The need for a Sub-Forum for Item Play (edited title)

[MorpheusVGX]

I've seen people say that this community is for "competitive smashers", by whom they refer to people who play 1 vs 1, no items, some stages only.
That's not it. This Community/Forum as I see it, is about Smash players. Then, there people who enjoy FFA item matches, much more than 1 vs 1, no items. (We won't talk about stages, for now).
When I go to a sub-forum to discuss about tactics, characters, and look for media about matches, tournaments, etc. There is no "division" for me to look where I know I can find stuff about item Play, or where I can meet with these other smashers. It's all mixed up. There is no division for Item tournaments, Item tactics, Item players. It is as if we didn't have a division for every character, it would be hard to find stuff about each one. To me , and many others, this is true about item play, which we think is diverse and fun. There are competitive item players; don't you ever doubt that.

 

[Yuna]

Make threads in the appropriate forum sections asking for like-minded people. And the reason why there are so few matches advertised in the Video Section with items on is because the players who record matches and then upload them onto Youtube or whatever and then advertise about them in that section usually don't play with items on.

It's not our fault if so few item-players record vids.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

lol @ competitive item players.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[-Linko-]

Tournament Discussion/Jack Kieser's ISP official thread

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'll have to record items matches for you. I play with them occasionally.

I already record lots of matches on stages other than FD, Battlefield, and the like... I just avoid stages which would be dominated by cheap and non entertaining crap like Dedede infinites, and a single laser winning the match (due to timeout).

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I know there are not a lot of vids. That's why is difficult to find them all mixed up. Thanks for the tournament sections. But is not all about tournament. It is about tactics, friendly matches and some other stuff.
There was a very interesting tournament called POS Brawl Tournament. 5 stock, all items, all stages. It was enjoyable to watch.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7UU2eWZIVQ4

I found nothing about it on these forums. I guess I will have to support it ^^

P.D. ISP = Item Standard Play. Hmm.. those are just a couple of items. There are no smash balls, pokemons or assist trophies. Not fun.

 

[gocubs12345]

Online Brawl Community plays with items,



sometimes

 

[Tyr_03]

Record your own with items and make your own thread devoted to videos of "competitive" item matches. Heck you can even talk about item "tactics" if you want. It's a forum.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Well, usually I'd talk about tactics not related to items mostly to compare differences between what the actual character could do, and because most tournaments don't use items. Any character can pick up dragoon parts, a pokeball, or assist trophy and it'll do the same thing regardless of what character used the item. Characters who could use general throwing items like green shells and Mr saturn best are usually ones that could generate items and item like objects with their moveset. (Like Peach, who could use all her aerials without throwing the item) Heavy characters like Dedede use the metal box better than anyone else.

 

[Roller]

lol @ competitive item players.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

LOL. same here.

 

[Taymond]

P.D. ISP = Item Standard Play. Hmm.. those are just a couple of items. There are no smash balls, pokemons or assist trophies. Not fun.

That's because, like you said, ISP is a tournament standard in development. It's not exactly the non-tournament friendlies with items on section you're looking for. Jack has limited the items because he realizes that there are many, many items that disrupt far too much the test of skill that a tournament attempts to be.

He's building a tournament-viable standard for Item Use, and he knows that certain things, like FS, certainly do not belong in tournaments.

 

[Roller]

Shouldn't be in tournies...period.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

The same old discussion. There are and there could be more tournaments with items. To say that item play is not competitive is just stubborness. This thread is not about discussing that. So those who come here to joke about item play are going to feel my wrath.
They then say that we want to change their rules, etc. While we encourage other types of competition they come and laugh and criticize. Cut it of you fools.

 

[Taymond]

I'm not trying to criticize. I'm just telling you what the situation was. The reason you didn't find the full-item list you wanted in the ISP is because Jack agrees that certain items need to be turned off to have a somewhat fair comparison of player skill.

You don't have to agree with that, though, that's fine. There just isn't anyone actively working to organize full-item tournaments right now, or to develop some sort of full-item standard for competition, as far as I know. Plenty of small, local, and what some of us might call "casual" tournaments play with everything on, or at least all items. There's just not a high level of organization at an administrative level, so it might be harder to find those tournaments.

I don't feel that items belong in tournaments, no, but that's just my opinion. You don't have to agree, but I still get to say it, so don't freak out when I do.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Ok. I appreciate your kind response. You don't feel they belong in tournaments. I say they can be in another kind of tournament. Competitive in its own way. Let's not discuss that on this topic. I posted this because item play material is hard to find. If I wanted to find stuff about Diddy, I can on the Diddy section. Where Diddy players gather, for example. But, If I wanted to find stuff and people that prefer all-item play , there is no sub-forum for that. It is all spread in little pieces. To me, the liking for all item play make players so different from the non-item players that there should be some division on the forums too. That's what I think and request.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

Ok. I appreciate your kind response. You don't feel they belong in tournaments. I say they can be in another kind of tournament. Competitive in its own way. Let's not discuss that on this topic. I posted this because item play material is hard to find. If I wanted to find stuff about Diddy, I can on the Diddy section. Where Diddy players gather, for example. But, If I wanted to find stuff and people that prefer all-item play , there is no sub-forum for that. It is all spread in little pieces. To me, the liking for all item play make players so different from the non-item players that there should be some division on the forums too. That's what I think and request.

That's actually a very reasonable request, but the only way you'll be able to get this to happen is to discuss it with a mod. Considering the number of people who are similar to you (judging by the always constant "Why is there no items in the competitive standard?" debates) it makes sense to have a forum for that mindset.

The best temporary solution to the problem (as I doubt a mod will respond to you as quickly as most forum-goers will, if at all), as others have stated, is to simply create a thread for the "all-item tournament" idea, and invite others to create rulesets and set up tournaments. I suggest putting up a list of videos to display examples of these tournaments, and will further entice those who want to play this way.

 

[FalconPunch]

The same old discussion. There are and there could be more tournaments with items. To say that item play is not competitive is just stubborness. This thread is not about discussing that. So those who come here to joke about item play are going to feel my wrath.
They then say that we want to change their rules, etc. While we encourage other types of competition they come and laugh and criticize. Cut it of you fools.

Item play is for people not skilled enough to use their characters potential. Get at me.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Item play is for people not skilled enough to use their characters potential. Get at me.

Ha ha,.. bas_tard. Let's answer this: Item play involves high character potential and even much more. Item play complexity probably scares you. Deep inside you know that a player with less skill could defeat you with some luck. You are afraid. Deep inside you know that to dominate you have to be much more skilled than him. If you loose you would probably cry : I hate items! , like sore losers do ".

P.D: Let us not continue this please. This topic is not to discuss this. It is just that you wanted a piece of me. Everything is ok.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

That's actually a very reasonable request, but the only way you'll be able to get this to happen is to discuss it with a mod. Considering the number of people who are similar to you (judging by the always constant "Why is there no items in the competitive standard?" debates) it makes sense to have a forum for that mindset.

The best temporary solution to the problem (as I doubt a mod will respond to you as quickly as most forum-goers will, if at all), as others have stated, is to simply create a thread for the "all-item tournament" idea, and invite others to create rulesets and set up tournaments. I suggest putting up a list of videos to display examples of these tournaments, and will further entice those who want to play this way.

Yeap, you are right. I hope mods consider this a little. Meanwhile I will have to create threads as a sub-forum. And support item tournaments . :

 

[FalconPunch]

I was just seeing if that was an empty threat. You handled it very well.

 

[Taymond]

First, I agree that this is a reasonable request, though I'm sure mods have probably already considered it and, for some reason, decided against it for now, at least. I don't presume to tell mods how to do their jobs, so if this has been discussed before, maybe one of them could let us know any reasons against it they had.

Second, it's presumptuous and rude to claim that item play invariably involves a higher level of skill than the competitive standard. While there's no disagreeing that it takes skill to know how to use items, that argument ignores the "skill" that gets disrupted by randomness, or how characters with innate projectiles lose a balancing edge against characters without, in general.

It's an incredibly fallacy to assume standard competitive players are incapable of playing with items. It's downright absurd. The idea that competitive players break down when every variable is not in direct control is not only wildly incorrect, but also insulting. We just prefer to have as many variables in direct control as possible. We feel that is richer gameplay.

Juvenile insults and outlandish assumptions do not make your completely valid original point look better. They make you, and by association it, look worse. You don't have to respond to mindless negative posts, and you certainly don't need to respond to them with posts as intellectually vacant and overzealous as those you're responding to. Calm, civil responses will get you taken more seriously than responding to attacks with your own attacks.

Anyway, maybe Panda or Mic could lend an opinion on an Item Play forum, if they see this thread?

 

[Tyr_03]

I kind of think the reason there isn't a sub-forum for this is because you appear to be in the minority in your choice of competitive play. I'm sure there are some who agree with you but there certainly don't appear to be many (atleast posting a whole lot on swf.) Just a thought.

 

[Yuna]

There is absolutely no reason to create even more sub-sections. What's next? Final Smash subsections because Final Smashes aren't "really" items?

How about Special Brawl sub-sections? Training Mode sub-sections? 2v2 sub-section? An FFA-sub section?

Where in the world would it end? If you want something specific, search harder. Don't demand it be made easier for you. Especially not when it'd create tons of hard work, clutter the forums up and generally open up the flood gates for more stupidity (more sections).

You like items, go create threads about them. Like, say, a thread in Brawl Discussion asking for links to videos with items in them.

 

[Vyse]

I don't know if it has been said yet, but it's quite simple.
FYI, in the beginning of Melee, there was an Item Ruleset and Banlist, but people got really bored of it/didn't like it/never used items in the first place and so item play eventually became completely phased out. Which would make a subforum redundant if it were made.

Perhaps this would be a more important point of discussion when we start seeing major names and tournaments endorsing item play (And if they already are, then excuse me : P )

I was about to write a big objection to item play, but this isn't the thread for it.

EDIT: Plus I listen to Yuna. You should all listen to someone with 5k posts.

 

[Shining Blitz]

I agree, we need a Items Sub-forum. Even Brawlcentral has one. Smashboards is supposedan to be the definitive Smash resource, but we lack a forum for one of the most unique components of Smash. With ISP being developed, this is even more important! WE NEED AN ITEMS SUB-FORUM!

 

[FalconPunch]

And yet, not really.

 

[falcon_for_life_and_for_smash]

do you speak greek?

 

[cobaltblue]

I second TC. This thread alone proves why a forum is needed.

How can series item play be discussed when as soon as one person makes a comment some other smart *** says "lol items are for nubz" or some other bs? And Yuna how is more sub forums a bad thing if it gets newbies out of the general/main ones asking about item play? As it stands now general is simply flooded with crap about why brawl sucks/rocks, why FS should be on, or senseless smell your character topics. If an item sub forum existed nub topics could easily be moved/locked without hassle. But maybe this is asking too much of the "overworked" mods here.

 

[itsameSMB]

Third. Not for the "competative item play" that so many find humor in, but rather that so many discussion are item-based that in my opinion it is worthy of its own sub-forum. That way, item users could talk about what they want without being critized by non-item users and non-item users could have more discussions without interference from item users. I'd sign a petition if there was one.

 

[memphischains]

Although my opinion doesn't really hold to anything, I think hes right.

Maybe not a casual / item pro (lol) / non elietist section, but something. This general discussion makes me feel like throwing up.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I fully support this motion, if only because it will make my job much, much easier.

 

[-Linko-]

I fully support this motion, if only because it will make my job much, much easier.

Yeah, an ISP (Item Standard Play) subforum should be created, this alternative standard is getting somewhat popular. (And it would free General Discussion of n00b "IT3MZ!" topics... They will be replaced by "L0L BOMBZ SHUZNAT B3 BANNED!!1!" topics on the ISP subforum)

Also, Jack Kieser should be the moderator of that subforum.

Ps: Jack, when are the 2v2 ISP item lists coming?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, an ISP (Item Standard Play) subforum should be created, this alternative standard is getting somewhat popular. (And it would free General Discussion of n00b "IT3MZ!" topics... They will be replaced by "L0L BOMBZ SHUZNAT B3 BANNED!!1!" topics on the ISP subforum)

Also, Jack Kieser should be the moderator of that subforum.

Ps: Jack, when are the 2v2 ISP item lists coming?

Ha, thanks and all, but I'm not sure I'd be 'moderator material'. Oh, and actually, the 2v2 impressions shouldn't be too far off. We've come along really well with our 1v1 list, and in all reality, the 2v2 list will just be a tweak to that (thanks to everyone who has given us input on our 1v1 impressions, by the way; couldn't have done it without you ^_^). I'll probably have the list up sometime in the next 2 weeks so that we can begin the discussion on that.