The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[LSDX]

Even I feel that hacks should not be used in the tournament setting. When I mean hacks I mean the no tripping code which I myself have used and tested via Homebrew/Ocarina. Mainly, it's up to the specific tournament host and anyone else competing in it.

 

[RDK]

Even I feel that hacks should not be used in the tournament setting. When I mean hacks I mean the no tripping code which I myself have used and tested via Homebrew/Ocarina. Mainly, it's up to the specific tournament host and anyone else competing in it.

But at that point you're altering the game itself, which should not be done at all if possible. Tripping, while royalling ****ing annoying, is a necessary evil. Hacking the game will bring in a whole new load of arguments about what's game-legal and what's not.

 

[LSDX]

I was saying they should "not" be enabled. I agree with your points saying they alter the game. So I am completely on your side.

 

[Ori_bro]

if MK was banned half the tourney players would go home

 

[Ballistaboy]

I don't think Metaknight or any other character should be banned.

He is the best and he is an uphill battle for most of the crew. I don't main him because for me i don't think he's fun to play (check out that scrub action, playing for fun? rofl.) I also have more fun beating a higher tier character than one that I use, being the underdog.

He is good, really good in fact, but he can be beaten and thats why he shouldn't be banned.

Idk if I would like a game perfectly balanced more than Brawl. There would be less depth and you would only use one character, no one would counterpick. But there would be less complaining, idk if it could be done without making the game really shallow.

 

[Doyoudigworms]

You obviously don't know the meaning of "competitive". Looking through Scar's thread would do you a world of good.

The fact is that in Brawl, the person who deserves to win does not always win. With things like tripping (and, to a further extent, items), a whole new level of randomness is introduced, and randomness is an anathema to competition.



Banning characters should not "never be allowed", although it should be scarce and only used when no other options are available. MK doesn't really fit the bill. It hasn't come to "choose MK or lose".

The reason why most of you aren't getting the point is that it requires a small bit of experience and understanding when it comes to actual competitive fighting games. It's obvious some of you have none.

Great post RDK, but I believe we are debating something we agree on. I think the cardinal rule is to not take away control from the player, and the fact tripping exists seriously hinders competitive play. But regardless of how "Officially" competitive the game is(from a tourney stand point) players share and seem to continue the SSBM legacy. Even if Brawl doesn't quite live up to conventional competition standards. I've read Scars thread a few times, and really agree with what was posted. I understand how competitive play works, and despite enjoying Smash competitively, I've played fighting games for many years in the tourney scene. Smash just happens to be my favorite. So I am not foreign to the tourney concept.

But what is a players true Achilles heel? The fact that they should be winning matches, but the players character is simply not good enough, or is it the players pride in anti-conformity?

If winning matches means playing top tier characters, someone just might have to do so. It's the nature of the game, and not to sound redundant, but simply put it's Survival of the fittest.

Regardless, good players are good players and it shows in how they play then rather who they play. Just sometimes who they play can make a world of difference. So if that means everyone plays Snake, Metaknight, D3, & Falco. Then so be it. It sucks, but it's not fighting game utopia, I wish I could have a fair match-up between Captain Falcon vs. Metaknight. Maybe next game.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Because you know it's true.
XD

No, because people like you can't be conviced that it's not true. People like you just join arguments like this blindly basically saying "MK is fail" without even looking, or being even willing to try and look, at the flip side of the coin.

 

[RDK]

Great post RDK, but I believe we are debating something we agree on. I think the cardinal rule is to not take away control from the player, and the fact tripping exists seriously hinders competitive play. But regardless of how "Officially" competitive the game is(from a tourney stand point) players share and seem to continue the SSBM legacy. Even if Brawl doesn't quite live up to conventional competition standards. I've read Scars thread a few times, and really agree with what was posted. I understand how competitive play works, and despite enjoying Smash competitively, I've played fighting games for many years in the tourney scene. Smash just happens to be my favorite. So I am not foreign to the tourney concept.

But what is a players true Achilles heel? The fact that they should be winning matches, but the players character is simply not good enough, or is it the players pride in anti-conformity?

If winning matches means playing top tier characters, someone just might have to do so. It's the nature of the game, and not to sound redundant, but simply put it's Survival of the fittest.

Regardless, good players are good players and it shows in how they play then rather who they play. Just sometimes who they play can make a world of difference. So if that means everyone plays Snake, Metaknight, D3, & Falco. Then so be it. It sucks, but it's not fighting game utopia, I wish I could have a fair match-up between Captain Falcon vs. Metaknight. Maybe next game.

I would tend to agree with you also. However, if the person has anti-conformist tendencies (which I myself struggle with; I'd rather not have to play as MK just to win) or other forms of scrubbery, then that person should probably not even be playing at all--or at least he should play as an inferior character and just not whine about it.

The concept of playing to win is what it all boils down to. Part of being a good player is knowing your matchups and choosing which characters to use accordingly. The point being, no matter how much I would like to just play Kirby, I have to be prepared for his unfavorable matchups and possibly use characters I would otherwise not use. Yes, it sucks, but that's just tough love. No game is truly balanced.

 

[Doyoudigworms]

I would tend to agree with you also. However, if the person has anti-conformist tendencies (which I myself struggle with; I'd rather not have to play as MK just to win) or other forms of scrubbery, then that person should probably not even be playing at all--or at least he should play as an inferior character and just not whine about it.

The concept of playing to win is what it all boils down to. Part of being a good player is knowing your matchups and choosing which characters to use accordingly. The point being, no matter how much I would like to just play Kirby, I have to be prepared for his unfavorable matchups and possibly use characters I would otherwise not use. Yes, it sucks, but that's just tough love. No game is truly balanced.

Agreed, I struggle with Lucas, day in and day out. I feel your pain. Sometimes it's just easier to use Snake. By no means does it mean a player using a lower tier is any less experienced. We just have to work twice as hard.

Glad to see something from other players perspectives.

But if the threads true question is to ban Metaknight because he has certain advantages over other players? Then I say no, unless he is truly game breaking. But I have yet to see that happen, and it's doubtful it ever will.

 

[Sky`]

Is this a srs thread?
Why bann a character, when the Disconnect from MK toward the others isn't That great?

 

[Xanthus]

Meta has one weakness. He trips :D

 

[yostuffstank]

playing as a super good char such as MK has social/reputational issues. if a MK plays against someone not so good (character, not player), then it is expected that the MK win. So the pressure is on (kinda). if the MK wins, it's whatever, nothing gained, nothing lost (reputation / pride - wise). but if the MK loses, it's a huge blow to the ego, and they will prolly be frowned upon. but this prolly doesn't matter to some ppl.

sorry if this has been said before.. i don't feel like reading all 46 pages.

 

[Revolutionary1804]

playing as a super good char such as MK has social/reputational issues. if a MK plays against someone not so good (character, not player), then it is expected that the MK win. So the pressure is on (kinda). if the MK wins, it's whatever, nothing gained, nothing lost (reputation / pride - wise). but if the MK loses, it's a huge blow to the ego, and they will prolly be frowned upon. but this prolly doesn't matter to some ppl.

sorry if this has been said before.. i don't feel like reading all 46 pages.

i just want to know what this has to do with anything??????

 

[Fatmanonice]

if you cant win vs a metaknight you might aswell not play.

instead of making jons about why you lose to him why dont you become better and beat him.

Comments like this absolutely drive me up a wall and are why I've stopped going to the Metaknight boards altogether. Metaknight is hard to beat for a vast majority of the cast and he's the best character in the game but, no, this guy talks about it like we're all failures who "just aren't trying hard enough." Metaknight is beatable but it is definately not a walk in the park especially if you're playing as someone who's middle tier or below.

For example, one of my mains is Mario. Despite what the matchup charts say, I can beat Marth, Mr. Game and Watch, Falco, Snake and even King Dedede with Mario but put me up against a good Metaknight and I'm pretty much guarenteed to lose. The matchs are usually close but the other people always finds a way to come out on top. Considering how the match up is supposed to be 80/20 in Metaknight favor, I think I've come a long way from when I used to have problems against Ike and Lucas (both match ups that are tilted in Marios favor).

Again, what really pisses me off about this issue is when people come in and say "oh well, Metaknight's not THAT good *insert weak reasons here*", "you just need to practice more", "lolwtfbbqobgyn Snake's soooooooo much better" or "you suck as a gamer if you have a hard time with Metaknight." People are trying, people are practicing but I think the main problem is that only the top of the top players are really getting anywhere when it comes to consistently being able to put down good Metaknights tournament after tournament. "They can do it and so can you, hyuk" is equivalent to telling a kid with asthma that he can become a marathon runner one day if he tries hard enough. *Warning: world shattering truth ahead* Most people don't have the talent potential to become on par, let alone as good, as most professional players.

Also, I also LOOOOOOVE the assumption that Metaknight players will remain stagnant while you are trying to get better with your character/s. What is this, an RPG? Metaknight's not a level 70 Mewtwo who just sits around and waits for you to beat the Elite Four several times so that you don't die after one hit from Psychic... Apparently, a lot of people believe this because I heard this all the time when I used to go to the Metaknight boards.

In the end, I really wish people would just tell it like it is:

1. Metaknight is the best character in the game.

2. He counters a vast majority of the cast. (Mr. Game and Watch, Snake, and himself seem to be the only exceptions with Snake being the only one that appears to have a slight advantage.)

3. Metaknight is hard for most of the cast to beat and retardedly hard for some.

4. Most people are trying very hard to come up with ways of overcoming this matchup for their respective characters.

Because I know at least one person is going to respond to this in a "lolpistachiopotato stfu scrub" manner, I will repeat that I do not support Metaknight being banned but it would be awesome if less people used him and if everyone and their grandma didn't switch to him whenever they hit a snag with their mains.

 

[LSDX]

Meta has one weakness. He trips :D

Very ture, harhar!

But in all seriousness, Metaknight is majority broken and should be "considered" being banned. I don't claim to have all smash knowledge or anything else close to being a scholar, but I'm just stating my opinion.

 

[Sky`]

Sorry Fatmanonice...

But honestly, the fact of the matter is, that you really do have to start playing better and trying harder if you are going to have a chance at beating a good meta. That's plain and simple. That's all it is.

It's going to be hard yeah, but you are going to have to bring your S game in order to have an equal chance against him. And that's just the way it is.

So the statement that makes you mad, is actually quite valid.

 

[LSDX]

Two words...

Solid, Snake...

 

[AlphaZealot]

Guys...its relatively simple: if your main is bad against MK, pick up a secondary for dealing with MK that doesn't have such an upwards battle. Suddenly, you can pick off the MK players and use your actual character against everyone else, pretty soon those MK players will have to use secondaries for their bad match ups, and viola, lots of variety.

 

[Doggalina]

Guys...its relatively simple: if your main is bad against MK, pick up a secondary for dealing with MK that doesn't have such an upwards battle. Suddenly, you can pick off the MK players and use your actual character against everyone else, pretty soon those MK players will have to use secondaries for their bad match ups, and viola, lots of variety.

However, the only way to truly 100% avoid Meta with a main that's bad against him is to only use that main as a CP when you know your opponent won't use Meta.

Or everybody could just second Meta. Problem solved.

 

[Sky`]

Hey Alpha Zealot, Did you know that 2 years ago, a Big black guy named Sky played you at MLG NJ, And you beat me with one hand with your peach? Additionally, we talked for like 20 mins just about melee, and it was pretty cool.

But you don't remember. <3

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Guys...its relatively simple: if your main is bad against MK, pick up a secondary for dealing with MK that doesn't have such an upwards battle. Suddenly, you can pick off the MK players and use your actual character against everyone else, pretty soon those MK players will have to use secondaries for their bad match ups, and viola, lots of variety.

That doesn't cover the primary reasons people pick MK. I'm starting to second him myself because he has a lot of good matchups against my main's weaknesses.

 

[RDK]

However, the only way to truly 100% avoid Meta with a main that's bad against him is to only use that main as a CP when you know your opponent won't use Meta.

Or everybody could just second Meta. Problem solved.

The only problem is when you end up playing more as your counter for MK then you do your actual main. Which sucks.

But AZ brings up a valid point. If you're having trouble with MK, just secondary him as a safety, or at least know how to play him really well.

 

[MarKO X]

Guys...its relatively simple: if your main is bad against MK, pick up a secondary for dealing with MK that doesn't have such an upwards battle. Suddenly, you can pick off the MK players and use your actual character against everyone else, pretty soon those MK players will have to use secondaries for their bad match ups, and viola, lots of variety.

A few flaws with this logic:

1) what if the 2ndary is Meta?
2) how many 2ndaries can actually go up against MK? What, five? Six?
3) What if ur 2ndary doesn't do well against MK either?

However, the magic of this logic:

1) If MKs end up getting their ***** kicked, it's probably because MK wasn't their choice of heart and then they'll switch to a main that's not so dominating.
2) If MK gets beaten like such, it'll help the Brawl metagame big time.

High risk, high reward... maybe.

 

[LSDX]

Mainly the reason people pick Metaknight is either one of three reasons:

1. They are beginners and want to become good at the game, so they pick up the best "pick up and play" character.

2. They are Tourney Tards who want to be the best at tournaments and think they will always win.

3. They actually like him as a character and enjoy playing as him because of that reason.

 

[ShadowLink84]

All right I had been curious about people's opinions on hacks since i hadn't seen much of an opposition in other topics.

 

[Doggalina]

Mainly the reason people pick Metaknight is either one of three reasons:

1. They are beginners and want to become good at the game, so they pick up the best "pick up and play" character.

2. They are Tourney Tards who want to be the best at tournaments and think they will always win.

3. They actually like him as a character and enjoy playing as him because of that reason.

All three of those reasons are valid. No one is better than another. Honor is imaginary.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Guys...its relatively simple: if your main is bad against MK, pick up a secondary for dealing with MK that doesn't have such an upwards battle. Suddenly, you can pick off the MK players and use your actual character against everyone else, pretty soon those MK players will have to use secondaries for their bad match ups, and viola, lots of variety.

Been there, done that. I have three mains (Mario, Ness, and Wario) and three secondaries (Ice Climbers, Fox, and King Dedede). My secondaries were mainly chosen to deal with Metaknight, King Dedede, and Snake. Also, Metaknight doesn't really have any "bad matchups". He has just Snake which is probably 60/40 in Snake's favor. Sorry to be such a whiner but I don't really care for Snake's playstyle and I don't regularly play as characters I don't have fun playing as, call me crazy.

Sorry Fatmanonice...

But honestly, the fact of the matter is, that you really do have to start playing better and trying harder if you are going to have a chance at beating a good meta. That's plain and simple. That's all it is.

It's going to be hard yeah, but you are going to have to bring your S game in order to have an equal chance against him. And that's just the way it is.

So the statement that makes you mad, is actually quite valid.

Again, you talk about Metaknight as if he's some boss character who will fight you the exact same way whether you're level 30 or level 100. I have progressed a lot against Metaknight but if you think I'm going to magically start beating good Metaknight left and right with Mario and Ness then you're off your nut. Also, it would be foolish to assume that good Metaknights will continue to use the same strategies so that adds an even bigger mountain to climb. I'll start to win against them eventually but if someone like Boss usually lands in 5th-8th despite his best efforts, I can't really expect to find a way to beat Metaknight a large percentage of the time.

 

[MarKO X]

All three of those reasons are valid. No one is better than another. Honor is imaginary.

No, honor exists. Just not in competitive gaming.

 

[Sky`]

I really do see Metaknight as a boss character when I fight him.

When I fight snake... Well IMO Peach > Snake. =D

But when I see Metaknight, I just assume that this is going to be one tough battle. There is no "Metagame" against him. There is no Definite way to approach him. You really just have to start feeding of mistakes. Metaknight has little to no weaknesses.

And Metaknights will continue to use the basic, Shuttle hoop Gimp and the Tornado. I: think we can agree on that. Also, It doesn't matter what the metaknight changes, his moves remain amazing in priority and speed, so no matter how they change it up, it's still going to give the same base results.

We as a whole community need to find away against the character himself, not the way people play.

 

[Jack Kieser]

No, honor exists. Just not in competitive gaming.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but honor hasn't existed in the real world (gaming or not) for a while now. 'All is fair in love and war' has been expanded to 'All is fair, period'.

 

[RDK]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but honor hasn't existed in the real world (gaming or not) for a while now. 'All is fair in love and war' has been expanded to 'All is fair, period'.

Natural selection. Survival of the fittest. Basically the prime directive when it comes to competitive video gaming. Also why people get laughed at and called scrubs for saying things are "cheap" when those tactics are invariably available to everyone.

IMO it's too early to ban MK. Maybe if he stays top teir for a long time he could be banned. But like snake, he was good from the start and was considered unbeatable. Now people have kinda found ways around him. Meh.

Snake was never considered unbeatable; I can guarantee you that nobody of good social standing in the competitive community ever believed Snake was "unbeatable". And also, it was pretty much agreed that MK was just as good as, if not better, than Snake.

 

[Dxt XXII]

IMO it's too early to ban MK. Maybe if he stays top tier for a long time he could be banned. But like snake, he was good from the start and was considered unbeatable. Now people have kinda found ways around snake. Meh.

 

[ShadowLink84]

God help the poster above me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I really do see Metaknight as a boss character when I fight him.

When I fight snake... Well IMO Peach > Snake. =D

But when I see Metaknight, I just assume that this is going to be one tough battle. There is no "Metagame" against him. There is no Definite way to approach him. You really just have to start feeding of mistakes. Metaknight has little to no weaknesses.

And Metaknights will continue to use the basic, Shuttle hoop Gimp and the Tornado. I: think we can agree on that. Also, It doesn't matter what the metaknight changes, his moves remain amazing in priority and speed, so no matter how they change it up, it's still going to give the same base results.

We as a whole community need to find away against the character himself, not the way people play.

You assume and there inlies the problem. That's like assuming that all Wolf players will just spam the lazer and fsmash, Kirby players will try to Kirby-cide you at least once during the match, and all Ike players main killing move will be ftilt. I don't think it's ever safe to assume anything unless you're really familar with the person you're playing against. Sure, you can expect things but that doesn't automatically mean they will happen. For example, I when I'm training against other people and trying to help them improve and I'm using Metaknight, I will usually use Metaknight's tornado to recover. Now, I know that definately isn't the standard when it comes to Metaknight and my opponents usually act really surprized when I do it. This is probably because a majority of people assume that I will always the shuttle loop. I can also say the same thing about Mario's FLUDD because I usually use it more to stop attacks than for gimping.

 

[ImLuigi]

It seems pointless to ban MK. Sure he has incredible spped and combos well but he has horrible knock back. Just to guarentee a KO MK has to get the character past 100% and he doesn't deal good damage with individual attacks.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The majority of characters in the game need to push the opponent past 100% to get a kill.

He racks up damage through combos to make up for it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Not to mention that he can reasonably gimp more than half of the cast at like 60-70%...

 

[Doggalina]

It seems pointless to ban MK. Sure he has incredible spped and combos well but he has horrible knock back. Just to guarentee a KO MK has to get the character past 100% and he doesn't deal good damage with individual attacks.

Besides the knee and PWNCH, Falcon has to get people above 100% to outright kill them, too. I have hard data to back that up. Also, with MK's unprecendented edgeguarding ability, sometimes he just needs to get the opponent off the stage to kill him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK;

Dthrow~dash attack~fair.

dair when they are off stage.
harass with Uair and ^B when they are above.


I are MK hear me um... grunt?

 

[Fatmanonice]

MK;

Dthrow~dash attack~fair.

dair when they are off stage.
harass with Uair and ^B when they are above.


I are MK hear me um... grunt?

Don't forget tornado, drill, and dsmash too... God I hate his dsmash...