The next iteration of Lucas. The subject of balance.

[victinivcreate1]

This puts real fear in me. Because now I know that Mewtwo is going to be overly nerfed as well.

They're going to get extremely nerfed. The only one that needed it were Mario and Diddy. You could change two things about Mewtwo and he'd be balanced. You could tone down Lucas' offensive attributes a bit and he'd be balanced. Make Sonic's Spin Dash not his ony method of approach and tone Spin down and make up throw not a DI trap, and he'd be balanced. Link just needed a boomerang and dash attack nerf. Pit just needed nerfs on down air and Arrows.

Diddy offensively was insane. Even then, two nerf would have done him in.
Same with Mario. Make him 2.5 Mario and he 's all guud.

 

[Xcite]

Edit: As for the question, yes PK burst kills. At about 160-190 range, depending on the character. I don't know exact numbers, but it's been below 200% on everyone I've used it on so far.

I'd hardly call a move that ko's at 160% a kill move. Most characters should be dead by 120% against Lucas. I'd actually like it a lot if PK Burst was a reliable kill move, I would honestly give up all OU smashes if this were done. (It's such a stylish move) Or if it were reworked to be a combo extender move that would be really cool too (less endlag and favorable angle). Although he already has plenty of those, arguably plenty of finishers as well.

My preferred changes would be:

• Less kill power on upthrow (Not certain how much yet)
• Less active frames on dash grab
• Overall reduction of power and percent to OU smashes (since I doubt they'll be removed)

The dream would be for PK Burst to have either of the attributes I described above but I wouldn't want either of them if the OU smashes aren't changed in some significant way. Other than that, he's perfectly fine the way he is. Lucas mains, you must accept him for the offensive powerhouse that he is. Only then will you be able to become Johny Bravo and style on your opponents. And God damn it, if I can't dishonor my opponent in the most disrespectful way possible, then there is no point to playing Lucas.

 

[NeonApophis]

This puts real fear in me. Because now I know that Mewtwo is going to be overly nerfed as well.

They're going to get extremely nerfed. The only one that needed it were Mario and Diddy. You could change two things about Mewtwo and he'd be balanced. You could tone down Lucas' offensive attributes a bit and he'd be balanced. Make Sonic's Spin Dash not his ony method of approach and tone Spin down and make up throw not a DI trap, and he'd be balanced. Link just needed a boomerang and dash attack nerf. Pit just needed nerfs on down air and Arrows.

Diddy offensively was insane. Even then, two nerf would have done him in.
Same with Mario. Make him 2.5 Mario and he 's all guud.

Mario and Diddy are probably the least broken characters on that list. Sonic and Mewtwo seem the most problematic to me, followed by Lucas, Link, and Pit. There are just so many broken things about Mewtwo and Sonic that most characters don't have a good answer to.

 

[robosteven]

Mario and Diddy are probably the least broken characters on that list.

They do need some tweaks though, Diddy especially.

I just don't understand Lucas and Diddy having kill throws with their already incredible onstage (and offstage) game. Like, at all. They seriously don't need them along with their ****zillion other kill options.

Neon, why is Sonic broken in this build by the way? I actually don't know, I don't get an opportunity to play many Sonic players, and I've only really watched Wizzy. Up-b shenangians are stupid, his recovery is insanely good, and his down-b game is amazing, but could you elaborate what makes him so amazing in this build? I seriously need to know so that I can officially add Sonic to my list of stupid broken crap characters in PM that need fixing, and at this point I don't have any real reasons other than he's 2fast and his recovery's amazing. Like, I might just be playing him completely wrong, but his kill setups aren't easy (except for uair). :/

 

[Kipcom]

As someone who uses a bunch of characters with kill throws (Lucas, Peach, Ness, Lucario), I hate to say it, but in a game like PM where some characters are just super annoying to chase due to their stupid and campy projectiles/character design, I don't mind the kill throws in this game. Maybe when the next update comes out, characters won't have the luxury of camping on one side of the stage and shooting projectiles the entire match for easy % damage, it won't have as much use.

Do I think Lucas' Up-Throw should be nerfed? Sure. I wouldn't mind it taking an extra 20-40% to kill. Remove it completely? ehhhh. I feel like once characters get at a too high percent for typical kill setups, it becomes harder to kill with Lucas, from my experience.

Once characters get too high of a percent, down throw to back air doesn't connect, dair to upsmash won't connect, etc.
Not to mention you can't really just throw any of Lucas' smash attacks out at random. They have too much cool down and are pretty punishable for the most part (well besides f smash, I guess). Not to mention at those percents, opponents become way more aware about avoiding grabs.

I guess you could say it's my fault for not killing them earlier or getting an earlier edgeguard on them, but idk.

Let's face it, his combo potential is getting nerfed anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if his shield pressure capabilities got canned, and well... we already know about his recovery. He may as well keep the kill throw, although make it weaker (and remove like half the active frames on the dash grab, like how did that even get a pass?).

 

[robosteven]

tl;dr, I don't mind the kill throws in this game.

My favorite two characters in this game are Oli and Ness, both of which have kill throws. I don't mind kill throws either, but the main difference is the amount of things Lucas has as well as a kill throw. Ness I don't mind at all, Peach my opinion is the same, it's just that Lucas's is so good.

also yo which Lucario throw is a kill throw I had no idea he had one

 

[Kipcom]

My favorite two characters in this game are Oli and Ness, both of which have kill throws. I don't mind kill throws either, but the main difference is the amount of things Lucas has as well as a kill throw. Ness I don't mind at all, Peach my opinion is the same, it's just that Lucas's is so good.

also yo which Lucario throw is a kill throw I had no idea he had one

His side B kills at high percents when you use it with the aura charge.

Sure it's not a traditional grab, but command grabs are still technically grabs.

 

[robosteven]

His side B kills at high percents when you use it with the aura charge.

Sure it's not a traditional grab, but command grabs are still technically grabs.

That's a little different, especially considering you need an aura charge to actually do it. Not nearly as easy to land as a standard grab.

 

[Zimflare]

That's a little different, especially considering you need an aura charge to actually do it. Not nearly as easy to land as a standard grab.

It's pretty easy to get since it's part of his magic series/built in turbo mode. Especially if they are trying to shield grab. And it's also quite common they would be storing their aura charge. I mean, he does start with one and you only need to do a little under 50 percent to get another.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Spoiler alert: Lucas is one of the most changed characters in the upcoming 3.5 release. Pretty sure I'm not allowed to delve into details, but I played a bit of 3.5 with a P:M developer/backroom member/whatever you want to call it. He is quite a bit different from his current build, but so is everyone else. The game itself is changing massively, it will be quite a bit closer to Melee.

Sad to say, from my very limited experience, I don't think Lucas will be close to top 5, maybe not even top 10 in the upcoming release. I'm all for balance, but I am going to really miss this current build, he is sooooo much fun right now. I don't think he is broken either, he just has some things that could have been tweaked, rather than just downright changed.

Enjoy the current version while you can everyone. P:M is about to look very different.

Something to remember when reading this post is that until it's officially released, nothing is set in stone in these test builds you might play with a pm developer. They go through a lot of potential ideas when developing, and yesterdays nerf could be a buff the next day, or even a completely new move. From what I've been told though, it would be safe to assume that the next update would resemble melee a bit more. The degree of which, is still to be determined. So don't panic just yet, and if it turns out to be true, keep an open mind and don't dismiss their decisions without giving it some thought. I guarantee you that a lot of thought has been put into their decisions, so it certainly isn't on a whim the reason why they do the things they do.

 

[Spice]

Something to remember when reading this post is that until it's officially released, nothing is set in stone in these test builds you might play with a pm developer. They go through a lot of potential ideas when developing, and yesterdays nerf could be a buff the next day, or even a completely new move. From what I've been told though, it would be safe to assume that the next update would resemble melee a bit more. The degree of which, is still to be determined. So don't panic just yet, and if it turns out to be true, keep an open mind and don't dismiss their decisions without giving it some thought. I guarantee you that a lot of thought has been put into their decisions, so it certainly isn't on a whim the reason why they do the things they do.

This is a good point, I am worried but I always reserve judgement until the final product is out and I can play it for myself. Personally I'm not super happy with the direction the PMDT has gone, as I would have preferred minor nerfs to fix metagame problems and let the current build still grow (I think its superb), but I'm not on the team so what can you do? Just wait and see I guess, and then adapt or leave.

Mario and Diddy are probably the least broken characters on that list. Sonic and Mewtwo seem the most problematic to me, followed by Lucas, Link, and Pit. There are just so many broken things about Mewtwo and Sonic that most characters don't have a good answer to.

I'm inclined to agree with this for the most part, but Mario is definitely broken in that his recovery is insane AND difficult to edgeguard (Diddy's is actually very easy to edgeguard, most people just REALLY don't seem to get it right for some reason. I know from firsthand experience as a Diddy main that proper edgeguarding is an absolute nightmare for Diddy). Lucas is really not broken in his current build, as its been stated a little nerf to offensive power through increased percentage requirements for upthrow kills and such would really put him back in check.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Lucas is definitely broken lol. The amount of options he has is absolutely insane. Its not like Mewtwo where he has like 2 things to be janky with. Lucas has about 7 things he can body people with.

 

[Spice]

Lucas is definitely broken lol. The amount of options he has is absolutely insane. Its not like Mewtwo where he has like 2 things to be janky with. Lucas has about 7 things he can body people with.

But to play him at a really competitive level and do these things requires an insane amount of solid tech skill and spacing. Lucas is a ridiculously good weight to be combo'd, a lot of his moves are HORRENDOUSLY punishable when they miss (a missed grab or up-smash is doom against a good opponent) and his recovery (while insane close to the stage) covers very little distance, so knocking him back far enough is death.

The myriad of options that Lucas has makes him more difficult to play because you have to tie together very different things to combo people, rather than 6 forward airs and then a down air like Marth. The idea of Lucas is amazing and very well executed in my opinion. He rewards you a LOT for a ton of tech practice, and punishes you miserably for messing up. He is an extremely polar character, and aside from some necessary minor nerfs I think he is one of the most interesting characters they've made.

 

[robosteven]

Lucas is definitely broken lol. The amount of options he has is absolutely insane. Its not like Mewtwo where he has like 2 things to be janky with. Lucas has about 7 things he can body people with.

The difference is that Mewtwo's 2 things work on everyone all the time.

 

[victinivcreate1]

But to play him at a really competitive level and do these things requires an insane amount of solid tech skill and spacing. Lucas is a ridiculously good weight to be combo'd, a lot of his moves are HORRENDOUSLY punishable when they miss (a missed grab or up-smash is doom against a good opponent) and his recovery (while insane close to the stage) covers very little distance, so knocking him back far enough is death.

The myriad of options that Lucas has makes him more difficult to play because you have to tie together very different things to combo people, rather than 6 forward airs and then a down air like Marth. The idea of Lucas is amazing and very well executed in my opinion. He rewards you a LOT for a ton of tech practice, and punishes you miserably for messing up. He is an extremely polar character, and aside from some necessary minor nerfs I think he is one of the most interesting characters they've made.

Lucas has great design, but lousy execution. Same with Mewtwo.

Also the fact that Lucas gets punished for button mashing too slow I feel is a problem. Button mashing with Fox won't get you particularly far, but with Lucas it takes you pretty far, since for every DI he has a coverage option. Its kinda ridiculous. His combo game is extremely free (and the fact that he has an infinite on floaties is a bit much), and you get huge reward while putting in not much work. Lucas is factually a slower character than spacies, his tech skill is relatively easier compared to them. He has a lot of button inputs, however he is not extremely technical. His jump squat is 5 frames I believe same as Falco's, however, unlike Falco, Lucas has several techs that give him 1-2 frames of leeway to perform, AND he has variations of his shield pressure (multimags, Mag djc aerials, mag nair mag nair, stuff like that), while many of Falco's perfect shield pressure require him to be frame perfect and is kinda limited to shine grab and multishine.

 

[CBO0tz]

I'm not really a Lucas player, but I feel as though he shouldn't have a tether at all in the next build of PM. For starters, it doesn't even belong to him in his own game, and in terms of game-play, the rope snake allows for ridiculous extensions of combos, and it adds a little too much onto a very decent recovery already. If it was gotten rid of, Lucas would be pretty nerfed, but without going too overboard for character tweaks.

 

[Eisen]

For starters, it doesn't even belong to him in his own game

I don't remember if he actually uses it or not/can use it or if it's only Duster, but I think it's safe to say he relies on it still to some degree, e.g. the point in the game where

Spoiler

Everyone in the party is hanging on by rope snake to the helicopter

It was also part of his design in Brawl, and with tethers getting such a severe nerf in the next build (as well as the design philosophy of the game itself changing entirely), I really don't foresee it being a problem. The PMDT has already addressed they're "trimming the fat" on a ton of characters, and I'm confident that due to this acknowledgement that Lucas is easily on their minds as a candidate for the aforementioned trimming.

Plus, you REALLY wouldn't want Lucas with a normal grab anyway. He'd be even less punishable than he is right now.

 

[Kipcom]

I'm not really a Lucas player, but I feel as though he shouldn't have a tether at all in the next build of PM. For starters, it doesn't even belong to him in his own game

Yeah, okay... is this really a complaint?

Let's remove Snake's Up-B as well since he never uses it in MGS (at least not how it's done in Smash)
Get rid of ZSS' whip
Let's remove Ness' PK Thunder and Fire along with his Final Smash. He doesn't use those in Earthbound.
etc. You get the point. The Snake was in Mother 3 and Sakurai implemented it into his moveset. Nobody said Smash had to go by complete canon of other game. lol

Plus, his recovery is already taking a hit, if you didn't know. No more magnet stalling, tether-to-ledge range pretty much got cut in half, he won't be able to drift left or right as well once he goes into freefall from PKT2. By 3.5, PKT2 will more than likely be his main choice of recovery for players with his tether being more of a mixup option for his recovery.

As for it extending combos, i'm not even sure why this is a complaint. It's a pretty neat/creative way of extending combos and other characters with a Z-tether can do this too.

Basically his tether will be fine in 3.5 and I see no reason to actually remove it considering it's been tweaked already.