The MK Legal Ruleset Discussion

[Sorto]

Enough People Are Against the Meta Knight Ban That I Felt This Would Be a Valid Thread To Make

Describe a Ruleset That You Would Like To See In a Meta Knight Legal Metagame

The rules that you would like to see enacted should be fair and are not focused only around Meta Knight, but also around having a fair and competitive metagame.

If you would agree to an Meta Knight legal ruleset, then what changes (if any) would you wish to see to the following criteria?

Legal Stages:
Ledge Grab Limits:
Timers:
Counter Picking Changes:
Time-out Rules:
Tripping Codes:
Number of Stocks:
Other Ideas for Ruleset changes:

*Starting with the URC ruleset as a base.

DO NOT BAN ANY CHARACTERS IN YOUR RULESET SUGGESTIONS.

Please also put your experience in terms of top level play, tournament hosting, or other experience you may have. It does not need to be descriptive, but more to explain your general involvement in the game and the community.

** This thread is not to discuss whether mk should be legal or not. This thread is to discuss the ruleset changes people would like to see in a ruleset that has Meta Knight as a legal playable character.

 

[ElDominio]

Enough People Are Against the MK ban that I Felt this would be a Valid Topic

If you would agree to an MK legal metagame, then what changes would you wish to see to the following criteria (if any)?

Legal Stages:
Ledge Grab Limits:
Timers:
Time-out Rules:
Tripping Codes:
Number of Stocks:
Other Ideas for Ruleset changes:

*Starting with the URC ruleset as a base.

Please also put your experience in terms of top level play, tournament hosting, or other experience you may have. It does not need to be descriptive, but more to explain your general involvement in the game and the community.

** This topic is not to discussing whether mk should be legal or not. This topic is to discuss the ruleset changes people would like to see in a ruleset that would have MK as a legal playable character.

Are tripping codes really necessary to have this ruleset?

I'd say 25 LGL (gah i hate LGLs), no RC/Brinstar.
Everything else the same

 

[Sorto]

Are tripping codes really necessary to have this ruleset?

I'd say 25 LGL (gah i hate LGLs), no RC/Brinstar.
Everything else the same

I am saying that any ideas are welcome. This is to have a fairer ruleset in total. Not just because mk is legal.

 

[WindMajor]

No LGL, more stages legal, everything else the same.

An MK player's dream.

 

[Mew2King]

I've said this for more than 2 years but

-no Rainbow/Brinstar
-30 LGL
-10 min timer (will NOT extend tournaments. For those who haven't read the millions of times I've explained this, I can gladly explain it again).

Basically though, imagine these 2 scenarios.

scenario 1: there's 1 min left on the timer, in a very close game. Winning by timeout is very likely to be possible, so they will probably GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO WIN BY TIMEOUT, extending tournament matches since people's motives will be to run the clock if they are winning since it will not be very hard to do.

scenario 2: there's 3 min left on the timer, in a very close game. Running the clock will be hard to do in this scenario. Trying to win by running away and stalling for time becomes ineffective and pointless since it becomes considerably harder to do than in scenario 1.

It's not an end-all solution, however, there is one thing that this is, and that is a BIG IMPROVEMENT. Japan also uses this timer.

 

[ElDominio]

I've said this for more than 2 years but

-no Rainbow/Brinstar
-30 LGL
-10 min timer (will NOT extend tournaments. For those who haven't read the millions of times I've explained this, I can gladly explain it again).

Basically though, imagine these 2 scenarios.

scenario 1: there's 1 min left on the timer, in a very close game. Winning by timeout is very likely to be possible, so they will probably GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO WIN BY TIMEOUT, extending tournament matches since people's motives will be to run the clock if they are winning since it will not be very hard to do.

scenario 2: there's 3 min left on the timer, in a very close game. Running the clock will be hard to do in this scenario. Trying to win by running away and stalling for time becomes ineffective and pointless since it becomes considerably harder to do than in scenario 1.

It's not an end-all solution, however, there is one thing that this is, and that is a BIG IMPROVEMENT. Japan also uses this timer.

Lord in heaven what a hideous avatar

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is that like... Aphex twin or something?

Also, just copy the German BBR Recommended ruleset and boom–you're done. MK-legal ruleset. Or hell, the APEX one, just add PS2. 1-2 more minutes might be a good plan too.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

9 min 35 LGL for all characters

You can also create a LGL based off of how many jumps a character has (take away 5 for every additional mid air jump they have)

 

[Sorto]

My Thoughts:
No rc/ no brinstar, perhaps look into the validity of currently banned stages

Lgl of 30 or less

Longer timer, greater then 9 minutes

I thought anti tripping code would be nice

Always thought that if the lgl was passed even in the event of a non timeout situation that something should happen. Perhaps force an overtime situation or something.

Just tossing out a few ideas

 

[SaveMeJebus]

you could also lower the stocks to two and leave the timer at eight

 

[Sorto]

How do you create a poll?
I wanna make a stage legality poll for rc, brinstar

And a timer change/stock change poll



Does anyone have a better title for this discussion btw? Lol. Something that rolls off the tongue a lil better.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't mean to sound elitist, but there really shouldn't be a poll. Too many people screw up polls with wanting self-benefit. I think you should just make it 10 minutes regardless, and removing RC and Brinstar too.

And there is no reason Brawl should be 8 minutes when that is what Melee is. Melee matches take half the time. It was used as the standard a LONG time ago when brawl just came out because they thought it was the safe thing to do, but the people who voted to ban MK in BBR (who also voted AGAINST any ruleset changes to make the game more fair, balanced, and just better overall) kept voting against that **** so I could never get enough dumb VOTES to change the rule. I wish people would just trust me. I don't like the democracy way because that would screw it up and the most fair thing wouldn't necessarily happen.

there is too much luck in a low stock game. I really do not like 1 or 2 stock games at all. I feel like there is just too much luck involved. A chain grab or trip could cost you the match and potentially the set fairly easily with low chance of comeback comparatively, but it wouldn't have nearly as big of a factor when you have 3 stocks instead of 1 or 2. Should you do something risky and suicide, the match is pretty much over, with low chance of a skillful comeback to make up for it. 3 stock 10 minutes is the best. I'm actually leaning towards 12 minutes, but let's start at 10 like Japan uses.

 

[Raziek]

I don't mean to sound elitist, but there really shouldn't be a poll. Too many people screw up polls with wanting self-benefit. I think you should just make it 10 minutes regardless, and removing RC and Brinstar too.

THE IRONY. IT BURNNNSSssss.

 

[B.A.M.]

THE IRONY. IT BURNNNSSssss.

It would burn if his post wasnt based in reason and not of numbers that people cant even decipher correctly. OH WAIT

 

[Sorto]

@m2k see your point on the poll. And agree with you on stock and timer. I used to play ic. Half your stocks lost cause of a mistake def seems harsh. I like the increased timer. And 12 does sound better but I agree its too large of a change to implement right away.

 

[Sorto]

Does anyone feel lgl should be taken into account if it does not go to over time. Like could there be an lgl for overtime and a larger lgl for non overtime. The thing is no one really keeps count of there opponents ledge grabs. You might feel forced to approach fearing they didn't pass 30. Should there be a number like 50. Or perhaps even the same 30. That if the opponent passed this then even if the match didn't time out that they still lose. Just an idea im throwing out.

 

[Raziek]

It would burn if his post wasnt based in reason and not of numbers that people cant even decipher correctly. OH WAIT

Do all these things to make my character legal! But don't hold a poll, too many people want things done for self benefit!

 

[Sorto]

Do all these things to make my character legal! But don't hold a poll, too many people want things done for self benefit!

Do you have any constructive ruleset ideas (that include mk being legal)? Because that's really the purpose of this thread. Thank you in advance for any input you may have.

 

[hichez50]

there is too much luck in a low stock game. I really do not like 1 or 2 stock games at all. I feel like there is just too much luck involved. A chain grab or trip could cost you the match and potentially the set fairly easily with low chance of comeback comparatively, but it wouldn't have nearly as big of a factor when you have 3 stocks instead of 1 or 2. Should you do something risky and suicide, the match is pretty much over, with low chance of a skillful comeback to make up for it. 3 stock 10 minutes is the best. I'm actually leaning towards 12 minutes, but let's start at 10 like Japan uses.

Why are you getting grabbed in the first place? That is your fault. And tripping is a legitimate issue, but at the end of the day you should still win the other 2 games if you were truly good enough right? idk that can always be debated. You also are saying that comebacks should stay at the same difficulty. There is nothing wrong with making a comeback harder to perform. How often do you think these lucky situations will happen?

@m2k see your point on the poll. And agree with you on stock and timer. I used to play ic. Half your stocks lost cause of a mistake def seems harsh. I like the increased timer. And 12 does sound better but I agree its too large of a change to implement right away.

Mistakes should be punished harshly. If they are I bet you will make less of them if you really want to be good.

Decreasing the stock count should defiantly be experimented more with.

 

[B.A.M.]

Do all these things to fix a terrible rule set! But don't hold a poll, too many people want things done for self benefit!

Fix'd. Just for you.

Wait arent u the marth that got trashed by Ike for no reason and failed hard at a simple recovery?

 

[Raziek]

Do you have any constructive ruleset ideas (that include mk being legal)? Because that's really the purpose of this thread. Thank you in advance for any input you may have.

No, I'm just here to point out massive hypocrisy among the mentality of some of the anti-ban players, while I enjoy my MK-banned liberal ruleset.

 

[B.A.M.]

And you are failing because this is about a MK legal rule set. Why would he change the rules to make his character legal when it already is in this ideal ruleset? Good luck enjoying your liberal rule set filled with stages that impede heavily on the crux of a fighter i.e opponent a vs opponent b.

BUT NO IT CANT BE TRUE!

 

[Sorto]

Discuss ruleset changes only please. Not just random arguments. Please and thank you.

 

[Sorto]

Why are you getting grabbed in the first place? That is your fault. And tripping is a legitimate issue, but at the end of the day you should still win the other 2 games if you were truly good enough right? idk that can always be debated. You also are saying that comebacks should stay at the same difficulty. There is nothing wrong with making a comeback harder to perform. How often do you think these lucky situations will happen?


Mistakes should be punished harshly. If they are I bet you will make less of them if you really want to be good.

Decreasing the stock count should defiantly be experimented more with.

Completely valid points. Which do you prefer if I may ask. Extended time limit or less stocks? Or perhaps some other variation?

 

[Tesh]

Raziek go away and let them have their thread for this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310261

Thats my take on the situation. Crisp and clean. No unfair changes to the rest of the cast with universal ruleset changes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Raziek go away and let them have their thread for this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310261

Thats my take on the situation. Crisp and clean. No unfair changes to the rest of the cast with universal ruleset changes.

Even though I think it's dumb, a better Idea would have been to change their c-stick to anything but attack or smash. you can't perfectly plank without the c-stick set to attack or smash and you also can't infinite dementional cape

 

[Mithost]

Timeout rule changes need to be done so MK (or any other character) cannot attempt a win by timeout, and the time limit should be lowered so players can't plank/camp until they feel like approaching.

 

[Sorto]

Infinite dimensional cape is banned to begin with. So no need to make it impossible to do.

Also, mks planking is more powerful then any of his b moves, right? His planking is his true problem I thought. He is not overpowered offensively, but just to good at running the clock? Isn't that the case?

Running the clock aka sudo stalling?

 

[Ussi]

a ban on his B moves remove the two moves we hate most, tornado and shuttle loop.

His B moves make his planking too strong with the insane mix ups.

 

[Sorto]

a ban on his B moves remove the two moves we hate most, tornado and shuttle loop.

His B moves make his planking too strong with the insane mix ups.

It is not about what is HATED. It is about what is UNFAIR.

Give me figures that say any of his B moves are unfair and that will be usable. Planking data shows that MKs plank is unfair frame wise (I believe it does at least).

 

[Kaffei]

Ban Brinstar/RC
25 LGL

That's all I wanna see

 

[Ussi]

Okai listen to this:

Banning his specials is doable via control scheme. Banning planking is NOT.

 

[Tesh]

What is to be done about scrooging? Kind of breaks risk/reward on multiple stages and really gets around LGL alot.

 

[Sorto]

Okai listen to this:

Banning his specials is doable via control scheme. Banning planking is NOT.

Planking cant be outright banned but it can be limited by creating a ledge grab limit. If he cant grab the ledge more then 25 times for example how will he plank you after he grabs the ledge 25 times?

 

[Ussi]

what makes 25 ledge grabs the right amount?

 

[Sorto]

what makes 25 ledge grabs the right amount?

I said for example in my previous post. I don't know the right amount. That's why I put up this discussion. No one knows the right amount, but the current amount is too high, as planking seems very used. So the right amount must be lower than the current value.

Also, since there is no known valid way to test how many ledgegrabs is fair. Choosing an arbitrary smaller voted on amount is the only reasonable choice.

 

[Ussi]

How many top level matches go to time that a LGL will change anything?

 

[Sorto]

If a lower ledge grab limit exists and is passed. Or assumed to be passed. The non planking character can try to force it to go to time. This will force the planking character to approach. Approaching in brawl is generally bad. There fore it limits plankers because they can force them self into a bad position. This takes away from the low risk high reward because it forces a high risk situation if they go past 25.

It allows less planking per minute and forces the planker to fight in a non planking way. This severly limits his stalling ability.

 

[Ussi]

planking isn't the only way MK stalls, there's air/platform camping too.

 

[Sorto]

True. And limiting those could prove useful as well. This is where an increased timer comes into play, forcing mk and other flying characters to have to land more. Stalling is banned under all smash rulesets. No characters should be allowed to stall. But planking seems to be the most damaging stallish tactic mk has. Metaknight has the best plank game. But air camping he is more or less matched by kirby, jiggs, pit. Yet none of those characters are nearly as dominant. No character can match mks plank game atm and that seems like the first task to limit. But stalling should be banned and tactics that aim to abuse stalling should be banned/ limited.

Peach can infinitely bomb against a wall in melee. That tactic is banned even tho she can be hit out of it and many characters can even make it back to the stage after doing so. It is just that it is very risky and difficult to attack a peach in that position. And like planking and air camping it is mainly used as a means of running the clock.