The New Tier List

[asianaussie]

The problem with your argument is that you don't take into account what happens when your opponent knows what they're doing. She's most definitely not the best in game and quite likely the worst in terms of potential, even though she can easily win against an inexperienced or predictable opponent.

D-Air can be teched. If you don't know what teching is, you should learn about it. Charge Shots are good, I'll give you that. Samus's recovery is okay in terms of distance, and Up-B has good priority, but it can still be beaten fairly easily.

Samus has poor approach, and is incredibly susceptible to being camped. She has no reliable combos either, meaning that even if she lands a hit or two, the opponent can run and she can't follow up successfully. Most of her moves can be punished, and her recovery can be blocked quite easily.

 

[H0lyQuebec]

I say luigi should be in B and samus as well.

 

[Ellimist1221]

I think that my argument is thought out well enough considering I only fight people who know what they're doing. I understand teching, but I also know that when you hit someone with the "down a" move in the air regardless of wether they tech or not they are still under Samus and therefore susceptable to the move again. If someone is hit with that move while standing on the ground they bounce into the air and lose control for long enough to do whatever you want regardless of how well they know what they are doing. As far as Samus being "camped" there's the flamethrower move that people underestimate, it flinches opponents enough that it can provide time for Samus to recover. While many of her moves can be "punished" if a player understands that they can fight smart and avoid much of it.

 

[Mahie]

I think that my argument is thought out well enough considering I only fight people who know what they're doing. I understand teching, but I also know that when you hit someone with the "down a" move in the air regardless of wether they tech or not they are still under Samus and therefore susceptable to the move again. If someone is hit with that move while standing on the ground they bounce into the air and lose control for long enough to do whatever you want regardless of how well they know what they are doing. As far as Samus being "camped" there's the flamethrower move that people underestimate, it flinches opponents enough that it can provide time for Samus to recover. While many of her moves can be "punished" if a player understands that they can fight smart and avoid much of it.

What if your opponent is smart enough not to get hit by the Dair? Also the Flamethrower aka the Fair is kind of slow... and the priority isn't that good at all. Her floatiness makes it hard to have efficient combos and shield pressure, she has very few options overall, and once you know those options, it's really tough for Samus. Of course if you're smarter/better than the opponent, Samus will do some damage. But Tiers list is about potential, so that doesn't come in the making of the said tiers list.

 

[asianaussie]

I understand teching, but I also know that when you hit someone with the "down a" move in the air regardless of wether they tech or not they are still under Samus and therefore susceptable to the move again.

Ever heard of a tech roll...? You can't possibly expect them to just tech in place every time.

If someone is hit with that move while standing on the ground they bounce into the air and lose control for long enough to do whatever you want regardless of how well they know what they are doing.

What if they get out of the way? It's not hard to just pivot out of the way and punish, especially if you repeatedly try to do it.

As far as Samus being "camped" there's the flamethrower move that people underestimate, it flinches opponents enough that it can provide time for Samus to recover.

How do U-Air or F-Air flinch an opponent when they're camping? Camping means staying away and spamming projectiles. Admittedly, some projectiles can be cancelled with F-Air, but they still force you to approach, meaning you're automatically in a worse position.

While many of her moves can be "punished" if a player understands that they can fight smart and avoid much of it.

What if the other player fights 'smart'? What then?

The tier list is latent ability and potential, not 'I beat my friends with this character thus they are good'. I main Link and play an okay Samus, and I can win with both, but I can still see their shortcomings.

 

[Ellimist1221]

I don't get the whole potential thing, or all the factors that go into the making of the tiers. All I'm saying is that I have never had trouble playing with Samus. Yea there are a lot of what ifs in the game but Human skill, ability, and error have a lot to do with playing. It's not all about the milliseconds of recovery time or the shield pressure. I just don't think that Samus should be on the bottom.

 

[Mahie]

Potential means " What if the character is played at its best?". There is no missed technique and such taken into account. Also you may want to argue that Samus isn't in the bottom, but placing her above everybody is dumb. Another thing is that " You've never had any problem with Samus". Once again, this is not about the player, but about the character. If I could 5stock you equally with all characters ( This is just theory), would you put them all into the same tiers ? Of course not. Try playing better people online and you'll start seing where her short comings are.

 

[asianaussie]

Ok. Here's the deal. Tier lists are for the highest level of play. They do take human skill, ability or error into consideration, but only to a certain point. Things like teching out of the way from Samus's D-Air? Assumed.

It's nice that you use your favourite character, but in all honesty, if you don't understand tiers and potential, you shouldn't really comment like that. A tier list is universal. It doesn't take into account error and ability, because at higher levels that sort of thing is taken for granted. If tier lists took all levels of human skill into account, everyone would have their own tier list.

 

[Fireblaster]

There are moves like her "down a" that renders any character helpless either falling to the ground or bouncing up into the air and unable to move for just long enough to do her back kick in the air which will send the opponent flying off the stage almost regardless of how much damage they already have. There's the charge shot which is effective at launching opponents off the stage as well as doing up to 26% damage. Now using that charge shot is kind of scary when fighting against a fox or ness, but Samus is still able to maneuver around enough that it doesn't make that big of a difference. When Samus is sent flying off the stage she is able to float back from the brink of death almost effortlessly. Really for me it's more of a personal prefrence though, I've always fought with Samus and I know how to fight so that I come out on top.

Falcon is the strongest character.
There are moves like his "down a" that renders any character helpless either falling to the ground or bouncing up into the air and unable to move for just long enough to do his back fist in the air which will send the opponent flying off the stage almost regardless of how much damage they already have. There's the falcon punch which is effective at launching opponents off the stage as well as doing up to 26% damage. Now using that falcon punch is kind of scary when fighting against a fox or ness, but Falcon is still able to maneuver around enough that it doesn't make that big of a difference. When Falcon is sent flying off the stage he is able to recover back from the brink of death almost effortlessly. Really for me it's more of a personal prefrence though, I've always fought with Falcon and I know how to fight so that I come out on top.

Donkey Kong is the strongest character
There are moves like his "down a" that renders any character helpless either falling to the ground or bouncing up into the air and unable to move for just long enough to do his back kick in the air which will send the opponent flying off the stage almost regardless of how much damage they already have. There's the charge punch which is effective at launching opponents off the stage as well as doing up to 26% damage. Now using that charge punch is kind of scary when fighting against a fox or ness, but Donkey Kong is still able to maneuver around enough that it doesn't make that big of a difference. When Donkey Kong is sent flying off the stage he is able to float back from the brink of death almost effortlessly. Really for me it's more of a personal prefrence though, I've always fought with Donkey Kong and I know how to fight so that I come out on top.

Hey buddy, vague descriptions don't mean ****! THEY DON'T ****ING WORK. THEY ARE USELESS AND POINTLESS.

You know almost NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, about competitive smash. Go play online on kaillera for a few weeks, get your *** handed to you, and then maybe you'll know something instead of trying to argue against everyone here that's telling you you're wrong.

 

[Mahie]

You could have added Ness and his upB, although I'm not sure it does 26%

 

[Daedatheus]

Fireblaster may seem like a douche for proving a point the way he did, but he proved the point really well.

In any case, the best way for this point to be proved to you is to go online and play good players. Clearly your lack of experience in competetive smash shows (IE thinking Ness's slow-as-hell down+b is a threat to any good samus player), so rather than have the community berate you please attempt to understand that this tier list is derived from the theory and experience of players that are simply much better than you. If you cannot accept that there are many many players better than you, you shouldn't be playing Smash. I know when I play online I lose as much as I win, and I learn a lot either way - and I don't claim to be an absolute authority over an entire community that's worked together to create the most comprehensive tier list to date for an 11-year-old game.

Of course none of this matters because here you have admitted you don't understand how the tier list works:

I don't get the whole potential thing, or all the factors that go into the making of the tiers.

EDIT: Upon reading the other posts I hope this isn't a clever troll by someone from the other boards who knows how elitist the Smash64 boards are that even a simple single opinion about a character will cause an uproar XD

 

[DMoogle]

Ever heard of a tech roll...? You can't possibly expect them to just tech in place every time.

Funnily enough, I feel like half of online players tech in place WAY too much (and then like 10% tech roll away way too predictably).

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fireblaster may seem like a douche

True story

 

[NixxxoN]

>looks like someone has been on a rant corrected the 32493242390432942 internet's wrong comment

 

[dch111]

Samus is significantly better in teams than she is 1 on 1. Maybe he has mostly played Samus in teams or free-for-all (otherwise the weaknesses ought to show even before learning advanced techs or getting to high level play). The premise that the tier list is for 1 on 1 battles is sometimes overlooked.

While on the topic of tiers, I feel like Tiers B and C could really be merged. I don't see as much outclassing from C to B as from B to A.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

as a samus mainer, i will have to admit that samus does have very little approach options. she also has very little combo-ability. i get frustrated when my opponent is shielding and one of my best options is spamming f-smashes hoping to break a shield. its quite sad :'(

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ellimist, play against people online. You'll soon see that your strategies you mentioned don't work against people who know how to avoid them. Also, play against a good Fox or Pika, then you'll agree that Samus is not the best char. Either that, or you have found lots of amazing stuff about Samus that none of us know about... but either way, play online against people, and you'll get an idea of how good Samus is.

 

[Blackshadow]

Not to be a spoil sport or anything, but why wasn't Fireblaster warned for his last post, Blue Yoshi? There was a lot of blatant flaming in it, which was acknowledged by others who posted straight afterwards.

 

[hamburglar]

Not to be a spoil sport or anything, but why wasn't Fireblaster warned for his last post, Blue Yoshi? There was a lot of blatant flaming in it, which was acknowledged by others who posted straight afterwards.

i didn't think his post was flaming more so than just a harsh but effective way to get his point across. I wouldn't consider harsh posts with a purpose to be flaming. Mods shouldn't police politeness, imo.

 

[DMoogle]

i didn't think his post was flaming more so than just a harsh but effective way to get his point across. I wouldn't consider harsh posts with a purpose to be flaming. Mods shouldn't police politeness, imo.

+1. Telling it like it is, IMO.

 

[NixxxoN]

I disagree. Everyone has been ignorant once and everyone has the right to be taught politely. If someone cant do it politely then he should let someone else do it

 

[t3h Icy]

Why do you guys respond to tards?

 

[Parallax]

Falcon is the strongest character.
There are moves like his "down a" that renders any character helpless either falling to the ground or bouncing up into the air and unable to move for just long enough to do his back fist in the air which will send the opponent flying off the stage almost regardless of how much damage they already have. There's the falcon punch which is effective at launching opponents off the stage as well as doing up to 26% damage. Now using that falcon punch is kind of scary when fighting against a fox or ness, but Falcon is still able to maneuver around enough that it doesn't make that big of a difference. When Falcon is sent flying off the stage he is able to recover back from the brink of death almost effortlessly. Really for me it's more of a personal prefrence though, I've always fought with Falcon and I know how to fight so that I come out on top.

Donkey Kong is the strongest character
There are moves like his "down a" that renders any character helpless either falling to the ground or bouncing up into the air and unable to move for just long enough to do his back kick in the air which will send the opponent flying off the stage almost regardless of how much damage they already have. There's the charge punch which is effective at launching opponents off the stage as well as doing up to 26% damage. Now using that charge punch is kind of scary when fighting against a fox or ness, but Donkey Kong is still able to maneuver around enough that it doesn't make that big of a difference. When Donkey Kong is sent flying off the stage he is able to float back from the brink of death almost effortlessly. Really for me it's more of a personal prefrence though, I've always fought with Donkey Kong and I know how to fight so that I come out on top.

Pure win...

 

[hamburglar]

I disagree. Everyone has been ignorant once and everyone has the right to be taught politely. If someone cant do it politely then he should let someone else do it

i agree
i'm a big advocate for politeness but being rude and flaming are a lot different. my argument was that no one should receive an infraction purely for being impolite, as long as the post has a purpose, is informative, and is not excessively flagrant for no reason.

 

[Fireblaster]

I disagree. Everyone has been ignorant once and everyone has the right to be taught politely. If someone cant do it politely then he should let someone else do it

Another dumb post.

Go read ellimist's last 3 posts in this topic. If you have the patience to try to teach someone like that who is clearly incapable of reading or thinking outside of his own distorted world, then be my guest. There's plenty of intelligent new users out there. Don't criticize me for having run out of patience a long time ago for people like ellimist.

I used to be ignorant once. Then I read and looked up information and learned about things instead of trying to prove to an entire community that my own twisted views of a game were correct.

 

[NixxxoN]

Another dumb post.

Go read ellimist's last 3 posts in this topic. If you have the patience to try to teach someone like that who is clearly incapable of reading or thinking outside of his own distorted world, then be my guest. There's plenty of intelligent new users out there. Don't criticize me for having run out of patience a long time ago for people like ellimist.

I used to be ignorant once. Then I read and looked up information and learned about things instead of trying to prove to an entire community that my own twisted views of a game were correct.

He seems to be the typical player who always played with a few n00b friends. I think a lot of people used to be like that once.
This community is very small and flaming people like this isnt going to help. Why dont we just welcome new players and tell stuff to them politely?
I think the best answer we could give to him is "play against good players and you will see that you're wrong"

 

[hamburglar]

i joined smashboards in Dec 07 and read most threads avidly until 09, when i decided to begin posting. i did this purely because i knew i was too ignorant about the game to probably have a question that hasn't been answered already. if i had a question, i would check the index/ ask a ?/ or AT thread and 99% of the time it was easily answered without involving anyone else.

frankly, i have no sympathy for posters like ellimist when they are ridiculed for their posts. it just blows that i have to wade through pages of gardbage posts because people can't read.

He seems to be the typical player who always played with a few n00b friends. I think a lot of people used to be like that once.
This community is very small and flaming people like this isnt going to help. Why dont we just welcome new players and tell stuff to them politely?
I think the best answer we could give to him is "play against good players and you will see that you're wrong"

sometimes the best way to get a point across is the most blunt/harshest. it is sad but true that a lot of people won't take you seriously unless you shove your point in their face. he may think fireblaster is an *******, but i would bet that fireblaster's comment was more effective than just saying 'play against good players and you will see that you are wrong'

 

[NixxxoN]

You guys are too serious about it, its like omg ssb64 is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Must not be ignorant or be wrong about anything, or you go to the jail! .....

If you want to have this "post right stuff or dont post" policy, we may aswell close the whole forum, because only with an information website we'll have enough.

 

[hamburglar]

You guys are too serious about it, its like omg ssb64 is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Must not be ignorant or be wrong about anything, or you go to the jail! .....

If you want to have this "post right stuff or dont post" policy, we may aswell close the whole forum, because only with an information website we'll have enough.

for the record, his posts didn't bother me in any way, and i am all for informing people who are less knowledgeable about the game, I just also support the right to respond harshly, especially when it is effective in getting the point across. This is the internet, everyone is rude, and frankly, anyone who takes offense from posts like fireblaster's is just being overly sensitive.

 

[DMoogle]

for the record, his posts didn't bother me in any way, and i am all for informing people who are less knowledgeable about the game, I just also support the right to respond harshly, especially when it is effective in getting the point across.

I agree with this.

This is the internet, everyone is rude, and frankly, anyone who takes offense from posts like fireblaster's is just being overly sensitive.

But not this. Harsh is one thing, rude is another. I guess it's all subjective though.

You guys are too serious about it, its like omg ssb64 is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Must not be ignorant or be wrong about anything, or you go to the jail! .....

If you want to have this "post right stuff or dont post" policy, we may aswell close the whole forum, because only with an information website we'll have enough.

The problem was, Ellimist stated his opinion (which is what the tier list is, a collection of opinions) like it was a fact. He wasn't asking why it wasn't his way, he was (indirectly) saying that what other people thought was wrong. Take this post for example:

Seriously, in the right hands Samus is the most dangerous character in the game. Yea, this may only be my second post on the boards, but I've been playing Super Smash Bros. on the 64 for well over a decade and all I'm saying is that in my experience Samus is the best character there is.

Then Fireblaster responded somewhat harshly, but by no means was he flaming.

 

[hamburglar]

But not this. Harsh is one thing, rude is another. I guess it's all subjective though.

i guess i meant that the internet harbors the potential for a lot of rude and insensitive dialogue that should not even be acknowledged, so, in the scheme of things, a post like fireblaster's is relatively inoffensive, especially since it had a point.

 

[ballin4life]

I always laugh when people say "I've been playing the game since it came out" as an argument.

 

[DMoogle]

i guess i meant that the internet harbors the potential for a lot of rude and insensitive dialogue that should not even be acknowledged, so, in the scheme of things, a post like fireblaster's is relatively inoffensive, especially since it had a point.

Yeah, that's probably true too.

 

[kabal]

Samus belongs on the bottom of the tier list for sure, though for most matchups she's only at a very small disadvantage.

 

[NixxxoN]

i guess i meant that the internet harbors the potential for a lot of rude and insensitive dialogue that should not even be acknowledged, so, in the scheme of things, a post like fireblaster's is relatively inoffensive, especially since it had a point.

Uh, its not like that everywhere (not nearly) i guarantee you. I've been to lots forums (big ones) where people talks peacefully without any disrespect whatsoever. If you like to see the internet being a place where everyone talks harsly and offensively (and so you like fireblaster's post), thats another thing.

 

[hamburglar]

^ i didn't say everyone on the internet is rude, obviously i know that civil forums, blogs and message boards exist. But you have to admit social ques and mutual social respect are a lot less prevalent on the internet than they are in person. That is just an effect of anonymity. In turn, i don't believe people posting on forums should take people's harsh comments to heart.

I approved of fireblaster's post because it was successful in expressing a point he was obviously correct about. politeness doesn't even come into play.

 

[Fireblaster]

Uh, its not like that everywhere (not nearly) i guarantee you. I've been to lots forums (big ones) where people talks peacefully without any disrespect whatsoever. If you like to see the internet being a place where everyone talks harsly and offensively (and so you like fireblaster's post), thats another thing.

Oh please, stop being stuck up and pretending to be on the moral high ground while applying double standards. If someone in real life was really trying to express their wrong "opnion" about the game, I would try to correct them and show them the light in the most peaceful way possible. However, since this newb comes in with stupid claims that our collection of data and experience is somehow wrong because his experience from his extremely small sample size of friends says otherwise, he knows he is protected because of internet anonymity as well. You wouldn't have respect for somebody that goes to a gun owners' club meeting and then tries to tell them that they're evil for supporting such violent tools. Yet for some reason you defend ignorant newbs that try to claim an entire community is wrong without any real evidence or support?

tl;dr - Stop using double standards. Stop defending ignorant newbs. No mercy for people that are incapable of reading or using logic.

 

[kys]

Ellimist reminds me of a previous gem, cavemanerick, the same dude who claimed a non z-cancelling technique to be superior than z-cancelling. Also, the rom dump we all use is hax because fox's dtilt kills samus @ 90%. Actually cavemanerick used Samus and they talk the same, so alternate profile? I think this has merit.

@ Nixxon: When people are wrong, correcting them politely is a given. When that wrongness (for lack of a better word) is combined with an ignorant arrogance, responding the way Fireblaster did is usually the only way to get across. Ellimist is so staunch in his opinion you have to rock him to make him change. Being polite will only lead to, "Well we'll have to agree to disagree," when clearly he's an ***hat that needs to be smacked.

 

[Battlecow]

I really wish we'd heeded the advice of cheeseball's first post on the topic. Actually, I've been very entertained by the discussion, and fall somewhere between A$ and Fireblaster; Ellimist needs to stop. I respect the man's username, though. That takes serious cajones, in 2010.

 

[DMoogle]

Ellimist reminds me of a previous gem, cavemanerick, the same dude who claimed a non z-cancelling technique to be superior than z-cancelling. Also, the rom dump we all use is hax because fox's dtilt kills samus @ 90%. Actually cavemanerick used Samus and they talk the same, so alternate profile? I think this has merit.

Cavemanerick was on a totally different level. That guy was a total moron, not just a little ignorant and pompous.