The NEW and IMPROVED chaingrab guide for the 2011 IC Main that doesn't like tripping

[DeLux]

Popo Fthrow > Nana Regrab
Nana Bthrow > Popo Buffered turnaround Regrab

Repeat

Finish at approx 120% on EVERY character after Nana regrabs a Popo Fthrow with:

Buffer Nana Dthrow > Popo Half or 2/3rds Charged Fsmash depending on character weight

OR

Buffer Nana Uthrow > Popo Partial Charge Usmash

Notes:
It works on every character
It's unmashable if done correctly on everyone
It's tripless
It can be done on the smallest platforms
Most of you won't learn this because it's "too hard"



Welcome to the Future Everyone
Good bye Nana Combo Video moments


Protips:
Pray they don't pick Lucas since his spacing is hard as balls

 

[Roller]

I do not think people will consider it, "too hard." Some may consider it an unnecessary shift from their comfort zone though. I however will start working on these, at least on a few common characters after Genesis. Don't want to go into this weekend experimenting with new/different fundamentals.

 

[DeLux]

Any time someone says they trip during a CG in a crucial situation in this forum will now be forwarded to this thread without exception

 

[Roller]

I guarantee it will happen to the ICs going this weekend at least 3 times, collectively. *conservative estimate*

 

[Attila_]

I thought you could when inputting a turnaround or an fsmash...

 

[DeLux]

No. It's only when you dash.

Input Fsmash with Cstick

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hmmm...gonna play around with this now and see what happens.

The buffering part is easy..finding the rhythm for this is harder. I can get this though.

YESSSSSSSS I have this figured out. Now I just need to get consistent with it.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Inb4myself...
Wait...

Too hard.
But I'm gonna try tolearn it...!

 

[Deathfox30]

Vids plzz.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This isnt that hard to learn fyi. Putting tech skill aside the concept is really easy to grab.

Step 1: F-throw..making sure your spacing is correct for a Nana regrab.

Step 2: Upon successful regrab wait slightly (5 frames) and then do the Nana Back Throw so you successfully buffer the turnaround with Popo.

Step 3: Assuming you regrab with Popo make sure that you are continuing to hold Forward so Nana can walk forward while Popo catches the opponent thus allowing you to continue your spacing so you regrab with her.

After that its just a matter of getting consistent.

- Notes: You don't want to take any pauses while doing this other than the really slight one so you can buffer Popo's turnaround. The entire act should be pretty constant and quick.

- If you screw up on the F-Throw more try working on your spacing. Your ICs may be separated too muuch.

- Messing up on B-Throw suggests your timing is off.

Guys, everyone can learn this if put the effort out.

 

[DeLux]

Some characters it's possible to do a Dthrow variation of this as well

But the spacing and buffering is harder because of dthrow's low cooldown time

 

[Deathfox30]

I just tried it and made a quick video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZHCSKDH8Uw Just wanna make sure I'm doing it right.

That's after less than 10 minutes of practice, people should definitely learn this. xD

 

[DeLux]

Outside of your spacing being somewhere between poor and horrendous, that's what it should look like

 

[Life]

Trying to learn this and when I go to turnaround Nana doesn't throw. Really irritating, but I'll get the timing eventually. (Probably not hitting the control stick hard enough, but too hard makes popo dash which also screws it up. Meh. Just gotta work at it.)

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Sounds like you just need bthrow cg practice.

 

[Deathfox30]

Popo won't dash if you buffer it no matter how hard you hit it. Just buffer the back throw then keep the control stick held for awhile and tap Z and let the control stick return to neutral and you should get a turn around grab.

And Lux I'm getting a lot better with the spacing and more consistent with the CG. I just wanted to make sure I was doing it right before I practiced it for a long time. ily

 

[DeLux]

You actually really only need to buffer the turn around part via what deathfox just said. Then you can visual cue the regrab on the impending bthrow

 

[Life]

Couple things I found out (this is probably March 2008 stuff, I just haven't played ICs much at all):

The timing seems to be much more lenient at lower percents--I'd assume this is because it takes a couple extra frames for the other character to get out of your grab range. For reference, my record on MK (yeah, I should probably practice with something heavier so that I can go slower, but eh) in training mode at 0% is 13 throws in a row (78%, it probably works out to about 70 in versus). My record setting MK to 100%? About 5-6 in a row (~30%), and that's rare.

Also.... I've been dthrowing, not fthrowing. That might have something to do with it. Derp.

Guess you can ignore this and the last post then. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

 

[DeLux]

Dthrow on MK has spacing issues I'd imagine because his Dthrow IASA is too close to the hitbox frames to buffer out of it, so you wouldn't be able to buffer the turnaround, you'd have to manually input it.


It works to 300 on every character with fairly loose spacing requirements if you know what you're doing so not being able to get past 70 or 5 to 6 throws in a row is probably user error

 

[00-Zero]

I can dig it Lux
I love seeing new ways to cg
I've personally tried nana bthrowing to popo a few times, but never thought much of it because I already have cg's that I was comfortable with

 

[Myollnir]

Why this CG over a BThrow-DThrow CG?

 

[DeLux]

Why this CG over a BThrow-DThrow CG?

In order to properly answer this question, let's first deconstruct the components to each CG:

In the Bthrow > Dthrow CG, you have the following elements:

1. Popo Back Throw > Nana Regrab : The issue with this element of the CG is two fold. First, the bthrow has variable timing. This variable timing from character to character is compounded by difficulty because the inputs to throw with Popo and grab with Nana are too close together to reliably visual cue. At the same time, the issues with the sync mechanics creates directional issues when attempting to soft turn. This is reflected when you see Nana spinning in weird directions if you attempt to soft turn the CG in a non-buffered manner. If done out of a standard hard turn CG, Nana could trip. If done at an improper timing, Nana could possibly dash grab.

2. Nana Dthrow > Popo Regrab: There are two issues in this part of the CG. First, because of the cool down buffer mechanics, you could successfully regrab while accidentally buffering a Nana grab out of the cooldown of Dthrow. This is circumvented by shield buffering, but shield buffering then leaves you open to things such as accidentally inputting a spot dodge or roll because Nana acts on a cue timeline that isn't in real time. At the same time, you have to input down before walking forward to adjust spacing for the regrab. In some cases, most notably in the light characters, this causes a problem in spacing because the character will go through crouch and then proceed to walk forward.


Now let's deconstruct this newer CG combination:

1. Popo Fthrow > Nana Regrab: There is a constant timing for each character, so it can be done reliably on visual cue AND muscle memory. The only draw back is that spacing/timing is tighter than the B>D CG

2. Nana Bthrow > Popo buffered turnaround regrab: This creates a situation where the variable timing of the CG can be done purely on visual cue instead of trying to feel out the CG as per a Popo Bthrow. It is also a tripless turnaround. This also does not require shield buffering.


Both are good CGs. One however is tripless and can be done almost entirely off visual cue while the other cannot say the same.

 

[Myollnir]

Wow, thanks for your answer.

But the BThrow-Dthrow is tripless too, no?

 

[DeLux]

It can be done in a tripless manner, but it's significantly harder to perform because of the whacky sync mechanics or narrow buffer window depending on the manner in which you attempt to do a soft turn CG.

 

[Myollnir]

Ok.

I used to DThrow-BThrow pivot grab on MK, but it's not tripless, so I tried to BThrow-DThrw but I always miss.
I think I'm gonna learn this on MK.

 

[DeLux]

I was doing some testing on Lucas today. I discovered that outside of like the first 10%, Lucas is a true 2 frame regrab window. At some point slightly above 200%, you can no longer fthrow him reliably. Lucas is S Tier of hard to CG.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I don't like fighting Lucas.

I don't like bthrowing with nana.
I've always done bthrow popo, nana regrab>nana fthrow, popo regrab>repeat.
But I see the issue with bthrowing as popo, I run into it alot.
Nana dashing, tripping, or what looks like dag dancing while walking, but is really the sycnh messing with her:/

this is worth learning if I'll sit down and do it.

Lux quote your first answer to myollnir, and maybe what tech-chase said earlier into OP.

 

[DeLux]

Lux quote your first answer to myollnir, and maybe what tech-chase said earlier into OP.

I decline

 

[Mr. game and watch]

But I learned more from those than the OP!

 

[Rubberbandman]

This "sounds" better than it "feels". As in, a better on paper kind of thing, even though there is one thing on paper which is better: Less reps till kill theoretically opposed to Bthrow(p) -> Fthrow(n)

In your method, you stale Fthrow with popo which brings the "used to be constant" 8% dimishing amounts of damage, increasing the reps as opposed to staling the Bthrow (6%). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe it just feel weird because Im not used to it right now, Imma practice up though.

 

[DeLux]

The difference would end up being seen about 8% in damage over approx 120% damage in throws

At most it'll cause you to do one more throw.

That's assuming you started at 0. If you started at anything above 7% to CG to that 120 threshold, the difference in number of throws is negligible.

 

[TMSreptiles]

Oh joy, another chain grab to learn. I'm gone for a few months, and I come back to even more to learn, on top of the fact that I barely remember to play >.<
Thanks a ton for posting this, anyways.

 

[Deathfox30]

I was doing some testing on Lucas today. I discovered that outside of like the first 10%, Lucas is a true 2 frame regrab window. At some point slightly above 200%, you can no longer fthrow him reliably. Lucas is S Tier of hard to CG.

Is Ness the same?

I've finally got this CG consistent-ish on Earthbound but I screw up the F throw sometimes.

Is hobbling Lucas bad? I usually d throw him for awhile then when I'm confident they won't break out, b throw hobble until about 70% then smash hobble (if they don't know how to SDI) until kill percents. I don't really think mashing is an issue but if they DI well they should be able to force a dash regrab. Are there any other problems with it?

 

[DeLux]

Ness is not the same otherwise I would say Ness and Lucas

And that's probably the most viable tripless option we have on Lucas atm because he's so hard to CG triplessly via my method

I think in like 100 attempts I've gotten like 3 stocks to 120 without dropping on Lucas

So I frame tested it to see why it was so hard.

Tests were not encouraging lol

 

[F A N G]

I just tried it and made a quick video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZHCSKDH8Uw Just wanna make sure I'm doing it right.

That's after less than 10 minutes of practice, people should definitely learn this. xD

So if this is bad spacing, what should it be like? Icys closer together?

 

[Myollnir]

I can't do this with an F-Throw on MK :/
Should I take some time to learn this?
I'm not sure because I think I'll miss often during tournaments.
But, on the other hand, It'll keep my D-Throw fresh for the SoPo CG.

Thank you

 

[DeLux]

Myo, it should be the same timing as an fthrow on any other character :\

 

[Myollnir]

Maybe a different spacing?

 

[DeLux]

Not by a whole lot

The characters that kind of need adjusted spacing I've noticed are Ness, Rob, Snake, and Ganon

 

[TMSreptiles]

Guys, everyone can learn this if put the effort out.

Hehe... I still can't get this down :x