The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[Retroend]

for ganon, retro combo him. thats all i gotta say. (seriously, he's too easy to beat.).

 

[choice_brawler]

is there anything else that needs to be discussed about ZSS? Or should we move on to the next char...

 

[SaltyKracka]

THIS GAME JUST BECAME AWESOME

No, Reverse Pivot Grabbing. It actually gives him grab range better than Kirby's.

for ganon, retro combo him. thats all i gotta say. (seriously, he's too easy to beat.).

And you're too inexperienced to talk.

 

[MK26]

Reverse Pivot Grabbing.

Redundant?

 

[DFat2]

is there anything else that needs to be discussed about ZSS? Or should we move on to the next char...

It's a Weekly discussion. That generally means that we have the entire week to discuss that character. When the character doesn't get that much attention, they move on to the next one and it turns into Week __ A character and Week __ B character.
__________________________________________

ZSS definetly has the advantage in this one. The margin is beyond me. I would put it 45/55 in favor of ZSS. I have yet to play a Tourney level ZS but I've seen one play. All I can do is analyze and go with normal ZS's I've played over time.

Generally, She has more Priority on Ground, Good projectile game and fast Aerials. Her problem might be Getting the KO I think.

Kirby can't Gonzo and Has to be careful when attacking. He can kill her Early if I'm not mistaken.

That's pretty much what I know about the Match up.

ZSS Vs. Kirby
_55_____45_​

 

[SaltyKracka]

Redundant?

No, actually. There's a whole thread on it in the G-dorf boards.

 

[momochuu]

No, actually. There's a whole thread on it in the G-dorf boards.

Reverse and Pivot and essentially the same thing, so there's no need to call it a Reverse pivot grab, just a pivot grab or something.

 

[Gleam]

Reverse and Pivot and essentially the same thing, so there's no need to call it a Reverse pivot grab, just a pivot grab or something.

I believe you're thinking of just a normal pivot grab. Running forward and quickly grabbing behind am I right?

The RPG is basically a double pivot grab, or however you want to put it really. Its where instead of running forward and grabbing backwards. One runs backwards, and grabs forward.

This allows Ganon to put in the same range as his Pivot Grab, but now instead of grabbing backwards, he can finally grab forward which puts a hellva a longer rang on what used to be perhaps the worst standing grab range in the game.

 

[A1lion835]

or better yet Japes.

I actually have something that might make japes not as good vs Zamus. For instance, she doesn't get washed away in the water when she tethers. Also, if you're on the platform above the middle platform and she's right below you, she can chain up-b's on you for a while if you don't techroll. And one more thing. She can up-b you when you're next to the edge and meteor you into the water. Japes might be good, but I'm not sure how good. Keep in mind, I did all of this in training, so it might not be as bad as I make it sound. But it might.

 

[momochuu]

You can walk/run backwards in this game?

 

[MK26]

I believe you're thinking of just a normal pivot grab. Running forward and quickly grabbing behind am I right?

The RPG is basically a double pivot grab, or however you want to put it really. Its where instead of running forward and grabbing backwards. One runs backwards, and grabs forward.

This allows Ganon to put in the same range as his Pivot Grab, but now instead of grabbing backwards, he can finally grab forward which puts a hellva a longer rang on what used to be perhaps the worst standing grab range in the game.

It's still a pivot grab...just the opponent is behind you the entire time rather than you running past them and pivot grabbing

But please...back to the matchup

 

[Gleam]

It's still a pivot grab...just the opponent is behind you the entire time rather than you running past them and pivot grabbing

But please...back to the matchup

No, that's the thing, the opponent is in front of you during the RPG, not behind you.

 

[MK26]

No, that's the thing, the opponent is in front of you during the RPG, not behind you.

So you run away and pivot grab
Pivot pivot grab?

 

[momochuu]

Honestly, it has nothing to do with this specific matchup, so it really doesn't matter. =S

 

[DFat2]

Honestly, it has nothing to do with this specific matchup, so it really doesn't matter. =S

Thank you.

And, I don't know if you've all noticed, but Kirby while Crouching evades a LOT of Ganon's attacks.

Crouch> Thunder Storming, Spartan Kick, Fsmash (without DIng downward), DSmash and DownB.

I think there are more but I really don't want to turn on the Wii. I'm almost certain that he can evade all of those while crouching (I think that Spartan Kick and Down Smash are dependent on how close you are standing to Him or something like that).

So yeah, Doesn't look so Hot for Ganon.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Thank you.

And, I don't know if you've all noticed, but Kirby while Crouching evades a LOT of Ganon's attacks.

Crouch> Thunder Storming, Spartan Kick, Fsmash (without DIng downward), DSmash and DownB.

I think there are more but I really don't want to turn on the Wii. I'm almost certain that he can evade all of those while crouching (I think that Spartan Kick and Down Smash are dependent on how close you are standing to Him or something like that).

So yeah, Doesn't look so Hot for Ganon.

That might be the case if it weren't for the fact that Ganon can easily reset the spacing by Thunderstorming away and dtilting you.

 

[DFat2]

That might be the case if it weren't for the fact that Ganon can easily reset the spacing by Thunderstorming away and dtilting you.

If you Thunderstorm in front of me, you eat Ftilt. If You Thunderstorm behind me, you eat Utilt which is Worst for Ganon.

Don't get me Wrong, I'm not under estimating him. I use him for Low tier tournaments (that's why he's in the background of my avatar). I know what he's capable of. To tell you the Truth, it's not so good for Ganon. I'd put it at 60/40 in Kirby's favor, and I think that's being generous. Kirby eats heavyweights that aren't named Snake. And he fair's alright against Snake anyway.

60/40

Counter Pick for Ganondorf with Kirby... Yoshi Island(Brawl) for the Lulz. Other than that, Rainbow Cruise.

I don't CP rainbow cruise anymore because it's too predictable. It's rare for the other person to stick with their mains if Their going to RC. They mostly pick MK.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If you Thunderstorm in front of me, you eat Ftilt. If You Thunderstorm behind me, you eat Utilt which is Worst for Ganon.

Don't get me Wrong, I'm not under estimating him. I use him for Low tier tournaments (that's why he's in the background of my avatar). I know what he's capable of. To tell you the Truth, it's not so good for Ganon. I'd put it at 60/40 in Kirby's favor, and I think that's being generous. Kirby eats heavyweights that aren't named Snake. And he fair's alright against Snake anyway.

60/40

Counter Pick for Ganondorf with Kirby... Yoshi Island(Brawl).

Kirby's Ftilt doesn't go high enough to intercept a Thunderstorm right in front of him, not to mention it doesn't have enough range to beat out a retreating one.

 

[momochuu]

I'm not sure if people understand matchup threads...If it's a painfully obvious matchup, where you know which character has the matchup, you usually shouldn't argue ever single advantage that the advantageous character has. It should be about counterpicking, and making the matchup...not as hard. Not:

Person 1: "Yes. We have the advantage. Most of our moves have more range than yours, and we can gimp you easily."

Person 2: "Yeah, well it's in our advantage because we can do the double turn spin Ftilt attack"

Are the Ganon boards trying to make this a 50:50 matchup or something?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

99:1

moar like

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm not sure if people understand matchup threads...If it's a painfully obvious matchup, where you know which character has the matchup, you usually shouldn't argue ever single advantage that the advantageous character has. It should be about counterpicking, and making the matchup...not as hard. Not:

Person 1: "Yes. We have the advantage. Most of our moves have more range than yours, and we can gimp you easily."

Person 2: "Yeah, well it's in our advantage because we can do the double turn spin Ftilt attack"

Are the Ganon boards trying to make this a 50:50 matchup or something?

*coughchainchokingcough*

Basically, I'm just trying to correct the deficiencies in your knowledge.

99:1

moar like

Such as this.

 

[DFat2]

Kirby's Ftilt doesn't go high enough to intercept a Thunderstorm right in front of him, not to mention it doesn't have enough range to beat out a retreating one.

If you reset the Spacing, all you do is put yourself in a worse position because you are retreating. You wouldn't retreat if you had less damage than the Kirby player. All you are doing is giving them the space they need to build up a Bair Wall, ect.

Kirby has a (really stupid) projectile. Nonetheless, he has one. Ganon doesn't. As ridiculous as it sounds, Ganondorf is forced to approach or Perfect Shield all the Waves UpB emits. You'll eventually get hit or eventually approach (Or loose by time).

Or maybe you'll get lucky and fight a Kirby that Actually attacks a Ganon First.

EDIT: I thought this thread was to discuss the match ups, Advantages, Pros and Cons, ect. so that Maestro could put it all nice and Clean in the First page and Deserve 4 Gold stars. (Really, why no stars huh?)

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby's Ftilt doesn't go high enough to intercept a Thunderstorm right in front of him

Do the words "Angle up" mean anything to you?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

*coughchainchokingcough*

Basically, I'm just trying to correct the deficiencies in your knowledge.

boy, what a hypocrite

 

[SaltyKracka]

If you reset the Spacing, all you do is put yourself in a worse position because you are retreating. You wouldn't retreat if you had less damage than the Kirby player. All you are doing is giving them the space they need to build up a Bair Wall, ect.

Kirby has a (really stupid) projectile. Nonetheless, he has one. Ganon doesn't. As ridiculous as it sounds, Ganondorf is forced to approach or Perfect Shield all the Waves UpB emits. You'll eventually get hit or eventually approach (Or loose by time).

Or maybe you'll get lucky and fight a Kirby that Actually attacks a Ganon First.

Any time when a Kirby is crouching outside of his own attack range, that's called a free dtilt for Ganon. Besides, Uair eats bair walls.

I always consider myself lucky whenever a Kirby trys to Cutter spam me on-stage. It's easily shielded and punished with just about anything, dtilt and FC being my personal favorites.

Do the words "Angle up" mean anything to you?

Do the words "much better priority and range" mean anything to you?

 

[Asdioh]

This sounds closer to a flame war than a matchup debate.

From my perspective, Ganondorf is a good character....but not against Kirby. Now I could be wrong: I used to think Kirby was like 80:20 over Bowser, until I played a good Bowser (Sliq) and got my *** handed to me 5 games in a row.

Let's start out by listing moves to look out for for each character, shall we?

Kirby fears the following Ganondorf moves (help me out here):
-Uair
-Autocancelled Dair, and spikes when recovering with Final Cutter
-Dtilt
-Side B chains
-Ganoncide
-Warlock Kick (air for KO, ground is easy to duck under, or shield and punish)
-Upsmash
Kirby should also fear Bair and Fair for KOs, but Kirby's aerials generally beat those moves.

Now, Ganondorf should fear:
-Dtilt
-Utilt
-Bair
-Fsmash
-Inhale
-Well-spaced aerial Hammers
-....pretty much all of Kirby's aerials, actually
-Dair spike
-GRABS
-Possibly Dsmash

Obviously, all moves have their uses, but some are harder to land than others in certain matchups. Ganondorf's Fsmash is incredibly powerful, but it will not hit frequently against a good Kirby.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This sounds closer to a flame war than a matchup debate.

From my perspective, Ganondorf is a good character....but not against Kirby. Now I could be wrong: I used to think Kirby was like 80:20 over Bowser, until I played a good Bowser (Sliq) and got my *** handed to me 5 games in a row.

Let's start out by listing moves to look out for for each character, shall we?

Kirby fears the following Ganondorf moves (help me out here):
-Uair
-Autocancelled Dair, and spikes when recovering with Final Cutter
-Dtilt
-Side B chains
-Ganoncide
-Warlock Kick (air for KO, ground is easy to duck under, or shield and punish)
Kirby should also fear Bair and Fair for KOs, but Kirby's aerials generally beat those moves.

Now, Ganondorf should fear:
-Dtilt
-Bair
-Fsmash
-Inhale
-Well-spaced aerial Hammers
-....pretty much all of Kirby's aerials, actually
-Dair spike
-GRABS

Why should Ganon fear Inhale anywhere other than the ledge?

 

[DFat2]

Any time when a Kirby is crouching outside of his own attack range, that's called a free dtilt for Ganon. Besides, Uair eats bair walls.

If you Play online, I believe you. If you play offline, there's something known as a Shield, which can be performed while crouching. Everything sound's good in Theory, but the chances that half of the possibilities you are even suggesting are 1/10 chances of happening.

I always consider myself lucky whenever a Kirby trys to Cutter spam me on-stage. It's easily shielded and punished with just about anything, dtilt and FC being my personal favorites.

So Dtilt has the range of Half of FD now? If the Kirby's you have played Spam FC while near punishing range and don't retreat to a ledge, I don't blame you for trying to insist the match up isn't that one sided. On the other hand, a Good Kirby player Spams FC enough to make the opponent make the first approach and takes it from there. Or at least tries to make it look like their doing the approach but Bait/Mind Game them into thinking their approaching.

A Good Bair Wall isn't that hard to break unless it's left to be broken on purpose.

Why should Ganon fear Inhale anywhere other than the ledge?

Because a Falling inhale into a Shielding opponent is too good.

 

[A1lion835]

Do the words "much better priority and range" mean anything to you?

Um... we're still talking about your dair, right? Well, if you dair in front of me, unless you manage to hover above maximum ftilt height while attacking us, AKA be peach ganon (O_o), that's not gonna work. There's something called "hitting you were you don't have a hitbox but have a hurtbox."

 

[IC3R]

Shall I pester the Ganon boards for more opinions/facts on the match-up? It seems they've yet to make a decision on the same Kirby vs. Ganon match-up as well.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If you Play online, I believe you. If you play offline, there's something known as a Shield, which can be performed while crouching. Everything sound's good in Theory, but the chances that half of the possibilities you are even suggesting are 1/10 chances of happening.

The thing about Dtilt is that it's a poke. It makes YOU approach, unless you're going to try to use Cutter that near Ganondorf, which is just asking to get the **** chainchoked out of you.

So Dtilt has the range of Half of FD now? If the Kirby's you have played Spam FC while near punishing range and don't retreat to a ledge, I don't blame you for trying to insist the match up isn't that one sided. On the other hand, a Good Kirby player Spams FC enough to make the opponent make the first approach and takes it from there. Or at least tries to make it look like their doing the approach but Bait/Mind Game them into thinking their approaching.

A Good Bair Wall isn't that hard to break unless it's left to be broken on purpose.

Half of FD is range to just walk a little away and not get hit at all. In addition, it's incredibly easy to just run up to Kirby while he's using Cutter and PS the projectile part, leaving him wide open for punishment. Even from half of FD away.

Mind explaining that last line?

 

[IC3R]

Nevermind, MK26 beat me to it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218577

Yeah, we need more than one Ganon arguing here...

 

[DFat2]

The thing about Dtilt is that it's a poke. It makes YOU approach, unless you're going to try to use Cutter that near Ganondorf, which is just asking to get the **** chainchoked out of you.



Half of FD is range to just walk a little away and not get hit at all. In addition, it's incredibly easy to just run up to Kirby while he's using Cutter and PS the projectile part, leaving him wide open for punishment. Even from half of FD away.

Mind explaining that last line?

Yes I would.

I generally play safe. That is, not leaving Stupid openings for the opponent to capitalize on. Whenever I use FC, I make sure there's a ledge where I could Cling on in case the opponent tries to, I dunno, PS my FC.

You see, the thing is that, it seems easy enough, but most of the time some thing seems easy its basically an invitation to jump into the ****. You can't possibly think it's as easy as walking up to kirby and Poking Him with DTilt.

The Match up Should be 60/40, and that is to make a Happy Medium or something. Don't expect anything more, seriously.

You should get a Grasp at what Kirby has on Ganondorf and what Ganondorf has on Kirby.

 

[A1lion835]

You should get a Grasp at what Kirby has on Ganondorf and what Ganondorf has on Kirby.

I vote we have him brawl gonzo.

 

[Asdioh]

He lives in California...

Gonzo hates wifi...

Wifi sucks in general...

As for Inhale, Salty, it has some superarmor frames and generally good reach. It's obviously not going to be spammed, but Ganondorf is definitely one of the easier characters to Inhale.

Plus, he can Copy Warlock Punch.

...

I mean, come on.

 

[~Gonzo~]

I vote we have him brawl gonzo.

100 lolz where does he live? jk

 

[DFat2]

I vote we have him brawl gonzo.

That's Basically what I meant. Although if he want's wifi, he has to play Asdioh though. Either way is fine.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yes I would.

I generally play safe. That is, not leaving Stupid openings for the opponent to capitalize on. Whenever I use FC, I make sure there's a ledge where I could Cling on in case the opponent tries to, I dunno, PS my FC.

You see, the thing is that, it seems easy enough, but most of the time some thing seems easy its basically an invitation to jump into the ****. You can't possibly think it's as easy as walking up to kirby and Poking Him with DTilt.

The Match up Should be 60/40, and that is to make a Happy Medium or something. Don't expect anything more, seriously.

You should get a Grasp at what Kirby has on Ganondorf and what Ganondorf has on Kirby.

1. If you're clinging to a ledge, then doesn't that mean that you haven't used the Cutter's projectile at all, and set yourself up to get edgeguarded? Sounds like a stupid opening to me.
2. I'm not saying it's as simple as poking Kirby with Dtilt. I'm just stating that Dtilt is a good poke that can punish some obvious things that Kirby can do. Tbqh, those situations shouldn't happen though. You'll likely see a lot more of Uair to interrupt aerial approaches, with Thunderstorming to punish dashing approaches and Dtilt to only poke at you if you're trying to walk into range or do one of the two things mentioned earlier.

As for the matchup ratio, I'd suggest that you learn just what Ganondorf can do first. You seem to have a good grasp of the basics, but we of the Ganondorf boards have been discovering too much good stuff lately. Such as chainchoking.

EDIT: Yeah, I live on the ***-end of the Southwestern U.S.
Always up for an online Brawl, though. I'd gladly play Asdioh.

 

[A1lion835]

Asdioh can't brawl. He only has his wii on some weekends, and this weekend he won't. Also:

Um... we're still talking about your dair, right? Well, if you dair in front of me, unless you manage to hover above maximum ftilt height while attacking us, AKA be peach ganon (O_o), that's not gonna work. There's something called "hitting you were you don't have a hitbox but have a hurtbox."

You guys don't seem to have come up with a response.

 

[~Gonzo~]

if theres no lag i'm down, its actually easier to 0-death in wifi, but 1000 F'n times harder to powershield :O