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The New Match-up Chart

t3h Icy

Smash Master
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Jun 12, 2009
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Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link

Some Agreement:
*crickets*

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff

Should I update the single match-up so Ness and Jigglypuff swap back? Maybe it'll help stop people asking about it.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
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Jun 12, 2009
Messages
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Updated:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff

So now Jigglypuff is higher than Ness, but Link is higher than Luigi now, rofl.

Then again, Ness/Luigi may changed, and I don't think Fox/Jigglypuff is happening. Fawks *****.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
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It should, but let's try to get correct match-ups and not just whatever organizes the list to match the tier list. =P
 

asianaussie

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I'd prefer Link to be above Luigi.

What were the arguments for Ness = Link again? I remember a Ness hatred vibe going on a while back, and I found out Ness doesn't absorb bombs.
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
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How would ness and link be equal. That makes no sense. Any uptilt, throw, or uair performed anywhere besides the exact center of hyrule is a dead link. At high percents bair can push link close enough to the edge to be fatal as well. I know there is a lot of ness hate but this is silly.


Willing to put that match up to the test, I'll play anyone p2p Ness vs Link and show you how easy it is to play like a **** and gimp link.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Fox vs Puff... I think it is easily >>. If the Fox player does not know the matchup, then the Puff player can easily beat the Fox player at even skill (if they know the matchup). I generally beat most Foxes I play against, even at my level, but it's mostly because they don't know the matchup and fall for stupid things. But those that do know the matchup generally beat me (unless there's a major skill gap).

Fox vs Puff is a definite >>. Play a good Fox that knows the matchup, and you will agree.
 

earthadept

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It's true that puff has an easy time edgeguarding fox, but her advantages end there. Fox kills her ridiculously quick with the up smash, can camp the **** out of her with lasers, outprioritizes like everything... I can't see it being anything but >>
 

asianaussie

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How would ness and link be equal. That makes no sense. Any uptilt, throw, or uair performed anywhere besides the exact center of hyrule is a dead link. At high percents bair can push link close enough to the edge to be fatal as well. I know there is a lot of ness hate but this is silly.


Willing to put that match up to the test, I'll play anyone p2p Ness vs Link and show you how easy it is to play like a **** and gimp link.
I'll take you up on that offer, but before that, I'd like to point out a really gay Link can camp very effectively. Ness's aerials can negate boomerangs, but not bombs, and down-b apparently does nothing against bombs, so unless Ness enjoys being bombarded, he has to approach at some point. His aerial hitboxes aren't anything like Link's disjointed ones, so Link can easily get hits in. Ness is comboed quite easily too by utilt and uair, and edgeguarding Ness isn't exactly a hassle either.
 

NixxxoN

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I'll take you up on that offer, but before that, I'd like to point out a really gay Link can camp very effectively. Ness's aerials can negate boomerangs, but not bombs, and down-b apparently does nothing against bombs, so unless Ness enjoys being bombarded, he has to approach at some point. His aerial hitboxes aren't anything like Link's disjointed ones, so Link can easily get hits in. Ness is comboed quite easily too by utilt and uair, and edgeguarding Ness isn't exactly a hassle either.
you think ness would chase link all day on hyrule while eating bombs? nah. ness can keep on avoiding them until link gets tired and starts approaching / stops being gay
i agree with metroid. ness can gimp link so easily once he gets hit and he is not on the center.
 

DMoogle

A$
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you think ness would chase link all day on hyrule while eating bombs? nah. ness can keep on avoiding them until link gets tired and starts approaching / stops being gay
i agree with metroid. ness can gimp link so easily once he gets hit and he is not on the center.
You can say the same thing about most characters vs. Link on Dreamland, but that doesn't make Link useless there.
 

DemonicInfluence

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Messages
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Fox vs Puff... I think it is easily >>. If the Fox player does not know the matchup, then the Puff player can easily beat the Fox player at even skill (if they know the matchup). I generally beat most Foxes I play against, even at my level, but it's mostly because they don't know the matchup and fall for stupid things. But those that do know the matchup generally beat me (unless there's a major skill gap).

Fox vs Puff is a definite >>. Play a good Fox that knows the matchup, and you will agree.
I think it's only a > because of the ease that Jiggly edge kills fox. Also, the fact that Jiggly can do rest combos decently on fox is a plus. One grab by Jiggly basically means either an edgeguard or a rest combo, so I don't think it's too broken for fox.

It's true that puff has an easy time edgeguarding fox, but her advantages end there. Fox kills her ridiculously quick with the up smash, can camp the **** out of her with lasers, outprioritizes like everything... I can't see it being anything but >>
It's called being gay on the left side of hyrule :laugh: and if it's on dreamlnd, no more uber lasers
 

M3tr01D

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Alright cheese send me a PM sometime when you wanna play. You can host p2p right? I could never get my router to cooperate.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The current trend against Ness is that everybody "decent" nowadays camps Ness really hard, Ness isn't too good at 0 to death (unless next to an edge), Ness off the edge is gimped, Ness has trouble approaching, Ness is easily comboed

Ness has priority and shield breaks and decent combo ability


I think though Ness = Link

--

Fox >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>> Puff

Puff has to camp extremely hard to stand a chance although Puff could 0 to death off a grab, but Puff is a big target for lasers, dies at very low percents and when shined is somehow lifted slightly and flung off the stage

I think Puff camps better on the top of Hyrule rather than left of Hyrule but thats just me
 

MattNF

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I agree with Nintendude, Fox vs Samus is stupid as hell.

Jigglypuff at least can approach Luigi better than Luigi can approach Jiggly. Samus pretty much can't do anything against Fox, especially when he camps.
 

Fireblaster

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Pika has to approach samus one way or another, and even if pikachu's moves have high priority, he can always get outranged by samus's bair. Fox can always laser until he has 99% safe approach.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Puff vs Luigi is lame in the sense that Puff can't easily combo Luigi, while Luigi can destroy Puff out of a down-air or up-air (plus, if Puff Dairs Luigi but ends in the air, Luigi can up-B before puff can do anything). However, if the puff player plays smart and doesn't walk into those attacks, the puff player can win. Sure it's much easier said than done. Puff has much better aerial mobility than Luigi, so avoiding it isn't impossible. It is a dumb matchup, but by no means Puff's worst.

Puff vs Fox, well... a laser spamming Fox easily has a major advantage. First off, Puff must avoid Fox's lasers. Then, Puff must get through Fox's priority, then has to get a good hit on Fox to even start a combo. Even though Puff can easily 0-death Fox (probably one of the easiest), if Puff never gets a chance to do the 0-death, then... well, then it isn't that useful. Lets put it this way... Roy in melee can fully charge his neutral B, which would result in an instant death to any character who gets hit by it. If he can never make the attack hit anyone, then it is useless. Obviously Puff's 0-death is usable on Fox, but the same theory applies to an extent.

Puff vs Pika... In my experience, Pika easily has the advantage. However, unlike Fox, he can't completely out-camp Puff, and unlike Luigi, he can't easily 0-death Puff from somewhat easy-to-hit attacks. Instead, he has an excessively large amount of range that can easily be abused (and if used properly, Puff will have a hard time hitting Pika). Up-air is amazing against Puff, as it completely out-ranges anything she can do. However, if Pika makes a mistake, a good puff should make it result in the loss of a stock. Pika is one of the easier characters to 0-death (well, easy-meduim due to up-B, but still guaranteeable if you know what you're doing).

Luigi, as lame as down-air and up-air are such that they can easily lead to up-B and down-B, can't guarantee getting those attacks to hit. A smart puff can avoid the attacks (at least enough to stand a chance in the match). It is definitely a Luigi advantage, but by no means Puff's worst (I'd say both Pika and Fox are worse).

Now... in terms of fox or Pika being Puff's worst matchup... well, both can destroy puff, and if either makes a mistake, both can be punished by death by puff. However, what makes me heavily believe that Fox is Puff's worst matchup is that a camping Fox has more room for error than a Pikachu has. Pika has to face puff head on, and any mistake will likely result in the loss of a stock. Fox, if he makes a mistake (messes up lasers, for example), he still can avoid getting combo'd. Fox would have to make a significant mistake to get caught in a 0-death (or must have been insanely mindgamed). So on the basis of who has the larger margin of error, I would easily say Fox is Puff's worst matchup.

For those saying that Puff vs Fox should be > on the basis that once Fox is off the ledge, he's dead easy to edgeguard (down-smash, F-smash, Nair, Bair, Fair, suicide rest, etc.), although it is true, you will very rarely get a good Fox off the stage. If you camp on the side of the stage waiting to backthrow him, expect to eat a lot of lasers.

I think we can all be in agreement that Luigi, Fox, and Pika are Puff's top 3 worst matchups, but for the reasons stated above, I would say that Fox is Puff's worst, followed by Pika, then Luigi. I personally would say that Fox should be >>, while Pika and Luigi would be >.
 

ballin4life

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disproving determinism
Now... in terms of fox or Pika being Puff's worst matchup... well, both can destroy puff, and if either makes a mistake, both can be punished by death by puff. However, what makes me heavily believe that Fox is Puff's worst matchup is that a camping Fox has more room for error than a Pikachu has. Pika has to face puff head on, and any mistake will likely result in the loss of a stock. Fox, if he makes a mistake (messes up lasers, for example), he still can avoid getting combo'd. Fox would have to make a significant mistake to get caught in a 0-death (or must have been insanely mindgamed). So on the basis of who has the larger margin of error, I would easily say Fox is Puff's worst matchup.
See this is what I don't get. I feel like pika has a much bigger margin for error than fox does. If fox gets grabbed or drilled, it's a rest combo. If pika gets drilled it's a rest combo, and if pika gets grabbed at low percents its a rest combo, but anything above 20% and pika can upb out of an fthrow. If fox messes up and gets hit over the edge it's an edgeguard opportunity. For pika, not so much.
 

earthadept

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Yeah, but Fox can stay away from puff and very effectively laser camp. Pikachu is forced to approach, which greatly increases the chances for a rest combo or something.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Ballin... using theory, yes, once Puff hits Fox / Pika, Fox is instantly dead, while Pika (depending on the hit) can escape. However, in an actual match, Fox can camp the entire match, making it impossible to hit him (not impossible, but you know what I mean). Pika, however, has to go right up to Puff to attack. What I mean by Fox having a larger margin for error than Pika is that if Fox messes up his shdl/shsl, he won't get hit. Even if Puff gets to Fox, he can either run away, or abuse his priority and attack Puff. Fox has to make a very significant mistake for Puff to be able to start a rest combo on him. Pika, on the other hand, has to go right in front of Puff to attack. If Pika goes for a Uair and misses, Puff gets a free hit on him (might be just a neutral air for damage, might be a down-air up-tilt rest for the kill (works above 20%) ). Sure, Puff can't throw combo Pika past 20%, but puff can combo Pika in other ways as well, and unlike Fox, Puff has a much easier time getting to Pika without lasers and such.

What makes it seem as if Puff has an easier time against Fox than Pika is that although Fox is Puff's worst matchup, not many Foxes know the matchup, so they will easily fall into Puff's rest combos. However, if you do end up playing against a Fox that knows the matchup, winning is almost impossible.
 

DMoogle

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What makes it seem as if Puff has an easier time against Fox than Pika is that although Fox is Puff's worst matchup, not many Foxes know the matchup, so they will easily fall into Puff's rest combos. However, if you do end up playing against a Fox that knows the matchup, winning is almost impossible.
It sounds like there isn't much difference between "knowing the matchup" and camping. I generally choose not to camp too much (and I'm probably way more aggressive than nearly everyone near my skill level) because it makes the game boring.

I'm sure people can agree that a non-campy Fox can still **** an equally skilled Puff. I'm just not one of those people.
 

DemonicInfluence

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I still think Luigi vs Puff is more ******** probably because I do much better against Foxes personally than Luigis. BUt whatever
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I may be wrong (maybe I haven't played any good Luigi's). From the ones I've played, I've had more difficulty against Pikas and Foxes. If I had a working online smash, I'd ask for someone to Luigi my Puff and see what the results are... but... well... you know... :crying:
 
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