The New Tier List

[Dr_Strangelove]

I still think pikachu should be on a seperate tier above fox.

Easily the best off stage, and at edgeguarding in general. (forwardsmash lulz)
Easily the best recover, and pretty much un-gimpable.
Probably the best in terms of approach options.
Arguably the best throws and a great grab.
That bloomin uair.

There are no drawbacks for playing pikachu, there is no bad matchup for pikachu, there is no bad stage for pikachu.

 

[rpotts]

@ Dr Strangelove-

I pretty much agree but doesn't fox do all those things too (minus recovery)?

He's excellent off stage, bair is a great off-stage edgeguard, shine is broken at or around the edge. He can still dsmash or fsmash at the ledge and guard pretty well (although not quite as broken as pika fsmash) He also has amazing approach options, his aerials have great priority, range and come out soo quickly, and his tilts and jab are incredible for comboing.

Fox has no bad matchups (rite?) and has tons of good/great matchups, like pikachu.

I don't think that pika is THAT much better than fox, even though he does have advantages. I could go either way on pika getting his own tier.

EDIT: Hmm, I didn't realize that pika has a good matchup over fox, i just figured they were even.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

The Pikachu vs Fox matchup ended up being a toss-up between even and Fox advantage when we discussed it. We decided to call it a Fox advantage, but it isn't by much. Probably 55-45 or 60-40 from our discussion. So yeah, it's a Pika advantage, but not by much.

I can see why people would want to have Pika in his own tier, but as for the "best off stage, best edgeguarder", that has already been discussed in each matchup. Bringing that up again is essentially double counting Pikachu's strong points. Basing your opinion on the matchup chart (he has no bad matchups) is more reasonable, but that can go either way, because Fox also has amazing matchups.

 

[DMoogle]

How about this: Pika's in his own tier on Dreamland, but in the same one was Fox on Hyrule.

 

[Deleted member]

The metagame of Pikachu vs Fox in Dreamland

f-throw off stage --> run-off n-air

 

[NixxxoN]

pretty much un-gimpable.

very hard but possible to gimp him

Probably the best in terms of approach options.

disagree

There are no drawbacks for playing pikachu, there is no bad matchup for pikachu, there is no bad stage for pikachu.

There are some even steven matchups, and yet again, the player is more important than the character

 

[DMoogle]

yet again, the player is more important than the character

The player is always more important than the character. This is a given, and is irrelevant to the discussion.

I agree that Pika doesn't have the best approach, but is top-tier. I think Fox has the best approach, then either Pika or Falcon.

 

[dch111]

Mario has a top quality approach as well. Falcon's is good only because of his speed.

 

[blaze3927]

and his ability to combo better than pika with just uair

 

[rpotts]

Mario has a top quality approach as well. Falcon's is good only because of his speed.

why does it matter what makes him good? saying someone is only good because of x is irrelevant to discussion. I would argue that fox, pika, and falcon have better approaches than mario. Marios approach is basically limited to aerials (although his fireballs are very helpful), and pika, fox and falcon all have tilts and smashes that out prioritize and out range marios aerials. Falcon doesn't simply rely on his speed, although it certainly helps

very hard but possible to gimp him

how exactly do you gimp pikachu, if gimp means a low percentage kill? Pikas up-b can recover from basically anywhere off stage, no attack would send a pika with low damage far enough away to not recover.

 

[DMoogle]

Mario has a top quality approach as well. Falcon's is good only because of his speed.

His range is pretty ridiculous, speed adds to that.

 

[ballin4life]

It depends on what you mean exactly by gimp but you can gimp pikachu by hitting him out of his upb (usually with a spike)

 

[Untrust Us]

how exactly do you gimp pikachu, if gimp means a low percentage kill? Pikas up-b can recover from basically anywhere off stage, no attack would send a pika with low damage far enough away to not recover.

Assuming your idea of low percentage is around 20%-30%, it is quite feasible. While it may not be a true gimp you can continue edguarding Pikachu by predicting your opponent's up-b directions.

Send Pikachu off stage -> Pikachu will jump trying to get back on stage -> hit -> Pikachu will use up-b because of their second jump loss -> edgeguard (neutral A, fox shine etc.) -> hang on ledge(if pikachu seems to be able to return past the ledge), rinse and repeat.

With DK there's an easy way to gimp Pikachu in Hyrule. You should get Pikachu in around the 40-45% range, you grab pikachu and throw him towards the green tent and follow it up with a d-air and there should be enough hitstun/knockback to allow pikachu reach the ledge ONLY and not get past that but Pikachu won't be able to grab the ledge because you're grabbing onto it.

 

[blaze3927]

the only ways i can think of gimping pikachu is predicting his up b with ness and spike/edgehog or if your timing is good enough pk thunder smash up the wall on hyrule.

only other way i can think off is not really a gimp, but juts **** him with jigglypuff by spamming the easy death combo

 

[asianaussie]

GJ theorycrafting guys

In reality, you aren't going to be gimping Pika at 20-30% every time, whereas it is possible to do this every time against any other character not called Yoshi.

 

[ciaza]

Edit Nevermind

 

[Untrust Us]

EDIT: nevermind

 

[dch111]

why does it matter what makes him good? saying someone is only good because of x is irrelevant to discussion. I would argue that fox, pika, and falcon have better approaches than mario. Marios approach is basically limited to aerials (although his fireballs are very helpful), and pika, fox and falcon all have tilts and smashes that out prioritize and out range marios aerials. Falcon doesn't simply rely on his speed, although it certainly helps.

I don't know, I find it much easier to approach an opponent with Mario than with Falcon. His aerials might not have much priority, but usually the opponent is so harassed by fireballs that they can't even launch a proper smash or tilt before Mario's dair uair "floor sweeper" is all up in their face, literally.

 

[Untrust Us]

I don't know, I find it much easier to approach an opponent with Mario than with Falcon. His aerials might not have much priority, but usually the opponent is so harassed by fireballs that they can't even launch a proper smash or tilt before Mario's dair uair "floor sweeper" is all up in their face, literally.

By the time you've fired enough fireballs to create some sort of barrier for you to approach, falcon would have usmashed/grabbed you already.

 

[SilentSlayers]

Captain Falcon's approach > Mario's fireballs.

 

[Kefit]

How about this: Pika's in his own tier on Dreamland, but in the same one was Fox on Hyrule.

But Falcon would be up with Pika on Dreamland.

 

[Galanoth7395]

A few weeks ago I bought Smash 64 on the Virtual Console. I know the community is very experienced, but I must ask a few questions: first, why the heck is link above samus? Samus is better than link in pretty much every area I can think of, and I just want to know why he is considered the worst in competitivity. Second, I want to know what exactly makes Pikachu so beastly. Lastly, I want to know why Jiggs is so low, since he can combo, WoD, rest, and all that other good stuff like in Melee.

 

[HoN3Y64]

A few weeks ago I bought Smash 64 on the Virtual Console. I know the community is very experienced, but I must ask a few questions: first, why the heck is link above samus? Samus is better than link in pretty much every area I can think of, and I just want to know why he is considered the worst in competitivity. Second, I want to know what exactly makes Pikachu so beastly. Lastly, I want to know why Jiggs is so low, since he can combo, WoD, rest, and all that other good stuff like in Melee.

Wow, you're dumb.

First of all, his name is Metroid not Samus.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

A few weeks ago I bought Smash 64 on the Virtual Console. I know the community is very experienced, but I must ask a few questions: first, why the heck is link above samus? Samus is better than link in pretty much every area I can think of, and I just want to know why he is considered the worst in competitivity. Second, I want to know what exactly makes Pikachu so beastly. Lastly, I want to know why Jiggs is so low, since he can combo, WoD, rest, and all that other good stuff like in Melee.

for Jigglypuff, Jigglypuff is a glass cannon in smash 64, having incredibly bad matchups vs DK and Luigi but a really good one vs Falcon. Everyone can combo in smash 64 very easy....except for samus.

Samus is considered the worst since she cannot combo at all. She also is the only character with multiple 30-70 matchups (pika, Falcon, Kirby, Fox)

Pikachu is considered the best due to having outstanding priority, a very good aerial approach, and by FAR the best recover in smash 64. Pikachu can also up b to get out of combos.

Also, to horn3y, i hope your trolling.

 

[asianaussie]

The tier list is completely based off matchups. Thus, no matter how awesome you are at the game, the tier list won't take that into account and instead employs a crack team of master theorycrafters.

The tier list is for high level play, which you probably can't claim to know well because you're asking why Pika is so great. Sorry, it's true. Pika has insane edgeguarding abilities, fluent combos, a good juggle move, a powerful off-the-top finisher, fantastic grabs and far and away the best recovery in-game.

Samus cannot combo extensively outside of the **** tent. If you think Samus is better than Link, then you haven't seen a good Link play. Against Link, projectile spam is an obstacle at best, absolutely frustrating at worst. He has a decent approach, alright priority and hitboxes and decent finishers/edgeguarding. His flaws are his recovery (knock him a few centimetres off the edge and he's basically dead), his medium weight (easy juggle material for certain high tier characters) and an overall slow attack speed (his attacks are slow to come out in comparison to Pika, Fox, etc).

Samus sucks. She is slow, has an awful approach and mediocre priority. Her recovery is easily intercepted. The worst part, however, is her lack of combo ability. She has very few guaranteed follow-ups, and generally has to rely on techchases and prediction to get momentum going. She does have her pros (hard to combo, good gtfo in up-B, charge beam is very threatening, okay edgeguards), but they don't outweigh her cons.

I suck with Jiggs, so someone else explain that please.

Edit: KoRo beat me to it.

 

[HoN3Y64]

Also, to horn3y, i hope your trolling.

Duh, also it's Hon3y not Horn3y LOL.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Wow, you're dumb.

First of all, his name is Metroid not Samus.

First, it's called new to the game and its community, not dumb.
Second, HER name is Samus, not Metroid. You obviously know nothing about the Metroid series, so keep your mouth shut.
Third, you said "First of all..." but then nothing else, defeating the purpose of the phrase.
Don't post on a forum if you're going to make such idiotic posts.
Anyways, thanks for actually answering my questions, KoRo.

 

[asianaussie]

First, it's called new to the game and its community, not dumb.
Second, HER name is Samus, not Metroid. You obviously know nothing about the Metroid series, so keep your mouth shut.
Third, you said "First of all..." but then nothing else, defeating the purpose of the phrase.
Don't post on a forum if you're going to make such idiotic posts.
Anyways, thanks for actually answering my questions, KoRo. But what about Pika? Other than speed, what makes him so good?

Funnily enough KoRo didn't mention speed. I wrote up some of his pros too.

Also you got trolled by the most obvious troll in the history of obviousness and trolls. You also called 'Metroid' a he. Your fault

 

[Galanoth7395]

Funnily enough KoRo didn't mention speed. I wrote up some of his pros too.

Also you got trolled by the most obvious troll in the history of obviousness and trolls. You also called 'Metroid' a he. Your fault

I read KoRo's post before yours which is why I didn't mention you. Thanks.
Dangit! Can't believe I didn't see it was trolling! I really to think my posts through >.<'
By the way, I used to get on Smashboards every day, so I know exactly what a tier list is. I just wasn't aware that SSB got a competitive community.

EDIT: I somehow skipped what he said about Pikachu, which is why I asked about him again.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

hey, galanoth, wat do u suppose contributed to u not being aware that ssb64 had a competive community? is it the lack of our own section on the boards page? or is it that ur pretty young and didnt grow up with ssb64?

edit: im just trying to get feedback so we can attract more players to the ssb64 section

 

[Galanoth7395]

hey, galanoth, wat do u suppose contributed to u not being aware that ssb64 had a competive community? is it the lack of our own section on the boards page? or is it that ur pretty young and didnt grow up with ssb64?

edit: im just trying to get feedback so we can attract more players to the ssb64 section

Well, I guess you could say I wasn't aware that the SSB64 competitive community was as active as it is. I knew it had an online competitive community via emulator, though. As for growing up with it, I played it twice in my life before I bought it on VC, and even so that was a LOOOOOONG time ago. When I did, though, I very much enjoyed it. I didn't have a Nintendo 64; I grew up on PS1 and Gamecube (it was only last year I got Melee). I am completely new to the SSB64 boards.

 

[greenblob]

Why is Samus crap? Go to YouTube and search the words ssb, combo, and [character name]. Go down the tier list, starting with Pikachu and ending with Samus. The results should speak for themselves.

 

[asianaussie]

Actually, Prince (and others) made a number of respectable Samus 'combos'. They just aren't practical.

 

[MattNF]

Second, HER name is Samus, not Metroid. You obviously know nothing about the Metroid series, so keep your mouth shut.
Third, you said "First of all..." but then nothing else, defeating the purpose of the phrase.
Don't post on a forum if you're going to make such idiotic posts.

Trolled.

10

 

[StealthyGunnar]

As for Luigi being in bottom, I don't know about that... I always though luigi had better combo potential, better recovery, and all-in all just a better character. To see Mario at the top is surprising. I always sucked with him. :l

 

[ballin4life]

A few weeks ago I bought Smash 64 on the Virtual Console. I know the community is very experienced, but I must ask a few questions: first, why the heck is link above samus? Samus is better than link in pretty much every area I can think of, and I just want to know why he is considered the worst in competitivity. Second, I want to know what exactly makes Pikachu so beastly. Lastly, I want to know why Jiggs is so low, since he can combo, WoD, rest, and all that other good stuff like in Melee.

To elaborate on jiggs:

Jiggs has very little range and priority so it's hard to approach with her. Also I think the people here overrate jiggs' combo ability.

 

[HoN3Y64]

I always sucked with him. :l

eh.... there you go?

 

[Galanoth7395]

All right, thanks, I'm beginning to see the big picture. SSB64 competitive play is basically getting a good approach and decent combos while playing a careful defensive game for most part. In Brawl the campiest win, in Melee the fastest win, and in 64 the most combo able win. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[DMoogle]

All right, thanks, I'm beginning to see the big picture. SSB64 competitive play is basically getting a good approach and decent combos while playing a careful defensive game for most part. In Brawl the campiest win, in Melee the fastest win, and in 64 the most combo able win. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

It's wayyyyyyyyy more complex than that, in all three games.

This tier list also means almost nothing for people who aren't at the level that the list is defined for.

 

[ballin4life]

In 64 approach probably matters most (and recovery to the characters that have decent recoveries)

Most characters can combo well enough that making a mistake leads to huge punishment.

Also if you're new you should check out youtube videos of the best players like isai and superboom. And check the stickies