The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[cAm8ooo]

When did i ever say that I get owned by marth players? I personaly dont know any good ones and live in Kentucky far from any actual pro marths. I simply said that character wise, Marth owns kirby. Which is pretty much fact.

It doesnt matter if you can **** every Marth player you come across because it just simply means they suck at Marth. I'm pretty sure that Chudat (one of, if not the BEST kirby) got three stocked my a Marth. This with several other good player's opinions on both sides, such as Gonzo and Emblem Lord only further establish the fact that Marth has the big advantage in this matchup.

You can have your own opinion but if you think that your sole opinion should out weigh everyone else and change it to 45-55 is just simply stupid.

 

[Asdioh]

Enough arguing about the gay "man" with the tiara.

From the old matchup thread:

Falco: 55-45
Fox: 70-30

I find Falco to be a PIECE OF CAKE.

Fox EATS ME. He has crazy speed, he has reflector for mindgames while falling (much like how Kirby has 5 jumps, and can make you guess when he's coming down to attack, Fox's reflector serves the same purpose) his upsmash kills at like -2%, and he makes annoying noises when he attacks.

They're both extremely easy to gimp, and I love punishing side B with Stone, but when Fox is onstage, his speed just makes him impossible. Maybe it's because wifi sucks.

help

 

[MakoMako]

Enough arguing about the gay "man" with the tiara.

From the old matchup thread:

I find Falco to be a PIECE OF CAKE.

Fox EATS ME. He has crazy speed, he has reflector for mindgames while falling (much like how Kirby has 5 jumps, and can make you guess when he's coming down to attack, Fox's reflector serves the same purpose) his upsmash kills at like -2%, and he makes annoying noises when he attacks.

They're both extremely easy to gimp, and I love punishing side B with Stone, but when Fox is onstage, his speed just makes him impossible. Maybe it's because wifi sucks.

help

Very very easy to get fox from 0% to 50% in a single combo, a few fairs and bairs then your fsmash can easily kill him at 90%.

For Marth : Anyone that says Kirby vs Marth is anything better than 35:65 really needs to play against someone other than the cpu. dtilt pretty much makes Kirby his *****; you'll just find yourself rolling into Marth's upsmash, small jumping into an fair to avoid his dtilt sounds nice until you kiss fsmash/fair/ftilt or even dancing blade.

I always thought a running shield grab was the best solution until I found out that IT IS POSSIBLE FOR martha TO FAIR OUT OF KIRBY'S FTHROW. He can also hit you with a dair before you hit him with upair, or he can also counter because kirby's upair is pretty predictable.

His tipper spike will be your worst nightmare and will cost you the match every time, it's possible to shield grab at around the 3rd hit of his dancing blade which is a good thing, Kirby's bair abuse will probably lead to you getting tipped which is a bad thing. A marth that knows his spacing like the back of his hand will probably tip you everytime you climb from a ledge carelessly.

The only real match deciding advantage that Kirby has is the fact that his fmash kills marth at around 100% at a reasonable position on any neutral stage. OH and it isnt too hard to gimp (then edgehog) a marth because of dolphin slash's limited horizontal distance, you could also introduce Marth to your hammer (preferably 2nd swing) while he tries to position himself before he upb's. However a mistake will most likely result in you being stage spiked and then copulated by Marth's tipper spike as you try to recover with the few jumps you have left.

Sooo I say 69:31 to Marth.

 

[skellitorman]

Sorry I have been a way for a while (doing a long research project) and I don't have much time to debate this now. However Sheer, I would like to ask you why you think Marth does have an advantage, although I completely agree with you on alot of points, you don't say much about the advantages that Marth has, that would merit him a 45-55.

Also what he is trying to say about playing melee, is that you learn alot of skills like timing and strategies and since the matchup is similar you could transfer all that skill over to brawl. This was the same point that I was trying to make. This is why he brings up the point with many of the players that have 2008 join dates. He is not directly saying that you have no right to talk, but he is saying that because of the lack of experience, that your points aren't as valid.

Sheer, have you played lambchops or afro yet? If you have then I don't see how you could think that snake doesn't have such a huge advantage over Kirby (the main problem being to KO Snake). Unless you found an efficient way to KO Snake, then this is a horrible matchup. If you have, then maybe id give you 60/40.

I don't think many of you understood my previous points so I will not continue explaining it as of now.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

LOL 31/69

 

[Steel]

Sorry I have been a way for a while (doing a long research project) and I don't have much time to debate this now. However Sheer, I would like to ask you why you think Marth does have an advantage, although I completely agree with you on alot of points, you don't say much about the advantages that Marth has, that would merit him a 45-55.

Also what he is trying to say about playing melee, is that you learn alot of skills like timing and strategies and since the matchup is similar you could transfer all that skill over to brawl. This was the same point that I was trying to make. This is why he brings up the point with many of the players that have 2008 join dates. He is not directly saying that you have no right to talk, but he is saying that because of the lack of experience, that your points aren't as valid.

Sheer, have you played lambchops or afro yet? If you have then I don't see how you could think that snake doesn't have such a huge advantage over Kirby (the main problem being to KO Snake). Unless you found an efficient way to KO Snake, then this is a horrible matchup. If you have, then maybe id give you 60/40.

I don't think many of you understood my previous points so I will not continue explaining it as of now.

So emblem lord's 05 join date doesn't mean anything when he is basically saying the same exact **** which explains why this is a terrible match for kirby?

Like he said, dash dancing, wavedashing etc aren't in brawl anymore and so you don't have as many reliable ways to get through Marth's zoning (which no kirby has yet to give me a viable response to).

You can't invalidate points simply because of join date, especially if you can't find any logical argument against them.

 

[jiovanni007]

Enough arguing about the gay "man" with the tiara.

From the old matchup thread:

I find Falco to be a PIECE OF CAKE.

Fox EATS ME. He has crazy speed, he has reflector for mindgames while falling (much like how Kirby has 5 jumps, and can make you guess when he's coming down to attack, Fox's reflector serves the same purpose) his upsmash kills at like -2%, and he makes annoying noises when he attacks.

They're both extremely easy to gimp, and I love punishing side B with Stone, but when Fox is onstage, his speed just makes him impossible. Maybe it's because wifi sucks.

help

agreed with the first portion. Marth is a very difficult match, Kirby players not realizing that is only going to hurt our community in the long run. As far as this match goes its clearly about 70-30 in favor of Marth. His aerial momentum, power, range, and damage building techniques all are better in this match. The thing I think most of you don't understand is that this doesn't mean that this match is impossible, its just very difficult. I've beaten good Marth's with my Kirby before, but when I did I played almost perfectly. With my experience, I was able to see a lot of Marth's tricks and occasionally counter them. The key word here is occasionally. No matter how hard you try in this match, no matter how well you see it coming, sometimes there is just nothing you can do.

I, a Kirby main declare this match 30-70, the Marth main's have already gave the reason's why so no Kirby main should say any different unless they can provide an @ssload of proof that says otherwise. Again the match is 30-70 (31-69 is preferred for comic relief)

As far as Falco is concerned (and all spacies for that matter), Gonzo pretty much hit the nail on the head a while back with his 70-30 Fox, 60-40 Falco, and 50-50 Wolf.

Fox is the lightest, ruled over on the ground and in the air, and is just lacks the answers for most of Kirby's attacks and approaches.

Falco is not quite as easy as he can sometimes shut down approaches with lasers and the reflector (mainly the reflector). ^B is asking to die when recovering, and his A combo is very good. Still he can be copied and you can then SHTL him 0_o, his recovery is bad, and he is still not that heavy so he won't live past ~100% in most cases. He also has trouble racking up damage as fast since Kirby doesn't get CGed and his main form of killing outside of dair gimps is his usmash which can be difficult to hit with at times.

 

[SheerMadness]

Since I'm not up to date with Marth brawl terms what is zoning now? I assume its probably camping fairs or something of the sort?

Skellitor yes I've played Afro. I played him in Winner's Semis last gigabits. He beat me, games were close though. Walking away from the match I felt just as confident in Kirby's ability to beat Snakes as I ever have. I haven't played chops since april/may. I quit playing brawl in early May until this month.

You guys are right though. If I'm the only Kirby who doesn't think its 30-70 it probably shouldn't be changed. I'll just keep playing Marths at 45-55 and you guys can play them at 30-70 and we'll all be happy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth..terms?

More like...fighting game terms since the days of SF2.

>_>

It just means keeping your opponent at bay with pokes that are fast, have decent range and have good priority. This way you effectively limit thier options and how they can deal with your attacks.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah it's pritty clear what zoning means in general. I was asking what marth uses? He camps fairs and downtilts right?

 

[Steel]

Mostly fairs, dtilts, jabs, and the occasional ftilt.

 

[Asdioh]

Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest reason I have trouble with Fox is because I play him on wifi. It's hard to stop his speed when you can't react instantly. Falco is not as fast, and therefore easier for me. And wolf is lame.

Anyway, people don't seem to understand that Fox and Wolf can use Reflector after the first fthrow->uair to interrupt your combo. It works every time. The way I've found to get around this is to predict their reflector, and instead of grabbing after the first uair, shield the reflector and then grab. It should work.

Seriously though, with Fox zooming around the stage on wifi, you hafta understand my pain >_>
I don't see why Falco is harder than Fox. Sure his lasers are good, but you can just duck under them and force him to approach.
Also, short hop quad laser (the fourth one is a "silent" laser, it's badass)

And Wolf...might be easier offline, but I've played Wolves that think they're good on wifi because they spam fsmash, dsmash, and laser, and win. It's total bull****.

 

[MK26]

Actually, now that I think about it, the biggest reason I have trouble with Fox is because I play him on wifi. It's hard to stop his speed when you can't react instantly. Falco is not as fast, and therefore easier for me. And wolf is lame.

Anyway, people don't seem to understand that Fox and Wolf can use Reflector after the first fthrow->uair to interrupt your combo. It works every time. The way I've found to get around this is to predict their reflector, and instead of grabbing after the first uair, shield the reflector and then grab. It should work.

Seriously though, with Fox zooming around the stage on wifi, you hafta understand my pain >_>
I don't see why Falco is harder than Fox. Sure his lasers are good, but you can just duck under them and force him to approach.
Also, short hop quad laser (the fourth one is a "silent" laser, it's badass)

And Wolf...might be easier offline, but I've played Wolves that think they're good on wifi because they spam fsmash, dsmash, and laser, and win. It's total bull****.

I'll put Wolf under questioned matchups, but should I credit it to you or Gonzo? Either way, we aren't touching Falco, we already debated him in the old thread. D3 is similarly immune. We can discuss them during their weeks, but theyre strictly off-limits during the discussion cleanup next week.

I just find it funny that Fox's and Falco's lazers are timed so perfectly that if a Kirby buffers a SHL perfectly, the last laser will be silent all the time. Sakurai favouritism much?


OK, now for the important part of the post:

I still dont have any input from the Marth mains on the stages. Any help would be appreciated. Also, do we want to spit out or swallow?

Also, the thread title is too long. I cant add "Sticky request" at the end. Hell, I cant even erase Marth and type "King Dedede" without it being too long. Thread naming competition is now open. Winner gets internet cookie and learns where the metaknight is hidden in my signature

 

[Steel]

Marth thrives on platform heavy stages like battlefield and lylat cruise. He isn't necessarily bad on any stage, cept maybe Japes if it is allowed.

 

[MK26]

Is Rainbow Cruise good to Marth? How about FD or the other neutrals? And if you were prohibited from picking neutrals, what would be your go-to counterpick?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ban BF, Lylat, and I dunno what else really.

Counter pick Rainbow Cruise, Delphino, and any stage where you can make use of your multi-jumps.

Basically platform stages are the enemy and stages where you can abuse your recovery are your friend.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I heard Marth is bad on Jungle Japes and I can imagine Kirby being good there...

 

[Collective of Bears]

I heard Marth is bad on Jungle Japes and I can imagine Kirby being good there...

This. If you can spike Marth into the rapids, her dismal horizontal recovery will be the death of her. Literally.

 

[~Shao~]

It looks like I shouldn't be taking Marth to battlefield =x Are smashville, halberd and yoshi's story good Marth stages? And is frigate orpheon a good counter-pick?

 

[Steel]

Yoshi's is probably his worst neutral, but he doesn't necessarily do bad on it. He is fine on smashville and pretty good on halberd vs light characters because of the low ceiling.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Holy crap... a cookie and i get to know where Metaknight is. Well lets see.... uhh..... hmmm... i say you just take out the "The NEW kirby" part and just make it Matchup rankings and guide.

It's not really new anymore, its kinda loss its fresh thread scent.

 

[TwilightKirby]

Forget you guys I gots my own cookies.

 

[~Gonzo~]

I heard Marth is bad on Jungle Japes and I can imagine Kirby being good there...

lol toasty has some vids of me in teams and perhaps singles utilizing Jungle Japes' river to gay opponents, needless to say this is a good counterpick period, i'll have the vids in the in the video thread as soon as he posts them up : )

 

[PinkMarshMallow]

Fun time at jungle japes =]

 

[Asdioh]

I'll put Wolf under questioned matchups, but should I credit it to you or Gonzo?

Huh?

Not me, I guess.

 

[~Gonzo~]

what about wolf?

 

[MK26]

o shi...i quoted the wrong person...that question was meant to be posed to Giovanni...
o well, wats done is done, Wolf is under questioned matchups as a possible 50-50, and DanGR wants the matchup thread people to add Shiek/Zelda to the mix

 

[~Gonzo~]

Wolf is definetly 50 - 50 where as Falco should be in the 55-45 box.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Thinking all those match ups are that close is pure ignorance. Are you speaking from personal experiences or what is actually on paper?

Steel i've fought this kirby before and trust me he is as beastly as he claims...i actually get worried when i have to fight him at times, he's the best kirby i've seen in a long time, he placed really high at gigs (florida's biggest monthly tournament) when watching him fight you'll believe that most of those fights are even, please don't down talk him, he's a really good kirby, i'd say the best i've seen in florida.

 

[Steel]

Steel i've fought this kirby before and trust me he is as beastly as he claims...i actually get worried when i have to fight him at times, he's the best kirby i've seen in a long time, he placed really high at gigs (florida's biggest monthly tournament) when watching him fight you'll believe that most of those fights are even, please don't down talk him, he's a really good kirby, i'd say the best i've seen in florida.

I'm not doubting his skill, but his skill with Kirby doesn't change the fact that if the two players were equally skilled Kirby simply doesn't have the proper tools to deal with certain characters.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Close...so very close...



So do you beat this HRNut on a regular basis? Or is it to other way around?

Who cares about their tipper precentage? A single one is all thats needed to kill you, and it kills a helluva lot faster than Kirby's F-smash

really? Vulcan jab? You're gonna spam that all match? I'd love to see that work.

And those matchup ratings make me laugh. "You simply have to know the character" maybe thats the thing, your opponents prob dont know how to play against Kirby...they may be good, butif they have no idea how their opponent works, they'll have a harder time



Yes. I am selfish. And I just realized that I lied. I may have to edit my signature.

i'm gonna have to agree with sheer, kirby's fsmash is a way better and more reliable kill move than marth fsmash, maybe if you play against a garbage kirby it isn't but, i guarantee that sheer will beat alot of these other marth mains who would deny that fact, look at it like this marth non-tippered forward smash won't kill at 100% however kirby fsmash fresh will always kill at 100%, so which one do you think sound more reliable???

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

I'm not doubting his skill, but his skill with Kirby doesn't change the fact that if the two players were equally skilled Kirby simply doesn't have the proper tools to deal with certain characters.

how often do you actuall meet two players that are equally skilled thought and do you think me and afro are equally skilled, if so i should've never beaten him with marth because of his advantage in that matchup

 

[Steel]

how often do you actuall meet two players that are equally skilled thought and do you think me and afro are equally skilled, if so i should've never beaten him with marth because of his advantage in that matchup

We're talking about match ups here, what would most likely happen hypothetically when we look at each characters moveset and what each can do in certain situations. 70:30 doesn't mean Kirby would never beat an equally skilled Marth (at top level play), he would just have a very hard time doing so.

 

[SheerMadness]

70:30 doesn't mean Kirby would never beat an equally skilled Marth (at top level play), he would just have a very hard time doing so.

And that simply isn't the case from my experience with with Marths. There are probably atleast 3 Marths in FL who are more skilled than me. One of them obviously being HRNut, one of them is in my crew, and another one who wins most team tournies. Why should I be able to go fairly even with all of them if its such a huge advantage for Marth?

Thnx for the support HRNut but I'm not going to get anywhere arguing this. I'm basically arguing against a bunch of Kirbies who get owned by Marth and a couple Marths who own Kirby. It's a dead end.

 

[Tenki]

Snake correction.

*You can quickly find the character you're looking for by pressing Ctrl+F and typing the name of the character in square brackets*

Disadvantage (40-60)

[Snake]

Discussion: Page 1 to page 2



Completely self-made template:

On a silly note, you didn't take U-tilt in as one of his kill moves.

 

[MK26]

Pros+Cons:
+Neutral A combo, F-tilt, and U-tilt are all potentially kill moves

...

Watch out for:
- U-tilt - Snake’s primary kill move, the u-tilt can kill at 100% when fresh, without DI. Did I mention the incredibly broken invisible hitbox?

lrn2readn00b

lol jk

in other news, im starting to think this match isnt a large disadvantage after all...

And I'd like to apologize to Sheer for being a *****
Thanks HRNut for your input

 

[~Gonzo~]

this match is defintely 50-50. Kirby's agility and great aerial game means u can keep keep snake in the air for as long as u want. Also i keep saying this, utilize kirby's grab range to grab chase people. I seriously down thru a person 8 times in a row in one match last tourney. Dthrow plus chase = serious damage. For example lets say were fighting snake on FD. They have 40 or 50 damage and i get a shield grab. I down throw. i have a few options now, aerial chase, wait for them to hit the ground, fake the aerial chase and take advantage of their air dodge. I use a combination of waiting and faking. If u wait u catch by surprise with the repeat grab, then u downthrow again and fake the chase, now they airdodge and u quickly get the grab, from here on out i wait and make sure i'm always in front of snake ready to shield grab. Dont go behind cuz Bair is fast and has a very large hitbox which will knock u out of grabbing distance. This utilized with good aerial chases plus grenades when ur just not in ur groove to save u seriously evens out the match if not gives Kirby the advantage. Not to mention all the other gay things we can do with Kirby. 2X Bair to Inhale spit gimp. Utilt combos, our Fsmash goes straight through Snakes Jab which a lot of snake players use to space. Lol i know this isnt marth but my marth story is this. Change character to Snake, or ROB if ur good w/ him, or MK. Kirby just can't cut it when it comes to Marth.

 

[cAm8ooo]

haha nice new sig Gonzo..... if only....

 

[t!MmY]

I agree, Snake is close to 50-50 matchup.
But then again, I think so for Marth, too.

 

[skellitorman]

Finally a Marth player that can actually give some support on the issue. Thanks HRNUT. Believe it or not I was actually at one of the tournaments that you went to although I did not play you.

Also T!mmy and Sheer, I have been trying to give a lot of evidence of Marth being close to 50:50 so yea Sheer I don't find Marth to be too much of a problem because of how good I was in the Marth vs. Kirby match up (which I know a lot about) in Melee (which was a ton more difficult), although id say Marth has a slight advantage though.

As for Snake. The main reasons why I have so much trouble is that I can't reliably kill him when he is at KO percent. If I could reliably KO him then Id say that the match isn't too difficult because of his limited approach. Comboing him is a pain as well because of the grenade trick. He could pull out the grenade after I start a combo and blow us both up, which a good snake player did to me. This isn't too problematic though, because then you could just change your attacking patterns. Like I said though, the main thing is KOing him.