The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[bigman40]

Aside from PRiDE and Bwett1, I can't recall any remarkable Yoshi mains.
But yeah, lets try not to get off topic, :{.

See? This is proof that I'm not that good.

 

[Chaco]

See? This is proof that I'm not that good.

Your good, you just haven't gone to many tournaments yet.

 

[Deleted member]

See? This is proof that I'm not that good.

Yea, ur terrible, sorry to break it to ya.

=P

 

[Shiri]

Agreed.

 

[Mmac]

He left me out too

 

[Poltergust]

Me, too. Now I feel bad.

 

[Ryusuta]

He meant to mention me, but I don't think he wanted to make anyone else look bad. I'm certain that this is the only possible explanation.

(Was this tongue-in-cheek enough?)

 

[jehonaker]

I hate facing Mr. Game & Watch, with as disorienting as he can be.

General thoughts on the match-up:
Yoshi Bomb: Bad choice.
Throw around Yoshi Bomb, get hit with Oil Panic. The stars released are, indeed, energy projectiles, and I've pulled off Oil Panic against King Dedede with his impact stars. It's unlikely, but not something worth chancing.

His moves are telegraphed.
They do hurt, but his dangerous moves are easy to see coming. Turtle is his main approach, so that's easy to expect.
All three of his smashes hurt, but they have distinctive intro animations (a good thing). His tilts don't, though, and all three work well to build up Yoshi. He likes to tech chase into his nasty, nasty Vermin attack, though...it's not pretty.

Eggs = friend.
Mr. Game & Watch can't really defend against eggs that well, frankly. His defensive game is a lot better than it was in Melee, but still falls short at times. Launching eggs is a solid way to get a tail up.

Yoshi in air > Mr. Game & Watch in air.
Seriously, our upwards aerial eats through his downwards aerial, and our backwards aerial isn't too shabby. Not a whole lot that deals with the Turtle, though.

He dies very easily.
Tied for second-lightest in the game means that a good upwards aerial will hurt him badly. He should die at around 85%, give or take a bit. His recovery's good, but still very much spikable.

He does have a lot of nasty options, though, and his power and unusual lag patterns do lay waste to Yoshi.
It's not 30:70...I'd think that 40:60 or 35:65 would be perfect.

 

[Tony_]

Aside from PRiDE and Bwett1, I can't recall any remarkable Yoshi mains.
But yeah, lets try not to get off topic, :{.

wut about me? ;P

 

[Bwett]

I'm just going to say this, if the G&W wasn't Hylian or xYz, I don't care, .

I didn't really read anything else but this. Just as fyi, UTD Zac beat Hylian in G&W dittos in tournament at Centex2.

 

[Poltergust]

He dies very easily.
Tied for second-lightest in the game means that a good upwards aerial will hurt him badly. He should die at around 85%, give or take a bit. His recovery's good, but still very much spikable.

You're wrong about this. Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket Cancelling makes it so that he can survive 20%-30% more than he should if the player reacts quickly enough. Also, how can we spike him out of his recovery if it has invincibility frames? Edge-guarding with anything other than eggs is generally a bad idea due to his overwhelming aerials. Speaking of aerials, you were also wrong about Yoshi having better ones. N-air and b-air are pretty much unstoppable if they are used while Yoshi's in the air. His f-air is a great killer and his u-air can keep us afloat. Thankfully, his d-air isn't much of a threat.

 

[Neb]

I didn't really read anything else but this. Just as fyi, UTD Zac beat Hylian in G&W dittos in tournament at Centex2.

Yeah, but G&W mirror-matches only really consist of four usable moves.
I hardly consider that a show of superiority. I still think UTD Zac is a good G&W main,
just forgot to put him in my post, .

 

[Chaco]

He left me out too

FTR, I mentioned you. lol

 

[Deleted member]

Why not talk about the matchup instead of whos good and whos not =P

 

[Hylian]

I didn't really read anything else but this. Just as fyi, UTD Zac beat Hylian in G&W dittos in tournament at Centex2.

You forgot to mention I posted before that tournament(Which was a doubles tournament, not a singles tournament) that I was not going to be taking singles seriously because it was 2 stock. I also ended up placing the same as UTDzac somehow when I was just screwing around with kirby for most of the tournament. In doubles(the main event) I got 4th with Sethlon <_<.

Seriously though I hated the two stock format and said I wasn't going to be playing seriously before I entered the tournament in the thread.

 

[_Phloat_]

You forgot to mention I posted before that tournament(Which was a doubles tournament, not a singles tournament) that I was not going to be taking singles seriously because it was 2 stock. I also ended up placing the same as UTDzac somehow when I was just screwing around with kirby for most of the tournament. In doubles(the main event) I got 4th with Sethlon <_<.

Seriously though I hated the two stock format and said I wasn't going to be playing seriously before I entered the tournament in the thread.

NO JOH-*infracted*

 

[Shiri]

Serious business, ladies.

Does anybody have any actual Game and Watch discussion or can we move on to the next character?

 

[Big Red]

U-throw>GnW tries to Dair>Pivot Grab>Uthrow>GnW tries to Dair......>DR Fsmash>Utaunt?

 

[jehonaker]

Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket Cancelling makes it so that he can survive 20%-30% more than he should if the player reacts quickly enough.

If Mr. Game & Watch uses the Bucket Brake, that is usually enough time to start pelting him with Egg Toss. He has to use the aerial, pull out Oil Panic, put it away, and continue with his recovery, enough time to start egging him.

His low death percentages also apply vertically. Bucket Braking is not nearly as effective to save against vertical kills, and Yoshi has two good vertical finishers.

Also, how can we spike him out of his recovery if it has invincibility frames? Edge-guarding with anything other than eggs is generally a bad idea due to his overwhelming aerials.

Flutter Kick is a drilling spike that would work as he comes out of the invincibility frames of Fire. He'll try to sweet-spot the edge with Fire, so that usually screams to edgehog or preempt Fire by chasing him.
And edge guarding with eggs usually works well.

Speaking of aerials, you were also wrong about Yoshi having better ones. N-air and b-air are pretty much unstoppable if they are used while Yoshi's in the air. His f-air is a great killer and his u-air can keep us afloat.

Of course Turtle and Tropical Fish ate nigh unstoppable, but he still has a blind spot underneath himself.

I'll concede that Mr. Game & Watch has nasty aerials, but Yoshi probably has the better aerial game overall. I think heavy armor can take Turtle just fine (not entirely sure). Yoshi doesn't really have a weak point in the air, but Mr. Game & Watch does...one we are well-equipped to exploit.


I feel it's still 40-60. Not as disastrous as originally thought, but not neutral.

 

[Gindler]

You're wrong about this. Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket Cancelling makes it so that he can survive 20%-30% more than he should if the player reacts quickly enough. Also, how can we spike him out of his recovery if it has invincibility frames? Edge-guarding with anything other than eggs is generally a bad idea due to his overwhelming aerials. Speaking of aerials, you were also wrong about Yoshi having better ones. N-air and b-air are pretty much unstoppable if they are used while Yoshi's in the air. His f-air is a great killer and his u-air can keep us afloat. Thankfully, his d-air isn't much of a threat.

Bucket cancelling doesn't work THAT well. First he has to do an aerial (all of G&W's aerials take a pretty long time) then he has to bucket all of which time he'll still be going up. I saw in the video that the attacks he was hit with originally didn't knock him into the blast zone anyway, so just hit him with an attack that'll knock him into the blast zone and you're good.




Oh on a side note. Once when a G&W was sweetspotting the edge I just through a standing grab out and it somehow grabbed him before he latched the ledge (and he didn't even overshoot it) and as we all know if you grab him before out of his recovery they can't use it again (the snake curse). I've only done it once but a good wtf moment if you can somehow replicate it...

PS: G&W's dtilt>yoshi

 

[Chaco]

You forgot to mention I posted before that tournament(Which was a doubles tournament, not a singles tournament) that I was not going to be taking singles seriously because it was 2 stock. I also ended up placing the same as UTDzac somehow when I was just screwing around with kirby for most of the tournament. In doubles(the main event) I got 4th with Sethlon <_<.

Seriously though I hated the two stock format and said I wasn't going to be playing seriously before I entered the tournament in the thread.

I swear if we mention your name, you come. I'm going to start saying Hylian in every post. No not really, but anyways. I'd say move on. We know GameN'Watch ***** us in the egg hole.

 

[Poltergust]

@Gindler: That's... amazing! If we can somehow reliably come up with a way to grab him out of his up-B before he sweet-spots the ledge then this match-up could possibly flip entirely. o_O

@Chaco: We know that Mr. Game & Watch owns us. But we need to determine by how much. 40:60? 35:65? 30:70?

 

[_Phloat_]

If Mr. Game & Watch uses the Bucket Brake, that is usually enough time to start pelting him with Egg Toss. He has to use the aerial, pull out Oil Panic, put it away, and continue with his recovery, enough time to start egging him.

I don't know much about eggs, but I am pretty sure GaW can avoid them fairly well offstage.

His low death percentages also apply vertically. Bucket Braking is not nearly as effective to save against vertical kills, and Yoshi has two good vertical finishers.

Can't argue with that, but I would say you are underestimating GaW's ability to avoid kills


Flutter Kick is a drilling spike that would work as he comes out of the invincibility frames of Fire. He'll try to sweet-spot the edge with Fire, so that usually screams to edgehog or preempt Fire by chasing him.
And edge guarding with eggs usually works well.

No. Don't edgeguard GaW. A good GaW will make it back to the stage. All he has to do is use the chute when you go to edgeguard him, recover low, etc. He can recover well in any matchup, the most troubling IMO is MK, but even then edgeguards/gimps are more of the players' fault then the character.


Of course Turtle and Tropical Fish ate nigh unstoppable, but he still has a blind spot underneath himself.

No he doesn't...

I'll concede that Mr. Game & Watch has nasty aerials, but Yoshi probably has the better aerial game overall. I think heavy armor can take Turtle just fine (not entirely sure). Yoshi doesn't really have a weak point in the air, but Mr. Game & Watch does...one we are well-equipped to exploit.

GaW's aerial game has evolved a lot since the first week of this game. You see great players using more Fishbowl than even the almighty turtle. I think you guys are discussing first-week GaW. In what aerial positions do yoshi's have an advantage in the air?


I feel it's still 40-60. Not as disastrous as originally thought, but not neutral.

Responses in "Medium Turquoise" because I am a rebel.

 

[Chaco]

Lol IMO 3:7.

Others would argue that, cough Stocky.

 

[Deleted member]

I WROTE A GINORMOUS PARAGRAPH ON WHY ITS 40-60!

Refute it! Also, people are being silly, you cant egg him while he bucket breaks, or hit him with an aerial. He nairs and buckets, it lets him survive for a while long, and if a G&W player has amazing DI(this is big, it lets them have much more time to bucket break), they are gonna last around as long as snake horizontally.

Vertical finishes are hard to come by, unless u keep ur uair fresh which is super dumb, cuz u cant get hits without it.
G&W ***** yoshi in the air, nair is amazing and beats yoshis everything, just try to be smart and not get juggled too badly, bair is good but can be punished as i state in my long summery WHICH PEOPLE SHOULD READ.

Dont edgeguard G&W ever.

4-6, gg

 

[Tidycats29]

I WROTE A GINORMOUS PARAGRAPH ON WHY ITS 40-60!

Refute it! Also, people are being silly, you cant egg him while he bucket breaks, or hit him with an aerial. He nairs and buckets, it lets him survive for a while long, and if a G&W player has amazing DI(this is big, it lets them have much more time to bucket break), they are gonna last around as long as snake horizontally.

Vertical finishes are hard to come by, unless u keep ur uair fresh which is super dumb, cuz u cant get hits without it.
G&W ***** yoshi in the air, nair is amazing and beats yoshis everything, just try to be smart and not get juggled too badly, bair is good but can be punished as i state in my long summery WHICH PEOPLE SHOULD READ.

Dont edgeguard G&W ever.

4-6, gg

I say its 40-60 G&Ws favor from a bit of recent tournament G-dubs practice. Yoshis uair beats his dair after the first few frames if we space it right, run away from bairs most of the time and ETS, this will not only put pressure, but he will more than likely DI towards u most of the time to try and stop u from your ETS, which is what you want, because yoshi can SHIELD GRAB bair if he is DIing in. Isnt life sweet =) Be aggressive when he is not, make him second guess his game with eggs, dont be an idiot and get hit by his smashes(at least get killed with his predictable fair rather than smashes), you can dtilt but only if you dont suspect a dtilt of his own, if he does that just ETS. G&W can juggle u with nairs and uairs(god i hate that move), dont down b please, just do your best to combine egg momentum shifts and be tricky and get down while taking minimum damage. He cant dsmash from down throw but he can do numerous things depending on your reaction, so if hes smart, you will likely get hit with a follow up or regrabbed a few times a match. Mix up ur techs.

The thing about G&W is he has really lackluster options when you are near him, compared to yoshi who has a magnificent jab and ftilt. Make him play your game, take as little damage as you can from his bairs and try to punish if possible, ALWAYS GO FOR THE UAIR! This is really what i would suggest, he cant dair to safety, so he has to just fall, and at that point, its fine cuz hes falling and you can do whatever you do to any other character(people do different things). Dash attack is a no no here(not like i use it anyways), and G&W still wins because of his survivability(bucket cancel can pretty much make him last long than snake on FD against horizontal kills), and because hes a really good character with amazing hitboxes. Thats it.

Please argue my points instead of "ive lost to a bunch of G&Ws online and i disagree with you cuz i lost" =)

Off topic: I need to get some tourny vids of my yoshi.

Here i brought it up again so people could argue your points XD

i agree mostly with it
though i dont agree with not using down B
i believe thats another weapon to kill G&W quickly
seeing as his close game isn't the best
it's a move that can be used IMO
strategically that is

 

[Deleted member]

I meant in the air sorry, on the ground its good if u wanna punish G&W for something and kill him.

Thanks btw for repostin.

 

[_Phloat_]

Can't really refute too much, I don't know **** about yoshi but that seems right. You might be underestimating u-throw and overestimating d-throw, as both are valuable. I don't know how yoshi's tech is, so once again I take your word the d-throw is more dangerous.

It might be hard to u-air a GaW out of his d-air if he is smart about his FFing and SFing. GaW can "fastfall" his key, which actually makes it slower. This is a great mixup.

Good GaW's aren't going to follow someone who retreats from the turtle, especially once they get punished.

Do you guys have an answer to SH nair-> Dair immediately on shield? I know it can't poke yoshi, but I don't know if he has the tools to punish this... I am learning as we discuss this =]

 

[Tidycats29]

Can't really refute too much, I don't know **** about yoshi but that seems right. You might be underestimating u-throw and overestimating d-throw, as both are valuable. I don't know how yoshi's tech is, so once again I take your word the d-throw is more dangerous.

It might be hard to u-air a GaW out of his d-air if he is smart about his FFing and SFing. GaW can "fastfall" his key, which actually makes it slower. This is a great mixup.

Good GaW's aren't going to follow someone who retreats from the turtle, especially once they get punished.

Do you guys have an answer to SH nair-> Dair immediately on shield? I know it can't poke yoshi, but I don't know if he has the tools to punish this... I am learning as we discuss this =]

I believe we can Shieldgrab that
assuming your dair is in front of us
and it has laggy ending

we can spot dodge it to down B
or shield to down B also

IDK the match up well either lulz

 

[Shiri]

No, we cannot shieldgrab that.

We can roll away or keep the shield up for a prolonged period of time to wait out mistakes. If repeated keys are being slammed against the shield, rolling away becomes an increasingly viable option as the innate lightshielding slide properties of Yoshi's shield will begin to push us away from immediate danger after a few hits from the key and the extra hitbox it creates on the ground.

Unshielding works except for the situations where opposing Game and Watch players can react quickly enough to down tilt or jab instead of using another key. Unshielding into a lucky forward tilt or less lucky jabs for Yoshi can stop repeated key slams most times, give or take a few frames.

Key is not necessary, Game and Watch players, trust me. Just spam the gay stuff. It works on us just like it does on most characters. Neutral air and forward air are all you need, in all honesty. The more complicated you make the match, the more complicated you make it for you to win.

 

[Mmac]

I don't think he can punish Nair from shield, just escape it.

I haven't really used Utilt much though, can it be used to counter Nair/Dair? I know that Timed Usmashes can work against SH Nair's, but I know if Utilt can halt approaches

 

[Poltergust]

Oh, can someone finally test to see if Yoshi's f-smash really goes through Mr. Game & Watch's SH b-air? I've been asking for someone to do that since this topic started. >_>

 

[cutter]

Oh, can someone finally test to see if Yoshi's f-smash really goes through Mr. Game & Watch's SH b-air? I've been asking for someone to do that since this topic started. >_>

I'm pretty sure it cannot beat Bair. Yoshi will headbutt himself right into the turtle and he gets damaged because he extends his hurtbox. Unless it has some invisible disjointed hitbox I'm unaware of though 0_o

 

[Mmac]

I'm pretty sure it cannot beat Bair. Yoshi will headbutt himself right into the turtle and he gets damaged because he extends his hurtbox. Unless it has some invisible disjointed hitbox I'm unaware of though 0_o

His head DOES have Invincibility Frames, during his U/Fsmashs, just don't know how long it reaches for and what time it activates.

I know Usmash does, but I'm not that sure about Fsmash, but many people insists that it does. I use Usmash much more often, so that might be why

 

[Deleted member]

Can't really refute too much, I don't know **** about yoshi but that seems right. You might be underestimating u-throw and overestimating d-throw, as both are valuable. I don't know how yoshi's tech is, so once again I take your word the d-throw is more dangerous.

It might be hard to u-air a GaW out of his d-air if he is smart about his FFing and SFing. GaW can "fastfall" his key, which actually makes it slower. This is a great mixup.

Good GaW's aren't going to follow someone who retreats from the turtle, especially once they get punished.

Do you guys have an answer to SH nair-> Dair immediately on shield? I know it can't poke yoshi, but I don't know if he has the tools to punish this... I am learning as we discuss this =]

We obviously arent going to be able to dodge it most of the time, if we get even a little too close, we are gonna get hit by the bair. And yes, its still not too hard to him him out of dair, we are gonna be hitting him with uair a lot more than he is hittin us with dair. No we dont, thats why we run away and dont shield it. Nair is too good. If the G&W retreats with turtle, he is gonna get egged a ton of the time.

Yoshi can put G&W in a lot of bad positions, we only lose cuz G&W has his super dumb juggling skillz and his amazing hitboxes and kill moves.

On fsmash: It does beat bair, but its not reliable at all. Only if ur sure your gonna hit them should u do it. Up angled fsmashes seem to work best.

 

[Snowstalker]

I'm going to side with Ploat.

 

[Neb]

Am I the only G&W who rarely uses bair?

 

[Chaco]

Am I the only G&W who rarely uses bair?

Nah, I don't either. I rarely use it. I'm more of a dair person...like continuous. O_o

 

[Deleted member]

Probably. Lol, bairs too good.

Also, i havent played too many G&Ws, but the one i played recently was very good(trained by lee puff, if u dont know who that is and you play G&W, shoot urself =P )

 

[Poltergust]

I'm going to side with Ploat.

If that was an attempt on spelling my name then I just feel terrible.