD does cancel boomerang.

Oh yea, sliding Usmash is gonna wreck TL lol

 

[vato_break]

fludd messes up his whole camp game and messes up his zair spacing, use it as much as you would vs peach nair also stops alot of projectiles too...personally i would use fludd to fend off his stuff more than i would use cape.

tl will only kill you with fair and upsmash

fsmash(di up and jump) and dsmash can be di'd out of

camp with fullhop fireballs since his camp game is VERY sh oriented

good stages to go are ones with platforms:lylat,battlefield

he's also bad on castle but, mario is too.

Ban bigs stages like FD


try staying mid-close range and try to aviod hi camping you hard...

 

[hippiedude92]

its alot better if u do walking in this matchup since your options are all open and easy access to and psing to your oos options are nice

dont attack TL if hes correctly set up, he has A TON OF WALL TRICKS, that make it hard for u to approach what not, but of course with marios options fludd/cape is easy stuff

becareful of his gay upsmash, if ur in the air, u should cape stall to bait out the upsmash since alot of TLs get kill happy with that move

should Mario go aggro or camping or aggro camping in this matchup?

 

[Big-Omar]

I personally think Mario should go aggro camping against TL. But that's just me.

 

[vato_break]

marios camping doesn't beat toon links so agressive camping is easily beat esppecially since tlink has a good zair

 

[A2ZOMG]

The best Wifi Character!

I always thought it was Game & watch

G&W is one of the worst wifi characters actually.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't care for wifi.