The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Kewkky]

Look, in super theory bros. it's really easy to say "Just shield vs ZSS when she's in mid-range and spot dodge the grab" and people have tried to do it before and failed. Her weakness to shields isn't THAT profound and she does have affacks that are safe on shield, and side-b isn't punishable on shield (except on powershield) by most characters at max range. As m2k has said before, and it's something I largely agree with, it doesn't matter what's possible in terms of frame data if on a human level it will never happen. ZSS' big exploitable weakness is very real, but it isn't something that is ever going to cause her to lose every match against a good player. She might eat a utilt or something occasionally though.

Do you understand what I'm using frame data for? I'm not saying "this is frame 10 and that is frame 11 so i'm gonna win, end of discussion", I'm saying that if I'm shielding a lot, and you try a grab on me, I have 16 frames (roughly 1/4 of a second) to roll or spotdodge. If your opponents can't react that fast well you have my congratulations, but on a human level, it's completely doable, requires no buffering, and you have a window for error.

The fact that no one does it is probably because of the same reason MKs don't plank/scrooge on a consistent basis... It's BORING. If it was me (and if you were ZSS), I'd be looking to punish you everytime you hit my shield, or whenever I thought you'd be doing a grab, to have enough time to charge a smash. Those mistakes make it so that ZSS keeps winning encounters, you have the speed to punish me for tinking I could punish you and missing.

Now, if I just played patiently and only attacked you when you whiffed a grab or committed to an attack... I don't think it would be easy at all for a ZSS to beat me then and there.



(sorry for taking forever, i'm doing other stuff)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Like Turbo Ether said, one placing shouldn't mean an immediate change, these tier list changes need to happen over time.

And yet, this is basically what has happened with several characters. Maybe not one placing, but two or three when it came to PT, Falcon, and Ness. And you could argue that MLG tournaments are worth more than those tournaments. The only non-A+ tier characters I can think of off of the top of my head that have MLG points are Luigi, Ness, PT, Ike, and ZSS. I don't believe PT showed up again at Columbus so if he gets a rise, it should be smaller than the rest. I'd have to wait for an update in MLG points, but I believe if you went by score, ZSS should get the biggest boost, followed by Luigi, Ike, Ness, and finally PT. The other characters in the top are expected to be there.

I've never agreed with the idea of one person being able to single handily move a character up on the tier list, but if that's how things are around here: Luigi, ZSS, Ness, and Ike should all be getting a boost next tier list. If it doesn't happen it's painfully obvious bias. *shrugs*

 

[Turbo Ether]

Just based on the MK and Snake match-ups, I would say she does. Other than Falco her worst match-up is 4/6 and there aren't that many of them. And yeah, Falco is bad, but to be fair, Falco has match-ups worse than his match-up with ZSS with one or two characters that make his life very difficult.

The easiest way to determine which characters have the best matchups would be to throw all the matchups into a spreadsheet and tally the results. The problem is that this community has always had inconsistent matchup information, and bias is often a factor.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And yet, this is basically what has happened with several characters. Maybe not one placing, but two or three when it came to PT, Falcon, and Ness. And you could argue that MLG tournaments are worth more than those tournaments. The only non-A+ tier characters I can think of off of the top of my head that have MLG points are Luigi, Ness, PT, Ike, and ZSS. I don't believe PT showed up again at Columbus so if he gets a rise, it should be smaller than the rest. I'd have to wait for an update in MLG points, but I believe if you went by score, ZSS should get the biggest boost, followed by Luigi, Ike, Ness, and finally PT. The other characters in the top are expected to be there.

I've never agreed with the idea of one person being able to single handily move a character up on the tier list, but if that's how things are around here: Luigi, ZSS, Ness, and Ike should all be getting a boost next tier list. If it doesn't happen it's painfully obvious bias. *shrugs*

^^^^

10 carrots

Once again, Riddle also placed really well in Orlando, just not in the money, and has been getting top 3 in Florida (now a very strong region) for a long time. It's not even just about this one tournament.

 

[Purple]

I still stand by the idea that Outliers make characters look better than they are. That being said, we should definitely (like all of us, the people who are right now talking in this thread). Should begin researching in an unbiased manner a full spread sheet of matches. I know there is one right now, but it's literally a copy pasta of all of the information from each character specific site.

 

[Turbo Ether]

And yet, this is basically what has happened with several characters. Maybe not one placing, but two or three when it came to PT, Falcon, and Ness. And you could argue that MLG tournaments are worth more than those tournaments. The only non-A+ tier characters I can think of off of the top of my head that have MLG points are Luigi, Ness, PT, Ike, and ZSS. I don't believe PT showed up again at Columbus so if he gets a rise, it should be smaller than the rest. I'd have to wait for an update in MLG points, but I believe if you went by score, ZSS should get the biggest boost, followed by Luigi, Ike, Ness, and finally PT. The other characters in the top are expected to be there.

I've never agreed with the idea of one person being able to single handily move a character up on the tier list, but if that's how things are around here: Luigi, ZSS, Ness, and Ike should all be getting a boost next tier list. If it doesn't happen it's painfully obvious bias. *shrugs*

You're correct. Has the BBR actually disclosed what criteria they specifically use to tier each character? It seems mostly performance based, and in that case, those characters would deserve a boost. Unreliable method.

 

[Purple]

Actually, a lot of things go into the Brawl Backroom tier list. Much of it is frame data, tournament results, and information from character specific threads believe it or not. However, it's hard to believe a character is B tier when the character barely shows up in tournament results. Everything is used, but tournament results (from what the BBR has given us) is the most important factor.

 

[Kitamerby]

There were TWO Donkey Kongs that got 17th place.

And one got a bad bracket, so

 

[Purple]

And so this conversation goes to the dump.

 

[#HBC | J]

if tier lists most important factor is tournament results....what about Lucas?

His MUs are the only thing keeping him there because otherwise no one uses him. He is as sparce at a tournament as Jiggs. Except MLG which had 3 Lucas' and none placed exceptionally. =/

And even though he has okay MUs they are still pitiful to other characters.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Lucas is really bad. Like, really bad. Like, Zelda-style anti-hype and drop incoming.

 

[Purple]

if tier lists most important factor is tournament results....what about Lucas?

His MUs are the only thing keeping him there because otherwise no one uses him. He is as sparce at a tournament as Jiggs. Except MLG which had 3 Lucas' and none placed exceptionally. =/

You know, we could make a fan based tier list.

 

[Kewkky]

You're correct. Has the BBR actually disclosed what criteria they specifically use to tier each character? It seems mostly performance based, and in that case, those characters would deserve a boost. Unreliable method.

But... The first page shows everything you need. : |

We vote on the placings, then average them out. That's basically it: a collection of everyone's opinions, smushed together into a list. : \

 

[Purple]

But... The first page shows everything you need. : |

We vote on the placings, then average them out. That's basically it: a collection of everyone's opinions, smushed together into a list. : \

Opinions are data? I never would've guessed. It should be data first, then experience second, then redone over and over again until a ratio is agreed upon.

 

[#HBC | J]

drop incoming.

Lucas is not that bad

However I can agree with a HUUUUUUGE drop incoming.

Probably around idk Samus :S eh but man it won't be pretty.

 

[Kole]

if tier lists most important factor is tournament results....what about Lucas?

His MUs are the only thing keeping him there because otherwise no one uses him. He is as sparce at a tournament as Jiggs. Except MLG which had 4 Lucas' and none placed exceptionally. =/

And even though he has okay MUs they are still pitiful to other characters.

We need to step up our Rucas game

 

[Purple]

I just realized, that in order for every match up to be clearly discussed to it's optimal level. There would have to be 1332 matchup discussions.

unless I did the math.

 

[#HBC | J]

We need to step up our Rucas game

Yes indeed Kole....yes indeed T_T

And wow Roxy that is aloooooooooot of discussions @_@ but it would help to get it started sooner rather than later.

 

[Kewkky]

Opinions are data? I never would've guessed. It should be data first, then experience second, then redone over and over again until a ratio is agreed upon.

Our opinions are formed around the data we receive. We all discuss it, we have to learn from each other, we play in tourneys and stuff. it's ust that since people will never agree on the same thing, as soon as everyone know what they NEED to know, we average things up.

There's a lot of things wrong with MU discussions, and how they're the end-all be-all data. Even MUs are based on votes, you know. The majority says it's 55:45 and minority says 50:50? Then it's gonna end up being 55:45 on the forums... So, a tier list based on MUs would also be based on votes.

 

[Browny]

Opinions are data? I never would've guessed. It should be data first, then experience second, then redone over and over again until a ratio is agreed upon.

This should be a sticky thread, just this post alone.

The current method for determining the tier list is horrible.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think its closer to 700 ish but its a very high amount


actual match ups on a tier list doesn't always mean jack

take marth who is considered to have 2nd or 3rd best overall match ups

but loses to metaknight.........


now honestly I think ZSS should be B tier having a few disadvantedge match ups however I don't see the match ups she loses to paticularly worse then pikachu and even more so DOESN'T lose as badly to METAKNIGHT.


San is an outlier unless he is the only good ike I can't say wether he should be moved up or down

Link is a mid tier character with terrible recovery and is really dependant on how well you can space honestly his spacing demand is comparable to marths. However he isn't exceptional and his recovery is pretty bad

 

[Blacknight99923]

accidental double post

 

[Ussi]

I can't wait till MLG Dallas, Mr. Doom is gonna step up to the plate then

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

The easiest way to determine which characters have the best matchups would be to throw all the matchups into a spreadsheet and tally the results. The problem is that this community has always had inconsistent matchup information, and bias is often a factor.

This has already been done. Check out TeeKayDee's tier list on aib.

All of the high placing mid/low-tier characters deserve another look. Whoever said that ZSS has not been placing well is completely ignorant of her past year tournament results. I regularly check all of the tournament result threads to stay updated w/ any newcoming & veteran top finishers. ZSS has been placing well mainly on the EC.

Ness, Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Ike, & Wolf are A LOT better than their current tier placement.

I'll tell more later

 

[#HBC | J]

now honestly I think ZSS should be B tier having a few disadvantedge match ups however I don't see the match ups she loses to paticularly worse then pikachu and even more so DOESN'T lose as badly to METAKNIGHT.

Wasn't there a certain birdy who goes "pew pew" and I don't recall Pika being bad (well iirc)

 

[Blacknight99923]

if it wasn't pikachu obviously falco as well, but when you look at D3 who is invalidated by ice climbers metaknight and falco or pikachu who loses to marth and metaknight. the rest of b tier match ups aren't any better then ZSS's or at the very list not significantly

 

[Purple]

I understand what you're saying Kewkky, trust me, I do. People using the data they recieve about characters, and then piling the information together, discussing it, and coming up with a majority vote on what the match-up ratio is is perfectly fine if you have unbiased individuals (read: BBR) discussing these things. However, what I'm asking you is that is this tier list as of right now based off of which characters have the best match-ups, or is based off of opinion first, then match-up second?

Initially, we should be getting data on each character, than by opinion and research, make the matchups. We should be doing this for every character in the game, using every decent or knowledgeable player's information in order to get an unbiased pile of results for every Match Up (which is a horribly daunting process).

After all of the matchups are done, we use that data to see who is the best score (for lack of a better word) matchup wise. That is the tier list, no opinions after this point are needed, if there are problems, the matchups need to be rediscussed piece by piece, and then you have to weight out whether or not the character is actually deserving of a drop or boost.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Blackknight:

They aren't better at all. As a matter of fact, they're worse.

Dedede, Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, and GaW all have one thing in common: they lose to MK really badly. Some of them lose worse than others, and some have other match-ups they don't do very well in (Dedede with Falco and ICs, Pikachu with Marth, GaW with, like, a ton of characters). ZSS has one: Falco. Her match-up spread is more like Wario's or Pikachu's (and slightly worse than Marth's) than anyone else in A, B, or C tier.

 

[Purple]

Quick question that I think is very important in the aspect of matchup discussion.

Would making a tier list based off of merely who does best against MK SNake, and other common matchups make the best tier list?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Just looked up character rankings and list

ZSS outplaces in tournaments both TL and pit although is only a slot above TL around 5 above G&W and about 10 above pit

tournament results point to ZSS being a B tier character over TL G&W and Pit however not anyone above that
edit to anwser Roxys question MK then snake diddy falco ICs

marth is essentially Mks match ups but not as good and I don't think wario does better in any match up then MK does

but essentially yes how you do against high tiers should take priority

 

[Ussi]

Oyi character ranking list... ZSS is gonna have a major jump once Columbus is factored in.

can you imagine the jump Ike and Ness would get if they were counted?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not necessarily. Any argument you have for that would end up circular (Ie, say our match-ups were based off of how well you did vs. MK, because MK is the best character. But why is MK the best character? You have to be able to answer that without referencing MK himself, and if the tier list is based off that, you can't.)

Basically, when you create a tier list, you can't base it off of any assumptions or we run into logical loop holes. If Marth is not very good because of his match-up with MK, that's OK in our current system because it's based largely from tournament results we have to prove that a MK-centric metagame hurts Marth. In the proposed system it isn't OK, Marth is second even if he loses to MK.

Maybe I'm not making this clear enough, but for a system like that to work we need a base assumption SOMEWHERE. MK is the best, Ganon is the worst, whatever. But none of that is logical.

 

[Kitamerby]

Oyi character ranking list... ZSS is gonna have a major jump once Columbus is factored in.

can you imagine the jump Ike and Ness would get if they were counted?

It'll only last a few months. Once that's over, she'll shoot right back down to where she belongs.

Also, ZSS only has a good matchup against bad MKs who don't know the matchup.

When they actually do know the matchup, we get M2K vs Nickriddle.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It'll only last a few months. Once that's over, she'll shoot right back down to where she belongs.

Also, ZSS only has a good matchup against bad MKs who don't know the matchup.

When they actually do know the matchup, we get M2K vs Nickriddle.

M2k 3-1'd Ally, too. I hear the MK vs Snake match-up is pretty bad.

Also, Nick lost because (reportedly) he was getting gimped out of his tether. M2k was hanging around the ledge and waiting for the side-b and then nairing him out of it every time. That really shouldn't kill you though because a little known fact is that ZSS can down-b in the middle of the tehter any time for invinc frames and then flipstool MK; she should really never die from that. I was really surprised when I heard that was happening.

EDIT: lol you think seibrik and tyrant don't know the match-up. or ksizzle who seconds zss and has played all kinds of ZSS (snakeee, probably dazwa) plenty and lost to nick 2-0

Get over it, that argument is tired.

 

[Kitamerby]

M2k 3-1'd Ally, too. I hear the MK vs Snake match-up is pretty bad.

That's because it is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ally 4-0'd NickRiddle as well.

I hear ZSS mains saying the Snake matchup is pretty bad, too.

:V

Nick 2-0'd Ally the first time.

Not to john for Nick (this isn't exactly a john, more a potential explanation but whatever) but I think he was pretty intimidated by the M2k match-up and wasn't playing well; it's kind of nuts that he went from 2-0ing him to getting 4-0'd. Do keep in mind that he beat Fatal though and that Dazwa repeatedly beats Fatal, and that Fatal has a ton of MU experience and that he's probably Snake #2 in the country. You can't use one set to determine a match-up.

You're a really silly troll, Kitamerby. But you're still my favorite. <3

 

[Blacknight99923]

Not necessarily. Any argument you have for that would end up circular (Ie, say our match-ups were based off of how well you did vs. MK, because MK is the best character. But why is MK the best character? You have to be able to answer that without referencing MK himself, and if the tier list is based off that, you can't.)

Basically, when you create a tier list, you can't base it off of any assumptions or we run into logical loop holes. If Marth is not very good because of his match-up with MK, that's OK in our current system because it's based largely from tournament results we have to prove that a MK-centric metagame hurts Marth. In the proposed system it isn't OK, Marth is second even if he loses to MK.

Maybe I'm not making this clear enough, but for a system like that to work we need a base assumption SOMEWHERE. MK is the best, Ganon is the worst, whatever. But none of that is logical.

the tier list is opinion to begin with only the rankings are objectionable. when people consider whether or not a character is viable (based off opinion) and if yes/no to what degree the first thing you should look at is what are their high tier match ups? what are their bad match ups and how bad are they? and how much potential does this character have?

 

[Kitamerby]

Nick 2-0'd Ally the first time.

Ally's lost to ganondorfs in Winners brackets. Everybody knows Ally sandbags in winners. When they fought in losers, Ally swept him without letting him take a single game on any of his CPs.

Not to john for Nick (this isn't exactly a john, more a potential explanation but whatever) but I think he was pretty intimidated by the M2k match-up and wasn't playing well; it's kind of nuts that he went from 2-0ing him to getting 4-0'd. Do keep in mind that he beat Fatal though and that Dazwa repeatedly beats Fatal, and that Fatal has a ton of MU experience and that he's probably Snake #2 in the country. You can't use one set to determine a match-up.

It's hard kind of hard to john for ZSS on a laggy TV. :V

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's hard kind of hard to john for ZSS on a laggy TV. :V

You should do stand-up.

 

[Zero]

Nah, Ally 4-2 sandbagging Nick Riddle