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The *NEW* Snake Matchup Discussion: #1 - Wario

Lord Chair

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i actually took the effort to explain how the matchup works in a legible, coherent and moreover insightful way. I'm not playing the academic here, you are, that's up to you. All you do is note both characters' options and assume that makes everyone understand how the MU works, nothing you state is practical and nothing seems to stem from actual experience.

If you expect me to elaborate on why I reject every single video in this thread then you are a fool. I have better things to do. There is a point when parties can agree to things because they are true, there is also a point when parties start discussing those things that are actually disputed. You aren't doing that, all you're doing is trying to make people back up their claims and actively derailing the topic by talking about credibility of claims.

Tell you one thing: there is no recent video material online that shows how this MU is to be played at a top level of play. Deal with it.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Please keep the long winded "I'm right, you're wrong" statements to a minimum and just discuss the facts of the MU. Those will speak for themseves.

I would at least wait for Attila to go farther in depth before breaking down his point of view.
 

Waymas

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Pretty much this match is even.. why?

Snake has more range than wario.. yea everyone know that.. But what can wario do? Bait snake everytime he can. Fair pokes work alot and the most important part on this match is you have to take him off stage so u can punish him , bite cypher etc etc. Also keep in mind wario can easily dodge his grenades. Also remember he can dthrow him to dtilt . Bite is really useful on this MU and the worst thing you can do here is DJ Dair cause that pretty much is a free pivot for snake. Tires can give wario some control on the stage!

Again 50-50
 

False

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Ally vs Glutonny isn't top level play..? And are you going to tell me that they're playing the MU wrong?

I think its different, not necessarily wrong. What works, works. An aggro Wario beat the undisbutably best Snake of that time.
 

C.J.

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[COLLAPSE="Slightly off topic, but I don't like false information being spread..."]
Can't say I've ever seen you admit defeat either, gheb.

Even when you say that snake beats Oli and d3, and no one agrees with you.

Slow down and let discussion take its place.

:phone:
I just have to say that Coney and Atomsk both think that at top level DDD loses the MU or is, at worst for Snake, even. Fatal thinks the MU is even/Snake's favor. Havok believes it's even iirc.

Oli- I believe Razer thinks it is even, I know that for awhile records between shu and nietono/brood were about even or in Shu's favor.

That's not to say that Gheb isn't stubborn- he is, nor is it to say what those MUs are or are not. Just that people do agree with Gheb on this issue and I'm pretty sure that people have told you that there are some top players that agree with him as well.

/leaves[/COLLAPSE]

On topic, if you really want to dissect the MU as well as possible, you should really stop focusing on summaries of the MU and instead focus on aspects of the MU. Make a community guide.

Grenades:
How to use them

Problem moves:
Issues that specific moves wario has presents and how to deal with them.

Offstage game:
What should you be doing when Wario is offstage?
How do you get back when you are?
What are the best options that you have to deal with your opponent's most likely option choices.

And so forth. I don't really like referencing myself as an example, but, I really think that looking at a MU the way that I started to do for the Marth boards is the best way to go about them:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309846
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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An example that I analysed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MEHOxEWWo#t=48m15s

Razer vs. Ally in the Genesis 2 Crew Battle. IMO these guys probably play the matchup the best; it's a pity there aren't any more matches like this. Ally spends a lot of time, even when he is losing, camping Razer. There are multiple times where long periods of time pass where no damage is taken by either party. And this, is how I think think, the matchup is best played.

Watching the match, I took note of the respective punishes of the two parties. I calculated the damage taken before a neutral position is restored. This is documented below:

Ally

1.40%
2.13%
3.11%
4.9%
5.37%
6.12%
7.37%

- Killed Razer @ 159%

8.74%
9.13%
10.9%
11.13%
12.12%
13.20% (Grenade Trade)
14.20%
15.17%

- Killed Razer @ 179%

16.21%
17.10%
18.61%

- Killed Razer @ 92%


Razer

1.28%
2.23%
3.11%
4.14%
5.11%
6.11%
7.16% (Grabx1)
8.10%

- Killed Ally @ 136%

9.14% (Grabx2)
10.38% (Grabx1)
11.13% (Grenade Trade)
12.13% (Grenade)
13.15% (Grenade)
14.13% (Grenade)
15.13%

- Killed Ally @ 133%

16.4%


First, notice how high the damage output on some of Ally's punishes are. Once he put the pressure on at low percents, Razer ate a truckload of damage. Razer needed to generate a lot more punishes to cause the same effect, even though Wario was generally dying earlier (one could probably attribute this to Wario's ability to reset bad situations easily). If you look at the numbers, 16 punishes generated 2 stocks and 4% for Razer, but with just two more, Ally took the match. This is pretty significant. Especially considering that Razer could potentially die earlier (on the first two stocks), while Ally basically died as early as possible. If Razer did not hit with his kill moves at the right time, or if Ally hit with his earlier, this number slides even further into Wario's favour, although it could not favour Razer any more.

Second, notice how few grenades hit Ally (I did not count incedental collisions with the grenade hurtboxes). 4 times, one of which was a beneficial trade. None in the first stock. Grenades aren't especially handy.

Third, Razer netted 4 grabs total; one came from a tech chase, two of which resulted to nothing, and the other comboed into a grenade (which all could have been, shielded). Note that Ally was never grabbed at kill percent; the grab is avoidable when the player is careful enough.

Fourth, I can't properly explain why Razer lived so long on the first two stocks. Nor can I explain why Ally died so early. This video doesn't directly support my status here. But the last stock definitely highlighted that Wario can kill much earlier than Snake can.

Fifth, there was no timer, since it was a crew battle. This halted the timeout option. But given the large periods without damage, a timeout would not be out of the question if it was aimed for.

Sixth, the one FH Nair that was used got punished by a slightly charged Fsmash.

That's more or less all I have to say about the match at this time. I would be interested in performing a similar analysis of one of Gluttony's matches too, when I get the time. Although he is notoriously aggressive across all mus, which is not how the character has to be played here.

Even if you don't agree that it's Wario's favour, you have to concede that Wario can really mess Snake up, and that Wario has the required tools to get around Snake.
 

Lord Chair

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Ally vs Glutonny isn't top level play..? And are you going to tell me that they're playing the MU wrong?

I think its different, not necessarily wrong. What works, works. An aggro Wario beat the undisbutably best Snake of that time.
2 years ago is recent?
 

False

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My win against Hungerr as well?

Shmot brings a lot of hard evidence. I'll give my own proof later. As of now, we should probably agree to work on how to beat Wario rather than argue on ratios.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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My win against Hungerr as well?

Shmot brings a lot of hard evidence. I'll give my own proof later. As of now, we should probably agree to work on how to beat Wario rather than argue on ratios.
This is a good idea.

I reckon:

- lots and lots of pivot grab. much more than other mus. can stop frontal approaches without any possibility of being punished.
- utilt to beat/trade with high dair approaches. just try not to get baited.
- practice timing the punish on his spotdodge; it's one of the best.
- risky tactics that don't result in a heavy reward will probably not be worth it. wario can punish much harder than we can.
- staying under platforms can make it difficult for him to approach.
- WATCH THE CLOCK. waft is an obvious move. sometimes its unavoidable (when he combos into it), but most of the time, you should know that it's coming.
- cover platforms with mines/c4s
 

~ Gheb ~

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I would add never spotdodging and almost never shielding onto that list.

Even if you don't agree that it's Wario's favour, you have to concede that Wario can really mess Snake up, and that Wario has the required tools to get around Snake.
Nobody's denying that. But even then, what you showed us here was a single game and not a whole set. In addition it went to last stock mid-% even though Razer got hit rather unnecessarily by clap -> fart. As much as it proves your point that it's hard to get back once you lose to lead it doesn't really back-up any claims that Wario has the ability to pull such things off consistently, nor does it show how Wario is supposed to obtain a lead without pulling off such a huge combo.

Olaf, I don't care what you think about my methodology lol. I'm asking you to show me somebody playing this match-up "right". If you can't do that I simply have no reason to take your claims that the others are "doing it wrong" serious. You may or may not have a problem with it, I certainly don't.

:059:
 

False

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Okay we're on the ledge, what do we do? Well spaced bites beats get up, get up attack, and ledge jump. Rolling is the only way out of it. You need to be extremely patient. Chill on the ledge and time the end lag of bite with a melee get up or mix up.

How do you snakes edge guard wario? Every wario I played rides the bike well above our mortars and grenades reach, so yeah.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I would be more worried about F-Tilt and F-Air if I were you. F-Tilt covers a bunch of options and actually deals damage/knockback. F-Air eats your upward momentum and puts you in a position to get punished harder.

Jumping from the ledge is useful, as long as you try to keep your double-jump intact.
 

False

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IHmm, I see. Also theoretically, if we get bit out of anything we can DI so there are no follow ups; we can expend our double jump and recover high and wave bounce to land safely.

We should also discuss what to do when we are pressured on one edge of the stage. Warios love to weave and wait for our roll/spot dodge/mistake. I suggest turning your back to Wario, taking out a nade and walking backwards while shielding on reaction. Even warios fair pokes will blow him up. What do warios think about this?
 

tedeth

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While your commitment is admirable you have to realize that your logic is kind of backwards. Out of the 4 recent sets posted in this thread Snake wins 3 of them ... are you assuming that they all did it wrong and that Tedeth of all Warios in the world is the only one who does it right because he beats you? How much more do you need to see until you're able to accept that you might just be wrong here?

:059:
Yes. I am the only one who does it right.

All other Warios are just bayud.

lolololololol. :p



EDIT: I actually think the MU is 0 but what do I know I'm not from America so it doesn't matter hur hur hur.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I like using Havok's Run to Pivot Nade trick since it puts our back to Wario as well. Particularly useful when you suspect they'll attempt to punish you for running at them. I think it has its uses in this MU as well.
 

xzx

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As a Wario main, I say this:

First, I don't know why the heck this MU is considered 50/50. It's not. I know that Wario's bite ***** Snake if it actually hits the cypher during Snake's recovery, and that Wario can dodge Snake's grenades, but it all ends here. Wario's range is almost nothing compared to Snake's, and Snake can kill Wario easily than vice versa (if excluding farting, especially when Snake is recovering + biting his cypher during recovery).

Snake's range and hitboxes are so stupid that sometimes we can't even trade hits, and in some areas Snake is faster than us! >_> And on top of that, Snake has that annoying grab-release on us. Snake's grab range is annoyingly big, not to mention his pivot one. Seriously, we have to be utterly careful against Snake, and Wario must space like an idiot against him. It's great that we have a better aerial game and offstage game than Snake, luckily. And our tires should work well against Snake I think?

Spacing and finding openings against Snake is key here, and getting him offstage is a great opportunity to wall him and gimp him. The only thing Snake has to worry about (against Wario) is coming offstage and Wario's aerials. Ugh, I hate Snake and can't see this MU 50/50 at all. I would say it's -1 to us, mainly because of:

Snake's range >>> Wario's range
 

Neon!

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My opinion of this matchup has changed a lot recently, after watching ally v razer and malcolm v false I belive it is 55:45 in wario's favor (at top level) at an intermediate level its probably even or slightly in snake's favor. As shmot pointed out the best wario's know how to avoid grenades and net early kills off of farts which is easy to do when snake is recovering. Snake's ground game alone cant win him the match, wario's superior air mobility forces snake into many situations where he will have to overcommit or roll away.

The matchup chart should continue to show that the matchup is 0 since, 55:45 is to small of a difference.
 

JTsm

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Glad that there's some recent discussion about this MU. I'll just be lurking if anything comes up.

Good **** Tech :)
 

**Havok**

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I think this MU is mayyyyybe slightly in Snakes favor.

I place it in the pivot grab to downthrow, you can literally react on the downthrow getup choices. More so in a corner of a stage.

I kinda disagree that grenades are useless, grenades have too many variables to EVER be useless. You can cook one, throw it, follow it, and react from there. ETC ETC. Wayyyy too many variables, unless of course all you do is simply...throw them and hope they'll connect. :(

I used to think Nair was pretty good in the MU... not anymore, it's too obvious. And the setup is obvious too. A mixup at best but nothing to rely on.

I read earlier that It isnt random Bairs that make them good, its smart Bairs... Smart Bairs ARE random bairs, Snake telegraphs a lot so its important to do them literally randomly. This sorta applies to Snake aerials in general anyways so...

Jab can sometimes nab a wario floating right in from of you.

DIO does something amazing that was really hard to notice at first when I watched his video. Ok the crouching is straight up awesome but its the turnaround Uptilt that caught me by surprise. It still covers above you anyway and covers the crossup. Funny.

DIO makes it seem like Downtilt has a place in the MU.

And Ftilting x1 on their shield at a certain distance can provide good pressure.

Motarslide gets you out of dicey situations. Backwards grenades stops any aerials on your shield.
 

JTsm

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Yo, that down tilt was really random on the first game. I guess it's a good alternative to up-tilt if it's not fresh. Nobody hardly uses down-tilt so it's a little underrated.
 

KuroganeHammer

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The non-spiking part of fair could kill even earlier. But then, it's not guaranteed so it's most likely not a very good option from a grab release.

And yeah, bair might kill earlier seeing as it does an extra 2% damage, which affects knockback a lot more than the extra 5 KBG that uair does.

Uair also has a lame trajectory. lol
 
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Well, its up to you all to decide what move you consider to use from air release. I simply care more about results which can be generalized and repeated constantly with the best results.

Nair is completely S/DI dependent and stage distance dependent. Fair is too slow. Bair depends completely upon your distance from the stage edge. Dash attack (strong) on FD, air release on MK, with best survival, kills between ~139% to ~160%. That's a huge percentage difference and only for a single stage. I imagine something like that would happen with Wario. The distance from stage to ceiling is the same throughout the stage and only gets better results the higher up from the stage floor you are (i.e. platforms).

If I get a grab on Wario, then I can know for certain at what percentages I can kill him at by using Uair/Utilt and it be guaranteed. Stage ceiling heights are pretty similar and do no differ a great deal. I know a rough percent at which Wario will die to Utilt/Uair on FD/BF/SV. Adjust slightly due to stage ceiling and I know I can take a stock, or know that I would get better result from Dthrow -> Utilt attempt.

I guess if I was very close to the stage ledge and Wario was at 100% I would consider Bair. But I really have no idea unless I was put into that situation a ton to really get a feel for it.
 

False

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I also feel like I should tell those who don't know that our usmash gets beaten out by Wario's dair. Rely on utilt as the anti air in this MU imo.

Grenade drop + bair while picking it up is amazing in this MU. It interrupts them with their weaving in the air if used correctly and if they decide to punish it you'll most likely be trading with them. It's not that high of a risk and the reward is pretty well worth it.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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So we've had a good amount of discussion.

Please submit your final ratios/numbers. Just submit it in the form used in the OP.

Afterwards I will write up a summary and showcase the most relevant and informative points.

I'm going with 0 (even) for this one.
 

~ Gheb ~

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If there's a character that has an advantage in this match-up it has to be Snake. But it's probably just straight even anyway.

:059:
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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After midnight EST, I will be finalizing the ratio and then moving on from there. Tomorrow, I'll start the Olimar discussion since we have seemed to reached a conclusion to this discussion. It looks like we're gong with Even for this one.
 
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I suggest you completely skip the whole ratio. That brings a horrible habit to match-ups threads. I mean more people end up discussing a number than how to play a match-up.
 
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