The *NEW* Snake Matchup Discussion Index

[JTsm]

Snake loses 45-55 to olimar, its not that bad. I used to think it was slightly worse but Razer has changed my mind, he's far better at the matchup than any other snake.

When it comes to most matchups I like to make 2 different charts, one that is optimistic for my character and one that is pessimistic. These ratios represent the highest or lowest numbers that I believe could realistically be argued for the matchup.

(Optimistic for Snake)
45-55 MK
55-45 IC
50-50 Olimar
50-50 DDD
55-45 Falco
50-50 Marth
55-45 Wario
55-45 Ike

(Pessimistic for Snake)
40-60 MK
45-55 IC
40-60 Olimar
40-60 DDD
45-55 Falco
40-60 Marth
45-55 Wario
45-55 Ike

Even if we accept all of the pessimistic ratios, they're still slight disadvantages. Pika still has even or slightly disadvantageous matchups against characters as bad as Ness, Peach, and Kirby, and borderline characters like GW, TL, and Lucario.

I like how the optimistic list is more accurate than the pessimistic list (except DDD since he can easily destroy you).

The pessimistic list is just depressing. lol. Everything is negative for Snake... I just can't see Ike, Wario, or Falco being negative. Sure most of these MU's are hard, but it's deff doable. There are some Negatives like Marth, DDD, MK, Pika, and maybe Oli, but it's not terrible at all. I see Pika and he has -2 MU with IC. Esam mains IC's to counteract that negative MU. For us, we can deff be solo and just main Snake, but it really comes down to a matter of preference. I'm always thinking of trying a different main because Snake's MU's can get difficult. I'm recently trying GW for characters like DDD and Pika just because I feel like I can play those specific MU's better. You can always just do an Ally and go MK/Snake, but MK is just boring. lol.

 

[Neon!]

(Pessimistic)
Pikachu has losing MUs to MK, ICs, Diddy, Lucario Olimar, G&W, and Peach

(Optimistic)
Pikachu has losing MUs to Diddy, Lucario, and Olimar.

Looks a hell of a lot better than yours.

You didnt give any specifics, at least I mentioned actual numbers. If suppose I could simplify my opinions as well.

Pessimistic:
Snakes loses to MK, Olimar, DDD, Marth, Pika, and Falco.

Optimistic:
Snake loses to MK, Pika and Olimar.

 

[MVD]

You didnt give any specifics, at least I mentioned actual numbers. If suppose I could simplify my opinions as well.

Pessimistic:
Snakes loses to MK, Olimar, DDD, Marth, Pika, and Falco.

Optimistic:
Snake loses to MK, Pika and Olimar.

But snake does lose to DDD and marth and some other ppl too

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@_@ Pika/ICs is not -2, dafuq.

Also, the last time a solo snake main did well at a tournament was....Top 8 for Razer at Apex/WHOBO4? Damn, that's a good *** character

And whatever, I'll do #s (as if it matters)

Pessimistic

MK 45:55
ICs 45:55
Olimar 40:60
Lucario 45:55
Diddy 40:60
G&W 45:55
Peach 45:55
Optimistic

MK: 50:50
ICs: 50:50
Olimar: 45:55
LUcario: 50:50
Diddy: 45:55
G&W: 55:45
Peach: 50:50

Realistic
MK: 45:55
ICs: 45:55
Olimar: 40:60
Diddy: 45:55
Lucario: 50:50
G&W: 55:45
Peach: 50:50

Snake doesn't win any MUs on relevant characters (ICs is even, Wario is semi-relevant and could be even). He loses or potentially loses to the most popular characters at high level (MK, Olimar, Falco)
Pikachu wins most relevant MUs and has the best MK MU (He beats Snake, ***** Falco, beats Wario) and loses to two of the common characters (Olimar and ICs).
Snake has a lot of questionably even MUs at high tier and has a lot of randomly difficult MUs in low tier
Pikachu has a lot of positive top/high tier MUs, and only has one difficulty in mid-tier (Peach)

 

[Neon!]

@_@ Pika/ICs is not -2, dafuq.

Also, the last time a solo snake main did well at a tournament was....Top 8 for Razer at Apex/WHOBO4? Damn, that's a good *** character

And whatever, I'll do #s (as if it matters)

Pessimistic

MK 45:55
ICs 45:55
Olimar 40:60
Lucario 45:55
Diddy 40:60
G&W 45:55
Peach 45:55
Optimistic

MK: 50:50
ICs: 50:50
Olimar: 45:55
LUcario: 50:50
Diddy: 45:55
G&W: 55:45
Peach: 50:50

Realistic
MK: 45:55
ICs: 45:55
Olimar: 40:60
Diddy: 45:55
Lucario: 50:50
G&W: 55:45
Peach: 50:50

Snake doesn't win any MUs on relevant characters (ICs is even, Wario is semi-relevant and could be even). He loses or potentially loses to the most popular characters at high level (MK, Olimar, Falco)
Pikachu wins most relevant MUs and has the best MK MU (He beats Snake, ***** Falco, beats Wario) and loses to two of the common characters (Olimar and ICs).
Snake has a lot of questionably even MUs at high tier and has a lot of randomly difficult MUs in low tier
Pikachu has a lot of positive top/high tier MUs, and only has one difficulty in mid-tier (Peach)

The only reason you've done so well recently is because of your IC's. Snake is almost universally recognized as a better solo main character than pikachu. Ally's recent return to snake has made me re-think a couple matchups, especially MK after seeing him solidly beat M2K and Nairo at Dissention 3 months ago. Both Pika and Snake lose to MK 45-55 at the highest level of play. Snake does slightly better against Olimar and IC's than Pika and significantly better against Diddy.

 

[Attila_]

love non-snake mains having a high level discussion about character matchups THEY'VE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE.

ggs guys.

esam, i know you're good, but you ain't no snake main.

not that this conversation makes any difference to anything. we need to discuss how to actually play this mus. yo esam, tell us how to beat pikachu <3

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hope you don't play me, the other ones are ***.

 

[MVD]

love non-snake mains having a high level discussion about character matchups THEY'VE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE.

ggs guys.

esam, i know you're good, but you ain't no snake main.

not that this conversation makes any difference to anything. we need to discuss how to actually play this mus. yo esam, tell us how to beat pikachu <3

are you kidding we all discuss out character MUs together down here so we all know the ins and outs of each character

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo is ryo that good that now snake loses to ike? of course he issssssss
It's not a bad match up for snake at all its like +1 for snake. Ike is just a character who can easily blow bad snakes/ inexperienced snakes up so it looks really good for him lol.

Olimar is 50-50. Dabuz has kinda mollywopped every snake player in NA from what I know but Ultimate Razer has beaten all the others and during his and dabuzs $100 MM it went to last game and was relativity close. Japan snakes also go for broke against the japanese olimars and beat em up

Ic's is +1 but its really easy to choke against them. I feel that once na snakes stop getting nervous it'll start looking a lot less even.

DDD is also 50-50... maybe 45-55.

Diddy is also 50-50. He can juggle us and punish our landings really well but if he stales his kill moves he's never killing snake lol. Mu usually goes diddy kong combo videos snake till like 110% and loses his first stock anyways because he made 1 mistake and let snake recover. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNyyJt11WdY

+1 wario, -1 falco, .... marth, top level play is probably -1 vs mk, -2 or worse at the lower levels.

As much as I hate to admit it snake vs pikachu is probably like...-2.

Also, the last time a solo snake main did well at a tournament was....Top 8 for Razer at Apex/WHOBO4? Damn, that's a good *** character

Only counting majors there's that and Fatal getting 4th at revelations. Snake mains performance at Sktar was...

 

[Neon!]

love non-snake mains having a high level discussion about character matchups THEY'VE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE.

ggs guys.

esam, i know you're good, but you ain't no snake main.

not that this conversation makes any difference to anything. we need to discuss how to actually play this mus. yo esam, tell us how to beat pikachu <3

As a former/current DK main I can tell you anything you want to know about that matchup.

 

[Attila_]

i always thought snake beats dk, but dk can punish snake harder than most characters. he's too fat to get around a solid camp game, but if he does, snake could be in trouble.

if snake's recovery is predicted, he could die really, really early. that being said, dk also has a hard time getting to the ledge. c4 + bair is 2g is this mu.

that's how i feel about it anyway. any thoughts?

 

[Neon!]

i always thought snake beats dk, but dk can punish snake harder than most characters. he's too fat to get around a solid camp game, but if he does, snake could be in trouble.

if snake's recovery is predicted, he could die really, really early. that being said, dk also has a hard time getting to the ledge. c4 + bair is 2g is this mu.

that's how i feel about it anyway. any thoughts?

It's 55-45 in snakes favor, DK's large frame and the fact that many of his moves extend his hurtbox make it fairly easy to trap him with grenades. As with marth, Snake must di DK's aerials correctly at mid-low percents otherwise he could end up taking 50+ damage easily offstage or an early death.

I could go on and on about this matchup but I dont see the use. Along with Ike, its Snake's hardest mid tier matchup and one that often catches snake players offguard. At mid-high level play it could probably be argued as even but at top level play Snake has a slight advantage.

 

[Wilmenz]

I don't understand how Ike gives Snake so much trouble?

 

[MVD]

I don't understand how Ike gives Snake so much trouble?

Yeah nobody but me and FL knows that

 

[C.J.]

That's not true, MVD. Texas knows that now too.

 

[MVD]

That's not true, MVD. Texas knows that now too.

Not even lol that was their first time playing and he's gotten better at the MU since then lol

 

[GOofyGV]

@ ESAM
Is Pikachu really better vs mk then IC's or Falco?
and if so how do you think about this with JPN ruleset?

 

[C.J.]

Yeah but San also has a good record vs TX snakes as well. At the very least razer knows how hard the mu is.
Ryo gets hit by jab utilt a LOT btw Jesse. I was playing him last weekend and every game I won was off of that lol.

 

[MVD]

Yeah but San also has a good record vs TX snakes as well. At the very least razer knows how hard the mu is.
Ryo gets hit by jab utilt a LOT btw Jesse. I was playing him last weekend and every game I won was off of that lol.

Hmm I'll take that into consideration, that MU is so dumb x.x

 

[C.J.]

It's not guaranteed usually (specific parts of the jab hitbox and percents withstanding), but it kept working so oh well.

 

[Kuro~]

It's never literally guaranteed unless u jab em while in the air. But it's a decent enough mix-up. Crouching is godlike vs ike.

 

[MVD]

It's never literally guaranteed unless u jab em while in the air. But it's a decent enough mix-up. Crouching is godlike vs ike.

Godlike if you wanna extend his fair distance

 

[Kuro~]

Lol u do know if ur crouching and he fairs u can perfect shield it everytime cuz of the mechanics interactions, right?

 

[Dekillsage]

I just turn around press b and block lol. Fair's slow

 

[Kuro~]

Lol fair isn't the reason crouch is godlike. I was just countering mvd's point as to why he thinks i'm wrong.

 

[Jrugs]

+1,2,3,4, IDGAF. can be +1 against and for all I care. Hell a snake can probably win apex 2013 even. This character will always be solid crap in my eyes.

 

[Dekillsage]

top tiers sure do suck huh?

 

[Jrugs]

They do when they're snake

 

[Crackle]

When it comes to Snake v Falco/Pika/MK I honestly don't understand why Snake has a chance at top level play. Watching videos doesn't seem to enlighten much to this either.

 

[Jrugs]

I feel that every day when I watch vids, like without the top 3 snake alone doesnt have a chance, however................snake is still a great character, Fatal beat nairo, who knows, snake might surprise us at Apex 2013

 

[Crackle]

I hope so. Like even when Ally beats M2K I am like "I don't see how he even was winning at any point"

 

[False]

Snake can most definitely beat Falco, lol

 

[Attila_]

I hope so. Like even when Ally beats M2K I am like "I don't see how he even was winning at any point"

Seconded for truth.

 

[Neon!]

I hope so. Like even when Ally beats M2K I am like "I don't see how he even was winning at any point"

Snake is like that versus many characters, he can be easy to take advantage in the air but his weight and unique ability to trade hits with grenades make him a trademark comeback character. Many snake players let the momentum get to them, proper DI and defensive aerial maneuvering is key. When your being juggled as snake knowing when to pull a grenade, when to B-reverse, when to bair and when to cypher is important. Knowing how to mix up these options makes snake much more difficult to chase in the air.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you play snake and you're gonna get discouraged because you keep getting hit then change characters lol. Trading attacks with grenades is good at like the higher %'s but at low % its pretty bad. Unless you're fighting a chaingrab character who isn't ddd you don't want to do the trade that does like 30+% to you and 12% to them. Especially without port... situation suxxx.

I never really feel discouraged or like I can't win unless I'm fighting metaknight and that's only when he has a stock lead lol. He can stays so safe aarggg hate it Always give props to the snakes who remain so solid in this match up

 

[Crackle]

Well at the level of play of like powerranked 1-5 players, Snake just seems too dependent on "messups" to be viable against the characters I mentioned. I'm having a lot more success just using random neutral matchups against Metaknight, Falco and Pikachu. Then again I used to think Marth impossible until I started destroying good Marths..

 

[clowsui]

No good marths live in cencal. stop it

 

[mikeray4]

I didn't lose to peach last time I played one...

Also, Snake kinda does get countered by Olimar, ICs and Diddy are even, and you also lose to D3, Falco, Marth, Wario, MK, and Ike.

You lost to Nicole


Take a seat over here mr. Electric Sam

 

[Bonds]

We have a grab release chaingrab on falco and a really good dthrow on him too. Why doesn't anyone grab release to the edge and then dthrow and grab release him back to the other end of the stage? Seems to me like falco would be pretty easy if we were abusing those options.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Smash players are lazy and think it's too situational? o-o I usually forget I can do that lol. I'll try and practice it today. :D