The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[etecoon]

diddy also loses to snake, beyond that you get a lot of different opinions on the snake vs wario, marth, and falco matchups that go anywhere from "snake ***** this character" to "this character ***** snake"...olimar and pikachu too actually lol

 

[Juushichi]

As much as I hate to give one liners, I will:

"Brawl doesn't have a traditional fighting game tier list because it's not a traditional fighting game."

 

[Kewkky]

As much as I hate to give one liners, I will:

"Brawl doesn't have a traditional fighting game tier list because it's not a traditional fighting game."

Brawl may not be a traditional fighter, but the competitive ruleset and gamestyle is based around a 'traditional' fighting games'. Time limit, the illusion of "health bars (3 stocks)", combos, 1v1s... Isn't what every smasher says these days, along the lines of "Smash is the fighting game franchise i like the most"?

 

[Raziek]

Kewkky, I don't know what's NOT to get here. MK is alone because he's THAT MUCH BETTER than the rest of A tier. Plenty of tier lists have done things like that. IIRC, The most recent SC4 tier list has Hilde and Algol alone in A+ or something like that, and some regions have both of them banned. Guilty Gear I think has Eddie, Testament and Jam separate from the rest of the cast.

When characters are THAT much better, you show it. You're merely arguing aesthetics here, which is wasted conversation, imo. It's better than the previous off topic-ness, but not by much.

 

[Kewkky]

I don't think I'm trying to argue aesthetics, personally I think it's just that I lack the proper wordplay to convey what my concern was. And since I lack it, I just dump in a whole bunch of questions into one paragraph trying to make people see it from my point of view, instead of just being blunt and wording my questions in a straightforward manner.

Anyway, a good night's sleep has cleared my head, so don't worry about it anymore.

 

[Purple]

As much as I hate to give one liners, I will:

"Brawl doesn't have a traditional fighting game tier list because it's not a traditional fighting game."

wtf... we do have a traditional fighting game tier list. wtf are you guys talking about LOL

Also, MK does deserve to be by himself, because he has five points more than the next leading person. which is pretty ridiculous.]

However, if you check the character rankings list, even with tournament results, marth should be with snake in A tier. weird eh?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Stop exaggerating. It's not amazingly easy to land, but anyone saying that the move is downright awful seriously needs to stop what they're doing and actually play the **** game. :\

I just wanted to reply to this.

Because in case you weren't aware, there have been a lot of people who have come up to me believing that I am in fact a Ganon main.

If that isn't a statement as to the fact that my Ganon is ****ing legit, I don't know what is. I have in fact also used Ganondorf in tournament.

People who get hit by SideB just don't know the matchup. In actuality, it's a horrible move with massive risk and medium reward. Yeah, I mean I've had my fair share of fun times getting people to roll into techchase D-airs which is probably the best reason to go for a Flame Choke, but smart people just realize that Ganon can't really significantly punish you for rolling away or waiting. In fact he actually has a lot of trouble punishing getup attacks.

Yeah you have some guaranteed combos as well, it's just a pity that his F-tilt and D-tilt don't kill really early. Oh yeah DA can kill pretty early, but it's actually difficult to buffer.

You know what's a relatively low risk high reward techchase tool? Snake's D-throw.

Now to change subjects, Bowser's aerial SideB is overrated. I mean seriously, it's frame 17. You can anti-air that **** on reaction. One reason why Ganon goes neutral with Bowser lol.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If MK is in a tier of his own, why isn't he banned?

 

[Justblaze647]

If MK is in a tier of his own, why isn't he banned?

He's too popular

 

[ShadowLink84]

If MK is in a tier of his own, why isn't he banned?

You should know better than to say something so incredibly silly.

 

[Kofu]

I just wanted to reply to this.

Because in case you weren't aware, there have been a lot of people who have come up to me believing that I am in fact a Ganon main.

If that isn't a statement as to the fact that my Ganon is ****ing legit, I don't know what is. I have in fact also used Ganondorf in tournament.

People who get hit by SideB just don't know the matchup. In actuality, it's a horrible move with massive risk and medium reward. Yeah, I mean I've had my fair share of fun times getting people to roll into techchase D-airs which is probably the best reason to go for a Flame Choke, but smart people just realize that Ganon can't really significantly punish you for rolling away or waiting. In fact he actually has a lot of trouble punishing getup attacks.

Yeah you have some guaranteed combos as well, it's just a pity that his F-tilt and D-tilt don't kill really early. Oh yeah DA can kill pretty early, but it's actually difficult to buffer.

You know what's a relatively low risk high reward techchase tool? Snake's D-throw.

Now to change subjects, Bowser's aerial SideB is overrated. I mean seriously, it's frame 17. You can anti-air that **** on reaction. One reason why Ganon goes neutral with Bowser lol.

You know the more I read your posts the more ridiculous you seem.

Aerial Klaw has more range that you think it does, deals a considerable amount of damage (about 18.5%) fresh, and has grab armor.

Plus any Koopa mains that are foolishly approaching with Aerial Side-B will get punished, and you'll be hard pressed to find a good one that does.

 

[GwJ]

I was reading his post then I saw his name. I stopped reading.

 

[Kofu]

He has some points, but others are just... odd and incorrect.

I forgot to mention that Aerial Klaw gives Bowser a lot more mobility, options, and gives him practically no landing lag. ggs

 

[Turbo Ether]

I just wanted to reply to this.

Because in case you weren't aware, there have been a lot of people who have come up to me believing that I am in fact a Ganon main.

If that isn't a statement as to the fact that my Ganon is ****ing legit, I don't know what is. I have in fact also used Ganondorf in tournament.

People who get hit by SideB just don't know the matchup. In actuality, it's a horrible move with massive risk and medium reward. Yeah, I mean I've had my fair share of fun times getting people to roll into techchase D-airs which is probably the best reason to go for a Flame Choke, but smart people just realize that Ganon can't really significantly punish you for rolling away or waiting. In fact he actually has a lot of trouble punishing getup attacks.

Yeah you have some guaranteed combos as well, it's just a pity that his F-tilt and D-tilt don't kill really early. Oh yeah DA can kill pretty early, but it's actually difficult to buffer.

You know what's a relatively low risk high reward techchase tool? Snake's D-throw.

Now to change subjects, Bowser's aerial SideB is overrated. I mean seriously, it's frame 17. You can anti-air that **** on reaction. One reason why Ganon goes neutral with Bowser lol.

This post is legit. You sound like someone that actually understands fighting principles.

You know the more I read your posts the more ridiculous you seem.

Aerial Klaw has more range that you think it does, deals a considerable amount of damage (about 18.5%) fresh, and has grab armor.

Plus any Koopa mains that are foolishly approaching with Aerial Side-B will get punished, and you'll be hard pressed to find a good one that does.

Way to strawman his statement. The only property he mentioned regarding the Koopa Klaw, was that a 17 frame startup is terrible and he is 100% correct.

 

[Kofu]

If he thinks that Ganon can't punish very well, he's extremely wrong; it's his best ability. I agree with a lot of his post, but the specifics are what bug me. Yes, Snake's DThrow is a low-risk, high reward techchase. Yes, Ganon's is a high-risk, medium reward one.

How heavily he's downplaying Flame Choke is just wrong though. You're not supposed to approach with it. Prediction is how you get that move in. It's still one of Ganondorf's best ways to set up for a kill, especially with Dash Attack.

I was also agreeing with him on Bowser's Side-B being slow. I don't deny that. However, it's better than he thinks it is, even though it is a slow move. Its utility more than makes up for it.

 

[Kitamerby]

Mach Tornado has a hitbox on Frame 27.

You can anti-air that **** on reaction.

 

[Flayl]

Uh, to aerial a klaw "on reaction" as ganon you need to input the jump + aerial 4 frames after you see the beginning of the animation of the klaw.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think 17 frames of startup is a pretty good trade for a move that has a whooping 3 frames of landing lag, has grab priority, can grab in the air, deals 19% damage fresh and beats or trades with moves like D3 backair.

 

[Flayl]

There's also the hopping on bananas without tripping and general mobility boost.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

If MK is in a tier of his own, why isn't he banned?

Stupid comment is stupid.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok people, you need to understand that it's a matter of mix-up potential, let's say for example, I predict a spotdodge or a laggy move, I can FC the endlag, it's things like that which result in people getting legitimately FC'd.

FC would be an amazing move... if somebody else had it, like 90% of Ganon's other moveset.

 

[Purple]

If MK is in a tier of his own, why isn't he banned?

*pats back*

 

[Kinzer]

Ignore this post.

 

[Espy Rose]

I wish Sonic had Ganon's dair.

That would be so cash.

 

[Kofu]

I wish Ganon had Sonic's Up B.

That would be so cash.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Oh sure, while we're on the subject, I wish Falco's lasers exploded like C4 when they hit and then rained bananas and bombs down after the explosion with each bomb explosion unleashing more bananas and bombs.

 

[Kofu]

And then the game would freeze from all the bananas. :x

 

[Espy Rose]

I wish Ganon had Sonic's Up B.

That would be so cash.

Ganon could chase people in the air above him after he hits a grounded opponent with dair.

That levels on pants-****ting fear, boy.

 

[Watkins]

Oh sure, while we're on the subject, I wish Falco's lasers exploded like C4 when they hit and then rained bananas and bombs down after the explosion with each bomb explosion unleashing more bananas and bombs.

Someone call the Brawl- crew, we have some kind of genius innovator here.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Too broken for broken brawl.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Oh sure, while we're on the subject, I wish Falco's lasers exploded like C4 when they hit and then rained bananas and bombs down after the explosion with each bomb explosion unleashing more bananas and bombs.

So the bombs and explosions exponentially increase until the game crashes and you win by default.

gg cp?

 

[YagamiLight]

Ok people, you need to understand that it's a matter of mix-up potential, let's say for example, I predict a spotdodge or a laggy move, I can FC the endlag, it's things like that which result in people getting legitimately FC'd.

FC would be an amazing move... if somebody else had it, like 90% of Ganon's other moveset.

To expand on this, I would like to say that the reason Flame Choke is not good on Ganondorf is because nobody NEEDS to use a spotdodge or a laggy move against him. Doing so is merely a matter of preference (and probably a mistake in the match-up anyway). The only things Ganondorf has that force spotdodges are: standing grab (horrible), dash grab (horrible), pivot grab (would be good if it wasn't Ganon), Flame Choke itself (would be good if it wasn't on Ganondorf) and Dark Dive (as an attack?!). The only time Ganondorf should get an FC off is if he dashes towards you and you think it's a character who can actually do something and spotdodge by instinct.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Give the man a medal, exactly right.


Ganon's problem in a nutshell, what the hell can he do against a shielding opponent? He has no effective ways to force people out of shield.




As a Ganondorf move, it's still good relative to his moveset because it has grab priority and can catch people out of things with proper prediction. But like most of his moveset, it fails because of the general attributes of the character.

 

[Kinzer]

[Sarcasm]I don't know, doesn't the shield like wear down after some time?

May just be a hunch, I don't know *shrug*.[/Sarcasm]

/Devil's advocate.

 

[Z'zgashi]

just give ganon his ****ing sword

 

[Kofu]

Sword characters suck.
I hate swords. in Smash

 

[Clai]

In fact he actually has a lot of trouble punishing getup attacks.

Yeah you have some guaranteed combos as well, it's just a pity that his F-tilt and D-tilt don't kill really early. Oh yeah DA can kill pretty early, but it's actually difficult to buffer.

I can't say this with certainty as most of the character boards don't have frame data for get-up attacks, but it can't be too hard to powershield get-up attacks on reaction, just learn the tick that tells you a GUA is coming and PS for punishment.

F-tilt does its job just fine. If you don't see it coming and don't DI the move, it sends the opponent at an angle perfect for tipman edgeguarding. If you can predict the opponent DI'ing up, catch the opponent standing up with a Fsmash to the face.

Ganon's problem in a nutshell, what the hell can he do against a shielding opponent? He has no effective ways to force people out of shield.

If your opponent is busy shielding, then he's busy not getting inside and ****** Ganon, so at least that's good for something. There's not too much reason for an opponent to just sit in his shield anyway, as he can PS most of Ganon's moves on reaction anyway. Ganon can, well, run a lot and hope that your opponent thinks that Ganon can do something.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mach Tornado has a hitbox on Frame 27.

You can anti-air that **** on reaction.

You are my favorite poster on Smashboards.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I wish Sonic had Ganon's dair.

That would be so cash.

Sonic's Dair originally spiked from what I hear.

My god if only they had kept it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Get real, acting like Ganon's only good trait is his ability to uh, hope his opponents don't know how bad he is is a little silly. Ganon has a lot of cool attributes, even if he sucks, like only needing to land five moves to win a match.