Mmac
Smash Lord
Welcome to our new Matchup Thread! I felt that the current one was too cluttered and disorganized, so I decided to start from scratch, with the hard part cut out already.
How Sweet is that!
Characters that are Finalized or near Finalized -
- Snake, Dedede, ROB
- Marth, Lucario, Wario, Diddy, Kirby, Pit, Wolf
- Toon Link, Olimar, ZSS, Ike, Sheik
- Lucas, Mario, Pokemon Trainer (Excluding Charizard), Samus, Sonic, Link
Characters that the Said Character Matchup Thread hasn't Discussed us, but is probably correct -
- Pikachu
- Luigi, Peach
- Ness, Ganondorf
Characters that are under Heavy Discussion, and will probably Change -
- Game & Watch, Falco
- DK
- Zelda
Characters that should probably be discussed again... -
-MetaKnight
-Ice Climbers
-Fox, Bowser
-Charizard, Jigglypuff, C.Falcon
Updates
Oct. 26 - Made the Thread
Oct. 29 - Started Dedede
Oct. 31 - Made the "Known Matchup" Section
Nov. 19 - Remember that I had this Update Section.... Finished Dedede, and Finished Lucario and Snake. Started on Olimar
Nov. 24 - Finished Olimar, and Added Wario to the Well Known's. Started on ROB
Dec. 3 - Pushed back ROB to a later date, Put Lucas and Sonic in the Known Section. Started on Toon Link and Old Link again.
When discussing characters. If you don't know how to start your thesis, you can just use this guidelines which I totally didn't steal from the Kirby Matchup Thread.
Character: (Duh)
Difficulty rating: (Your rating of the match)
Overview: (What general strategies does this character employ against Yoshi? Does he camp? Go all out offensive?)
Pros+Cons: (What does this character have going for him? Weight? Speed? How about things we can take advantage of?)
Watch out for: (This character's favourite moves and when he'll use them)
How to win: (What
What NOT to do: (If you want to lose, go right ahead)
Stages: (Which to counterpick? Which to avoid?)
Synopsis: (TL;DR version)
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Week One - King Dedede
Week Two - LucarioAlright, I actually was deciding not to do another description because I've done this so many times, but then I read some comments about the matchup and it charged me up so yeah, get ready beyotches!
First off, the CG DDD performs on Yoshi has strange timing and most DDD's have problems pulling it off. You cannot escape it if they have the timing proper, however because it is hard for them to do, always try to spot dodge, roll, or something everytime, just in case they screw up. Most of yall do have the right idea. Spam eggs. If you don't use eggs, the matchup moves quickly in DDD's favor.
Now let's discuss all options if both of you are on the ground. The best range you want to be at against DDD is far away. He can try to spam waddles, but as long as you stay out of that range, then you can punish him for it with eggs.
If you happen to approach DDD, there are only a few things you can do that won't be punished. Retreating bairs, or rising aerials, are really the only safe things to do. If you do bairs through the DDD, he can shield the entire thing and grab you on the other side, or possible grab you while trying to go through. It can happen. Usually you want to do interchange bair and ETS back and forth. It causes your strategy to be split between defense and offense and the DDD won't know how to approach it. If they try to approach, they will get caught by the retreating bair into other attacks. If they back up, you can egg spam. This is the absolute best strategy I have found, in fact it's pretty good against most characters (I use it quite a bit).
Now, no matter what, you do not want to be above him at high percentage. Utilt has deceptive range and will connect. If yall are both in the air, connect uairs together with eggs and maybe a dair or two. This area is really where a certain yoshi's style comes out so mix it up.Jab out of the CG instead? That way he can't get around you to pivot grab.
The absolute worst position and what I believe makes this match 55:45 DDD is when you are off the stage and DDD is standing right at the edge. If you are ever in this position, probably the safest thing is to recover high and try to get back on without getting punished. However, if your life has become so incredibly unlucky that you must grab that ledge...personally I believe besides playing against MK in this kind of setup, this is the absolute hardest setup yoshi can be in. Now let's go through your options.
1) Get up attack can be shieldgrabbed.
2) Ledge jump can be grabbed or attacked instantly. Might work once or twice but very dangerous to do since you are so vulnerable doing that.
3) The last option available would be to do drop -> DJ - something. This part all depends on how smart the DDD you're playing is. This is super mind games lol.
3a) If you try bair, he can shieldgrab it and is rather dangerous.
3b) Dair is another option and can be quite good, but only if they don't see it coming. Also can be shield grabbed while you are coming up.
3c) DJAD is probably one of your safest options. In this instance, you have to choose where you will dodge to, either in front of him or behind him. Once again, all depends on how your opponent reacts. If he predicts the dodge through, you get grabbed and CG'ed to the other side. If he predicts in front, you get grabbed and thrown back out in the air.
3d) Egglay can be very useful as well.
3e) Depending how close to the edge they are, ECE can off some good damage, but they can dtilt or ftilt you out of it so watch out for that.
In all these instances with grabs, you have just lost your DJ. He can wait for the release and a quick edgegrab with invincibility will leave you falling to your doom.
In all actuality though, there is no safe option. If your opponent plays smart, you will punished from any of these things. Luckily, though, most DDD's won't have the reactions or timing to perform most of this. However, if you do play a smart DDD, do not put yourself in this position.
Well, it was kinda scattered and stuff but I hope this is what yall wanted. I might sound rather bleak in some situations, but it really is that hard if you are playing someone smart.
55:45 Have fun!
"Furbs said:So the point here is to kill lucario asap!!
unfortunately that's quite a bit of a difficult task because of his weight and yoshi's lackluster variety of kill moves
-Fsmash kills at around 115-125%, and at that point lucario can out range fsmash with some of his moves. One thing I've found successful is thowing an egg OVER Lucario so that he instinctively counters (MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HIT AND IT GOES HIS DIRECTION) and punishing his counter with an Fsmash.
-Upsmash kills at around 130%, although if you're underneath lucario most of the time they'll spam dair which out prioritizes the upsmash
-Uair is a blessing in the matchup killing at around 120%, "but dear Furbs" you may ask "you silly person you're coming from the same direction as when you upsmash!!!". That is true, but the two things that make this different is that Uair BARELY out-ranges lucarios dair, also what I usually do (sense the spacing is tough) is double jumping when lucario uses dair, tanking the hit and THEN uairing!!!
Now here's some things you should keep in mind on this matchup:
- If you spam eggs lucario can do two things. He can either counter (he moves forward quite a bit when he does this so he can use it to approach), or He'll start charging an aura sphere and power shield the eggs. How to solve: If lucario uses counter to approach you can actually use this as an advantage by power shielding when he reaches you and punishing with a jab combo, if lucario starts charging an aura sphere that means you're gonna have to start approaching .
- When approaching bairs are very effective, although Ftilt and Fair beat it our. it's best to use it to pressure and then use tilts when you land.
- Lucario's moves stay out for quite a while so it takes a while to get the timing right for spot dodging.
- Also pivot grab is your BEST FRIEND!!!!11!1! it outranges most of lucarios moves and can help setup for a kill.Lucario eh? Allow me
Lucario is going to want to zone this match, as stated before. He can approach, which is a good option, but leaves him open to ETSs easily. He can camp a little bit, but yoshi out camps, so camp for a second, then get going again. The matchup is basically a zoning matchup. Lucario is a superior zoner, but he is slow in the air, making him easy bait for eggs. However, lucario can SH fair to neutral b, so if you have a charged aura sphere, we can get punished for an egg if lucario predicts it. Lucario wants to zone with aerials and fsmash mainly. lucario can shield yoshis tilts and punish OOS with an utilt, cuz its so godly and fast, so i prefer to stick to jabs here. Yoshi is gonna be ETSing alot in this matchup to get away from lucarios fsmash, and to add pressure. Yoshi isnt going to be grabbin much here.
On egg roll: Its a terrible move, nobody should get hit by it. JUST GRAB THEM OUT OF IT!!!!! So difficult, it hurts XDWeek Three - LinkIt seems to be the general opinion that Luc is easily gimped by everyone in the cast due to no damage ES. To save ourselves from going into a 10page debate as to why Yoshi can't "gimp Lucario pretty well", I'll just leave these notes and be done with the subject. Whether Yoshi boards believe me or not I really don't care:
-Yoshi cannot gimp Lucario easily. No one on the roster that isn't named Metaknight, MK, or ROB can gimp Lucario in realistic terms.
-If you're gimping Lucarios, they're showing you exactly what "jumping into the ****" looks like. Luc has a plethora of options for returning to the stage. Mostly passive, but it's enough to escape a lot of character's onslaughts. A good example is that, so long as Lucario has saved his midair, he can easily survive a DDD WoP. You have to find a surefire way to take out that Luc's midair while getting around his high priority aerials. A lucario that can't successfully execute every option given to him are the ones that are easily gimped. These claims are about as true as the ones talking about how easy it is to go out there and footstool a Yoshi's midair.
-To gimp a Lucario, it's 10% skill on the player's part, and 90% dumb decision by the Lucario. Play a Lucario that knows how to pull out all the stops to make his recovery a safe one.
-Luc's fair outranges and outprioritizes all of Yoshi's aerials but the fair (and if you're coming at us with an fair that's one of the easiest things in the world to avoid) and aurasphere can wreak havoc on Yoshi's generally low priority aerials (this is in contrast to the likes of Marth, or DDD's bair. Things that are just walled up with priority and range) Luc also has his dair, which cuts his momentum. We can use it to stall if an opponent is attempting to come out to pressure us. A character like Yoshi, it's relatively easy to avoid him with this method as Yoshi's limited offstage game due to the recovery being...limited.
-Combined with Luc's tools to getting back to the stage, as well as the dair stalling, he also has an impressively good midair jump and is one of the floatiest characters in the game; making it no difficult task to make it back to the stage with his midair alone.
-Should Yoshi somehow knock Lucario out of his midair (an egg is the only realistic option here) and the Lucario is forced to ES, it's possible to go for an fair spike or running (offstage) uair. At this height, a fresh uair will kill Lucario at 140-150? I can't remember. This has happened to me once before, and only once, but it is possible. If you were to followup with a nair or something the Lucario can easily DI the hit and be put into an even better position to recover. Luc's aerial movement is good, and he is very floaty. Anything that can't spike or semispike him is only going to help him recover.
I'd put the game in Luc's advantage. Numbers..I guess 6:4 Lucario. Whether you agree with me or not is up to you, but there is definitely an advantage to Lucario here.
On top of bair and fsmash, it's key to watch out for uair and aurasphere. Uair especially, it kills at surprisingly low (well lower than originally anticipated. 100% Lucario will take out someone like Yoshi at 120-130% from fulljumped height) percents when left fresh.On Lucarios kill moves/yoshis killing ability:
He really only kills me with fsmash and occasionally bair. Dair is the most obvious move in the game, because its so obvious when lucario is going to do it, however, it is a good move and it kills, but in general its a very easy move to see coming because it is their best option when the opponent is below you. Its hard to explain... hmmm, but like, lucario doesnt have any good options in that area so he has to use down air. Airdodging down is not a good option for him, and nair is beat by our uair and usmash, so just dont get hit by dairs.
His fsmash is godly and unpunishable, but just try to stay away from it. You either want to be right next to lucario or out of range of his fsmash. It hits, and its an amazing move, especially when yoshi is on the edge, but its his main kill move. Bair isnt really that good but it can kill. It has startup, but a deceptively large hitbox.
Yoshi has a hard time getting kills, especially since uair wont work unless done perfectly, but the key is to not rush it. If you dont have an opening, dont go for it, because at those percents, going for kills you probably wont get means pain. Offstage kills can make or break the game, if you can get off a solid edgeguard on the first stock, its possible that the game is over, because now lucario is at low percentage again without his overly powerful kill moves. Dtilt sets up for easy edgeguards, and its generally safe. You can occasionally go for an fsmash if you think lucario is going in for a SH fair -> nair. The main thing is to not go for kills that you arent sure you are going to get, because if you get hasty, which i know i do, you are going to be punished.
Shoop Da Whoop
Keep in mind that dair does completely stall Lucario for a small duration, which leaves him relatively safe when the Luc has taken into account the opponents position. Wildly dairing whenever someone gets close to you is being predictable and is player error more than character error.
I think the hardest thing for Yoshi here is how difficult it will be for him to grab kills here. You mentioned that it's a general GG for the Lucario if Yoshi can get a low percent kill on Lucario, but Lucario getting a kill on Yoshi at near any percent is going to wreak havoc on Yoshi's next stock. We can still camp you, except our auraspheres are doing 7-8% instead of 4-5%, and comboing Yoshi is easy due to size, even at those percents. an Fair->dair alone is an easy 30%, and sets up for an additional 10-20% depending on the Yoshi's reactions and how well the Lucario is capable of executing the next attack (example being to aurasphere a read midair). This holds true for a lot of characters, but Yoshi definitely has a harder time setting up killers here than others on the roster. Yoshi's approach options do suffer against a Lucario this high in the percents due to aurasphere's increasing priority and ability to demolish most of his approach options.
Of course if Yoshi gets the kill on first stock then we're stretchin for a kill on you guys, and that might not happen until 180%.
Just know that Luc is never down and out, especially against a character with rather low kill potential.
You guys are doin Link again?
We'll Ive done some testing and here is what I have found.
chaingrab on Link is almost not a factor. Link almost always has a bomb. If you even try to go for the CG, they will recognize and just bomb spam for a bit.
Zair isn't as big of a problem for Yoshi as other characters. Yoshi's should always be moving around in this matchup and take advantage of their air speed and such.
Yoshi's projectile game doesn't beat Links but it does stop Link from spamming. Link will go moble and forced into playing his spacing game again.
A Yoshi Hyphen smash Destroys Links spacing. He gets in there pretty quickly. Only thing Link has on Yoshi is mauling his recovery. It is very easy to Dair Yoshi's recovery and send him flying. -Eh, not really. It depends on how Link uses the Dair, but even still, It's not that hard for Yoshi's to avoid Link's Edgeguarding options if he is smart with his recovery options. -Mmac
Yea we all thought it looked bad on paper for Yoshi but nobody considered how much of an asset air speed was in this matchup. It completely revamps the entire matchup. Yoshi gets in with that airspeed and follows up with quick tilts and stuff. Link has very few options as he doesn't have the moveset to counter this. Link is weak from behind so bairing past him is a great idea. I'll top it off with the fact that Link has laggy moves which yoshi can take a major advantage of once he gets past the fact that they are disjointed. But seriously, airspeed is such a major asset in this matchup. More so than you could ever think.
Its 50:50 against Link.
Week Four - Snake
Finished... I guess... Summary Coming Soon
Week Five - Olimar
There was too much discussion here to put in such small space. Alot of good stuff between Post 341 and Post 368. Too Lazy to write an summery at the moment...
Week Six - ROB
Also needs a Summary!!
Week Seven - Toon Link
Week Eight -Mr. Game & WatchI don't see why Yoshi doesn't have the advantage over Toon Link. Let's look at this from all perspectives.
Starting out the match, Toon Link will almost ALWAYS go for a SH to grab a bomb. Almost all TL's I've played almost always start with this. Drop eggs on their ***. It blows the bomb on them, so you get double damage. Toon Link will projectile fire back, but your Bair eats his arrows. It will also cancel the boomerang. Your projecile is harder for them to cancel because of the way it comes in, as it is for everyone. It arcs. So therefore they'd have to time the cancel if your barraging and egg pressuring them. If you alternate long thrown eggs with medium and approach while doing so, you've got him kind pinned. I'd stop about 4 Yoshi lengths away though, and go for a dash attack. It's so under used, but It's great! Because if you buffer it right you can peg them with another as they're getting up. And force them off the edge. You can throw little soft eggs off the edge a little bit back that drop a lot. These really mess with recovery and if they dodge that, after they initiate their B-Up, Dair to Nair them. This is a really good offstage combo that can, and will, kill.
Let's talk about aerials here, Toon Links will abuse Bair like an Asian hooker. No lies they will do it, as much as we use our bair. So, what to do when they start landing them on you? It does have a bit longer start up time than nair. Hmm, how bout nair? Duh! It will knock them back and give you control of the match again. So we got bair covered, nair is a good SH'er and Yoshi does good at avoiding those, so I'll not worry much about it. Fair is not that great since is sword is so short and lack good range. So you retreat a fair back, your disjoint would beat their fair. I'm fairly sure this works. Fair aslo is easily countered by a soft back egg momentum toss. Your momentum takes you back and the soft egg ***** them. I never see any Yoshi think to do this. I mean in the heat of battle I don't either. But it has some great capabilities. I've done something like it before. They're Uair is a pain, especially on stages like BF. It can under platform **** you and stays out for a long time. But luckily for us, it does stay out long, and can give you time to work around into a better position, if they whiff they're uair. Dair is also an annoyance, but it can be equally annoying for them. Since if they miss they're screwed, hardcore. You can easily punish them on this move, but if they do connect, they can double hit on you, and then follow up with Uair. This little string is a real shot to the nads. And can be really annoying at high percents. Oh! Let's move onto the Yosho recovery factor, which every TL always perfectly places Dairs on your DJ. WRONG. It doesn't happen like that, and is really hard to do so. You don't go out after Yoshi, or you will pay. Also, they always won't plummet to their death. They can pull out a bomb, jump out high. Z to drop the bomb and use Dair to recatch it. So if they do miss it explodes saving them before they die. But! If they do this, and they do miss. And you know they're not going to die, go down their and dair them. You get the kill, and they go bye-bye.
But let's focus on what TL can and will do to you now. His Fsmash has great range, and can trip you up. It also kills fairly easy. (Does anyone know if nair is fast enough to come out before the second hit?) So try to shield this, then punish with your tilts. Dsmash at around 20%, can launch you off the stage, and can put you in very bad situations. Usmash is fairly annoying to, and has a great hyphen use. So they will use this, so be prepared to dodge it, or shield punish it. If you see them coming you can also lay out a soft egg to hold them at bay, and follow it closely and then grab them. Then make use of your Dthrow, it works good in this match up. Dthrow to Bair works great. But don't try for Uair a lot, because they have time to recover enough for a dair on you. But if you angle your uair, it could be used to fake them. So if they dair. They will whiff and give you the edge. This match is all about thinking. Yoshi has the skill application advantage. When using them as they are needed it will throw the match in your favor.
TL's grabbing animation is quite mediocre, and comes out fast but stays out for a long time. So, make him miss you, then punish him! you have grabs over him, make him scared to try and grab you. This gets to their heads, fearing grabs because they know they have the chance of screwing up awfully.
Also, make use of your pivot grab and grab him out of his bair and other moves. It works great, and throws the match in your favor.
Burnt is going to be mad at meI say its40-60G&Ws favor from a bit of recent tournament G-dubs practice. Yoshis uair beats his dair after the first few frames if we space it right, run away from bairs most of the time and ETS, this will not only put pressure, but he will more than likely DI towards u most of the time to try and stop u from your ETS, which is what you want, because yoshi can SHIELD GRAB bair if he is DIing in. Isnt life sweet =) Be aggressive when he is not, make him second guess his game with eggs, dont be an idiot and get hit by his smashes(at least get killed with his predictable fair rather than smashes), you can dtilt but only if you dont suspect a dtilt of his own, if he does that just ETS. G&W can juggle u with nairs and uairs(god i hate that move), dont down b please, just do your best to combine egg momentum shifts and be tricky and get down while taking minimum damage. He cant dsmash from down throw but he can do numerous things depending on your reaction, so if hes smart, you will likely get hit with a follow up or regrabbed a few times a match. Mix up ur techs.
The thing about G&W is he has really lackluster options when you are near him, compared to yoshi who has a magnificent jab and ftilt. Make him play your game, take as little damage as you can from his bairs and try to punish if possible, ALWAYS GO FOR THE UAIR! This is really what i would suggest, he cant dair to safety, so he has to just fall, and at that point, its fine cuz hes falling and you can do whatever you do to any other character(people do different things). Dash attack is a no no here(not like i use it anyways), and G&W still wins because of his survivability(bucket cancel can pretty much make him last long than snake on FD against horizontal kills), and because hes a really good character with amazing hitboxes. Thats it.
I WROTE A GINORMOUS PARAGRAPH ON WHY ITS40-60!
Refute it! Also, people are being silly, you cant egg him while he bucket breaks, or hit him with an aerial. He nairs and buckets, it lets him survive for a while long, and if a G&W player has amazing DI(this is big, it lets them have much more time to bucket break), they are gonna last around as long as snake horizontally.
Vertical finishes are hard to come by, unless u keep ur uair fresh which is super dumb, cuz u cant get hits without it.
G&W ***** yoshi in the air, nair is amazing and beats yoshis everything, just try to be smart and not get juggled too badly, bair is good but can be punished as i state in my long summery WHICH PEOPLE SHOULD READ.
Dont edgeguard G&W ever.
Week Nine - Jigglypuff
Coming back to this one
Week Ten - Zelda