The New Tier List

[Lovage]

Firstly, nobody get mad at me if you don't like the ranks, since this based on the community's opinion and not mine, but if you disliked my leadership, criticize away.

Well, we have a fair number of player saying that it should look like this;

S: Pikachu, Fox
A: Kirby, Falcon, Mario
B: Yoshi, DK, Jigglypuff, Ness
C: Luigi, Link, Samus

entirely for display purposes. I could care less, but I don't really feel like triggering another war. All in favor of the Tier List display change?

YES that's a better and more encouraging tier list
fox is also 3 times harder to plan in online smash than regular smash

 

[Gea]

why you copying brawl noobs

jk dont care

You do realize most fighting games use SABCD rather than "Top Upper High Mid Lower Bottom" right?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Ha, and people say Yoshi was bad in all the Smash Bros, they need to play SSB64. XD ☆

☆ Though Kirby losing his placement makes me sad though. )= ☆

 

[ballin4life]

Kirby is still super cheap and better than fox unless you're really good.

 

[Deleted member]

You do realize most fighting games use SABCD rather than "Top Upper High Mid Lower Bottom" right?

yeah i know

so

 

[Llumys]

Smash isn't "most fighting games".

(:

 

[Frogles]

coughfoxbelongsinacough

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

I think ness should be just before yoshi on tier.

 

[Frogles]

the tier list is based on the match-up chart so putting ness before yoshi wouldn't make sense.

and come on someone at least explain why fox is in top with pika. i looked over the matchup thread and there was no reasoning behind it at all. people just liked the way it looked or something.

 

[SheerMadness]

Why do u hate Fox being top so much hot dogles? Only matchup hes disadvantaged in the whole game is vs pikachu on dreamland.

 

[Frogles]

because fox has a weakness in fall speed and in his recovery and can at least be counterpicked on dreamland whereas pika has no weaknesses to exploit and has advantage on every stage. doesnt make sense to group fox along with pika.

 

[DMoogle]

Why do u hate Fox being top so much hot dogles? Only matchup hes disadvantaged in the whole game is vs pikachu on dreamland.

I agree.

I think the primary reason was that he and Pikachu are the only two that have huge edges over some other characters (shown by the blue buttons on the match up chart).

 

[lordvaati]

and this isn't a sticky...why?

also, LOL@ Ness.

 

[MattNF]

I agree with Frog, pikachu should be in his own tier

 

[smash64]

say wut!

 

[Silk]

and this isn't a sticky...why?

also, LOL@ Ness.

Poor Ness.

And I think that question is not if Pika is in a league of his own, but rather if Fox has enough advantages to be considered above the other characters in such a way that he needs to be in the top (or S) tier.

 

[Nybb]

because fox has a weakness in fall speed and in his recovery and can at least be counterpicked on dreamland whereas pika has no weaknesses to exploit and has advantage on every stage. doesnt make sense to group fox along with pika.

This. Fox is much more punishable than Pika. Obviously in general neither character should be getting punished too often, but when it does happen, Fox is a lot more likely to die. I'm definitely glad to see him above Kirby where he belongs (his jab is a better character than Samus), but I don't think he's good enough to be in the same tier as Pika.

 

[dch111]

lol, The color scheme really makes C Tier unattractive. "caution: keep away!"

 

[Blue Yoshi]

TR4Q!!!

jk

We are arguing that there should be no bottom tier because it makes the bottom tier characters seem unusable... but if we make Pikachu in a tier of his own... won't we get the Meta Knight effect?

I say leave it as Pikachu and Fox in the same tier. They are undoubtedly the best two characters in the game anyways...

 

[Frogles]

do i have to keep repeating myself? fox has flaws. pika doesnt. pika is by far and away the best char. why should they be grouped together? because we don't want people thinking ssb has a meta knight?

 

[Kefit]

I think that people simply disagree with you, Frogles, no matter how much you keep repeating yourself.

Pika has plenty of flaws. Among other things, he's one of the most easily combo'd characters in the game, he's got a weak ground game (utilt is sadly not the answer to all of SSB64's ground issues), and his tech roll sucks. Once Pika loses the initiative and starts having the pressure applied to him he becomes very vulnerable because he has a very difficult time escaping when the opponent knows what he's doing.

Also, as Sheer described in a short lived thread a while ago, Pika isn't in a tier of his own in this game simply because he is too **** easy to kill. He's the best character in the game,, sure, but in the end he dies to combos just the same as everyone else. The gap is not that large, especially not between Pika and Fox.

 

[ballin4life]

Pika is not easily comboed (at least compared to falcon, link, fox, dk, ness, yoshi) and he has an invincible upb to escape anything.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

This. Fox is much more punishable than Pika. Obviously in general neither character should be getting punished too often, but when it does happen, Fox is a lot more likely to die. I'm definitely glad to see him above Kirby where he belongs (his jab is a better character than Samus), but I don't think he's good enough to be in the same tier as Pika.

hey! samus isnt as bad as u make her out to be. for example, being a floaty, its very hard for other characters such as fox to combo her even if her combos are very limited themselves. (and yes, samus can combo, even if they are 3-4 consecutive hits)

and ballin4life, pika's invincible upB isnt as good as samus' upB lol

upB ftw

 

[lordvaati]

TR4Q!!!

jk

We are arguing that there should be no bottom tier because it makes the bottom tier characters seem unusable... but if we make Pikachu in a tier of his own... won't we get the Meta Knight effect?

I say leave it as Pikachu and Fox in the same tier. They are undoubtedly the best two characters in the game anyways...

that's the thing though. while Meta is just a godly character with a low learning curve, Pika is an essentially an even godlier character who is just a helluva lot harder to use. Pikachu is the only character in the history of Smash Bros. to have flawless matchups (aka an advantage) over EVERYONE, which no character has ever done. ever. you guys just can't hide the fact that the best character is an S tier. it's not like he's a yellow Akuma, or anything(even if he is really **** close).

 

[NixxxoN]

WTF pikachu is not THAT good

He dies at low %
Most of his combos are not really the easiest to perform
His recovery can be tricky in some situations
He has not a good projectile like fox or mario
And IMO hes far from being the funniest char to use

Hes the best, but hes not in a tier of his own

All brawlers I know say that MK is way more broken

 

[Frogles]

Pika has plenty of flaws. Among other things, he's one of the most easily combo'd characters in the game

falcon, fox, yoshi, dk, link, mario, and ness say hi.

he's got a weak ground game (utilt is sadly not the answer to all of SSB64's ground issues)

pika has a GOOD ground game. utilt is extremely comboable and leads to grab on block. dtilt also leads to grab on block and sends at a nice angle. usmash is a strong reliable finisher that combos into thunder if it doesnt kill and fsmash is the best onstage edgeguard in the game. also has a long range grab. i dont understand how you could say he has a weak ground game.

and his tech roll sucks. Once Pika loses the initiative and starts having the pressure applied to him he becomes very vulnerable because he has a very difficult time escaping when the opponent knows what he's doing.

the same could be said about any character if the opponent knows what hes doing but pika has up b to escape non-legit combos.

Also, as Sheer described in a short lived thread a while ago, Pika isn't in a tier of his own in this game simply because he is too **** easy to kill. He's the best character in the game,, sure, but in the end he dies to combos just the same as everyone else. The gap is not that large, especially not between Pika and Fox.

easy to kill? pika has great priority in his attacks, hes fast, has up b to escape combos, and he has the best and least limited recovery in the game. ****er is hard to hit and very hard to edgeguard. his only flaw is his below average weight but it barely means anything because of all the **** he's got going for him.

 

[ballin4life]

Pika's advantages are large. However, they are easily overcome by being a better player. Pika doesn't have any one strategy or super overpowered move to spam (maybe throw? haha). Most of his combos are hard to set up too. The pikachu has to be smart and close to as good as the opponent to take advantage of how good of a character he is.

 

[DMoogle]

Pika doesn't have any one strategy... to spam

I agree that he isn't good enough to have his own tier, but I disagree with this.

A strategy of (1) get opponent off ledge, (2) edgeguard, is definitely overpowered. Pika's is probably the best at getting his opponent off of the ledge AND edgeguarding.

 

[ballin4life]

Well that's kinda the strategy for like every character (that or vertical kos i suppose). I meant like a specific tactic... like kirby spamming utilt.

 

[DMoogle]

Spamming up-tilt is a move. Trying to get your opponent off the ledge as often as possible is a strategy.

 

[Naisora]

Yesz! Captain Falcon on A! I think one of the best Characters in the game were Captain Falcon and Link. (2021 edit- Its funny seeing how you were when you were a kid. Damn)

 

[asianaussie]

Can we call the tiers Super God, God, Super Awesome and Awesome (because this is the only ssb we can do that with)?

Also, Link is awesome. He deserves to be in awesome tier with Samus and Luigi, who are fun to play.

 

[Ref]

i think this is the prefect way to explain the fact that most of the players who contributed to this chart, dont even know what we are looking at here!

How many people think this list should incorporate some things that you've seen only online....I know some of you did

It's also clear to see many people do not know at what level of play this tier is based on...i seen people saying jiggly can obliterate kirby because of an aerial approach and 0-death combos...does no one else see the problem here?

Regardless if you do or you do NOT this tier list/match-up chart will be further reviewed once we can actually see a BR in here...other then that....the legitimacy of the chart is questionable due to contributors not all being on the same page for the most part.

Sucks that I have to disagree with all of yous but it is what it is. I want to see a new tier list too but i think we need to properly gather our knowledge first then figure out the actual perimeters of what we are trying to create!

Ness' shield break ability is not as far fetched as you seem to think.

The funny thing is that this chart shows online game influence so you have to remember, fox gets credit for being hard to play online, but many other chars do not!

Fox, Yoshi, Ness, and a few others who have good approaches/combos that have smaller frames for canceling (Marios SH.Dair-->Uair) are all heavily influenced by INPUT DELAY, which would be one of the things looked at if we established a backroom.

If people only played console with each other...on the same scale of variety that we have online, Ness and Yoshi players would be so much better and more respected. (fox already has this)

I completely agree with these post... I pretty much only play console smash 64.


I also wanted to state that this game is probably the HARDEST to make a tier list for, Mainly because of Online vs. Offline, AND that because of the main key being not to get hit, we can sit and argue for days on end that X character will get a good hit in first over Y character, eventually it's just not going to work out well. You always have a chance of losing unless you can maintain perfection for longer. This perfection is done by simply by avoiding the opponent's hit boxes while trying to find a way to fit in your hits.

I really like smash 64 because everywhere i go i always seem to see a better/more experienced player win in it at the highest level OFFline. That was what has drawn me to the game and made me stay for so long. I rarely get to play people, I have a few times, and i realized that i do need to learn character styles and their hit boxes... Something that i only knew about Ness.

I began to start playing all the characters. And as i played them and continued with offline i got better and better.

Online causes problems, and this community seems to highly disregard it because it's one of the only ways they can actually play each other.

Offline gives us solid ground based off of what people can actually achieve without changing their timing due to input lag. I will still trust that the old tier list was closer to giving each character credit because it was made in a time Closer to when offline ssb was play, and not a time where Online has become the game.

My offline skill has never transferred to online. Until people actually get creditable players working offline constantly playing competitions for money, we won't actually know how that list is supposed to look.


You can't always look at now. Sometimes you have to look at the past to see the one change that caused certain characters to drop so low.

The answer is simple, We went from offline to Online. We changed our game by 5 input lag frames or more, and have a shrunken community.





All of this and I finally get why Isai never really talks about tiers. People can argue that this game is broken for it's lack of defensive options but I do believe that tiers are a lot easier to out play in this game. Therefore i don't really find a need to discuss them either... This will be my last post about tiers i guess.

I do intend to take my console smash 64 to tourneys and play new talent to improve my skills.

 

[Fireblaster]

BAWWW ONLINE SMASH
FAKE SMASH
CONSOLE ONLY FTW FTW FTW FTW

Did you really have to write 5 paragraph's worth of text to say this?

 

[Zen Yore]

falcon online = too good
fox online = crapzzzzzz

 

[lordvaati]

wow, way to bust his balls, Fireblaster. |:\

@Ref, I kind of see what you're saying. you are basically saying that the list should be based more on Matches at offline tournaments other then online. kind of makes sense (I mean, you don't see online play effecting Melee's list now, do you?), though even then, i don't think thee would be really drastic changes to the list. Pika would still be top, and Samus or Link would still be bottom, but I am curious of how it would affect hose in between.

 

[Daedatheus]

falcon online = too good
fox online = crapzzzzzz

This is too true. My fox gets ***** harder online and my Falcon ***** Foxes easier online.

...but @Ref: that doesn't change where Fox should be on the tier list because most of us also play console, too.

For someone who has barely touched online, I don't think you're qualified to comment on it. The most skilled players do most of their playing online, and the metagame doesn't change massively when switching back and forth between console and online.

 

[PoweredVolt]

Oh my god, a tier list people don't ***** about.

Good times. <3

 

[masterdrenin]

This list is quite interesting.

Much love for Smash 64 <3 yeee!

 

[JaimeHR]

This should be called "teh online SSB tier lizt"